So, I really feel like with all the added difficulty and other things to consider in this game: the alignment system being kinda difficult to manipulate on top of that can be a frustrating experience. It wasn't so bad in vanilla when alignment manipulation could be a big focus of your gameplay, but even then the things that would raise or lower your alignment were kinda asinine. Sure, killing holy things to become more evil and killing evil things to become more holy is straightforward in theory, but its pretty difficult to control which character in your squad gets the kill, and also pretty uncommon for the enemy (in this hack, anyway) to field purely holy or purely evil squads for you to manipulate alignment off of, and now that your army is spread out across the map, the players options in who fights whom are much more limited.
As such, I'd like to give the player more control over changes in alignment. Currently, my leading (really my only) idea in how to do this is to sprinkle +1 and -1 Ali growth properties onto thematically holy/evil pieces of equipment. Only trouble is I'm not sure I'm in love with how this would affect EQ choices. What do you think of this idea, or do you have some of your own?
Alignment Modifiers
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#2
- Casual Gamer
- Job: Member
- Posts: 103
16 September 2015 - 05:51 PM
Well, it's my first time commenting on your project, but, as someone who played Ogre Battle quite much, I can say that the alignment system is the thing I dislike the most about the game. The way it is conceived originally, you can totally destroy one of your character if you dont't know what your doing. Like tanking the ALI of Lans, thus complicating his Paladin progression, or go too low too fast with Warren, preventing him to become a Sorcerer. It usually happen because you use specific characters too much, which sucks because you should be able to use special characters as much as you want.
I understand the design behind this, which forces you to use different characters, but I dislike it nonetheless. It derives you from the actual gameplay and forces you to micro-manage in a boring way. Leaving the ALI progression in the hand of the player is a much better idea. Using an item to do so is a good concept, but you could also implement a natural ALI progression to classes, because, when you decide that one generic fighter become a Knight or a Wild Man, there is just no going back anyway in term of stats. You could simply state a minimum value to progress to the next tier but no maximum, thus preventing the possibilities of fucking up a character for a long time.
It also lets you choose freely if you want to go the Evil or Good way during the game. You could have units of different aligment in the same team without any problem. Just choose a low or high ALI character as a Leader to have the reputation you want, and that's it. Plus, having a generally low ALI team going the Good way or vice versa could be really cool, and would resonate with the logic of Tactics Ogre, where the Chaos way is actually the "Good way".
I understand the design behind this, which forces you to use different characters, but I dislike it nonetheless. It derives you from the actual gameplay and forces you to micro-manage in a boring way. Leaving the ALI progression in the hand of the player is a much better idea. Using an item to do so is a good concept, but you could also implement a natural ALI progression to classes, because, when you decide that one generic fighter become a Knight or a Wild Man, there is just no going back anyway in term of stats. You could simply state a minimum value to progress to the next tier but no maximum, thus preventing the possibilities of fucking up a character for a long time.
It also lets you choose freely if you want to go the Evil or Good way during the game. You could have units of different aligment in the same team without any problem. Just choose a low or high ALI character as a Leader to have the reputation you want, and that's it. Plus, having a generally low ALI team going the Good way or vice versa could be really cool, and would resonate with the logic of Tactics Ogre, where the Chaos way is actually the "Good way".
#3
- Casual Gamer
- Job: Member
- Posts: 114
17 September 2015 - 06:17 PM
I like the equipment idea if it isn't a pain for you to code. Or just having the Ali+ and Ali- consumables buyable dirt cheap.
#4
- Omnimodder
- Job: Hacker
- Posts: 1,733
20 September 2015 - 08:39 AM
Sorry for the late response, but I've been using this time to think more about alignment (while working on re-working old code, which tends not to warrant much in the way of updates). I've come up with a way for the Ali-altering weapons to work. Currently, your change in Ali from killing an enemy ranges from -3 to +3 based on the evilness/goodness of the class of the enemy you killed. It then also ranges by -3 to +3 based on your own Ali, with lower Ali getting a penalty and higher Ali getting a bonus. Evil EQ would cap this second value at -1, and Holy EQ would floor this second value at +1. So, if you're already good, using Holy EQ won't change anything, and the same for evil characters using Evil EQ. But if you're neutral or evil, Holy EQ will push you toward becoming good, and if you're neutral of good, Evil EQ will push you toward becoming evil. This gives the player a way to deliberately alter a character's Ali no matter where they fall on the spectrum. Though, it'll still take some time if you're looking to make a big adjustment, so it's best to stay ahead of the curve on where you want a character's Ali to be than to allow it to plummet to the depths or heavens.
I believe this is already the case for most classes. I assume you are referring to the infamous 10 Ali minimum on becoming a Mage, here? There are a few other instances of classes having both minimums and maximums, but usually those are neutral classes, whereas Mage is a largely evil class that for some reason just can't be *too* evil. OB64 does get rid of this minimum, and even extends the maximum, resulting in a 0-40 requirement. I might like this requirement better.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I like the idea of how Cha and Ali can provide added complexity to your decision in when to use whom. Though, as originally stated, I do think that stress is much too high right now.
I've had the same thought that the way OB handles the high and low Ali/Reputation path is much less interesting than the way some other games in the series handle it. I'd really like to flesh out the evil path more and make it more of legitimate choice. Especially since the evil path doesn't really offer the reward of having OP super units anymore. Technically, if you know the mechanics of the game, you could have OP super units with either path, but it tends to happen more with the evil path.
But creating a more legitimate evil path seems like a lot of work that would be best saved for a future update after a complete version of the game is created. I'm also not really sure how I would do it. I can think of a few ways to make it slightly better, but the main issue is that 90% of the playable characters are good guys and it wouldn't make much lore sense to change them into evil path characters.
...Actually, I did just have an idea. I could make some a bunch of the currently enemy-only characters join you if you are evil. That could be really cool. Though, it still falls under being a lot of design and code work, and is something I'd like to save for the future. It would also be a really cool incentive for people to replay the complete hack after they've already beaten it, so there's even more reason to save it for later.
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You could simply state a minimum value to progress to the next tier but no maximum, thus preventing the possibilities of fucking up a character for a long time.
I believe this is already the case for most classes. I assume you are referring to the infamous 10 Ali minimum on becoming a Mage, here? There are a few other instances of classes having both minimums and maximums, but usually those are neutral classes, whereas Mage is a largely evil class that for some reason just can't be *too* evil. OB64 does get rid of this minimum, and even extends the maximum, resulting in a 0-40 requirement. I might like this requirement better.
Quote
It usually happen because you use specific characters too much, which sucks because you should be able to use special characters as much as you want.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I like the idea of how Cha and Ali can provide added complexity to your decision in when to use whom. Though, as originally stated, I do think that stress is much too high right now.
Quote
Plus, having a generally low ALI team going the Good way or vice versa could be really cool, and would resonate with the logic of Tactics Ogre, where the Chaos way is actually the "Good way".
I've had the same thought that the way OB handles the high and low Ali/Reputation path is much less interesting than the way some other games in the series handle it. I'd really like to flesh out the evil path more and make it more of legitimate choice. Especially since the evil path doesn't really offer the reward of having OP super units anymore. Technically, if you know the mechanics of the game, you could have OP super units with either path, but it tends to happen more with the evil path.
But creating a more legitimate evil path seems like a lot of work that would be best saved for a future update after a complete version of the game is created. I'm also not really sure how I would do it. I can think of a few ways to make it slightly better, but the main issue is that 90% of the playable characters are good guys and it wouldn't make much lore sense to change them into evil path characters.
...Actually, I did just have an idea. I could make some a bunch of the currently enemy-only characters join you if you are evil. That could be really cool. Though, it still falls under being a lot of design and code work, and is something I'd like to save for the future. It would also be a really cool incentive for people to replay the complete hack after they've already beaten it, so there's even more reason to save it for later.
#5
- Novice
- Job: Member
- Posts: 79
24 September 2015 - 04:54 PM
Considering how the first couple of alignment points tend to be the hardest especially for the evil path, I'd recommend the opportunity to buy some cheap ALI-adjusting items at or near the start of the game. Maybe make it a one-time opportunity to help start the team along the path that you want them to go.
#6
- Casual Gamer
- Job: Member
- Posts: 103
24 September 2015 - 05:35 PM
zombero, on 20 September 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:
...Actually, I did just have an idea. I could make some a bunch of the currently enemy-only characters join you if you are evil. That could be really cool. Though, it still falls under being a lot of design and code work, and is something I'd like to save for the future. It would also be a really cool incentive for people to replay the complete hack after they've already beaten it, so there's even more reason to save it for later.
That actually would be awesome. There are a few of the map bosses that would be cool to have on your team. Having some of those evil generals would be a nice addition. It would kinda mirror the dragoons a good team can have.
zombero, on 20 September 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:
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You could simply state a minimum value to progress to the next tier but no maximum, thus preventing the possibilities of fucking up a character for a long time.
I believe this is already the case for most classes. I assume you are referring to the infamous 10 Ali minimum on becoming a Mage, here?
Yep, I'm reffering to the infamous 10 ALI minimum on becoming a mage. Going too low with Warren is something that happened to me. This should disappear from the game.
All in all, your equipment modifier seems to be a good way to avoid getting stuck with a character. The strength of this idea is that it involves some micromanaging, but not too much. It also respects how ALI was first conceived in the original game.
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