Insane Difficulty: Help a (almost) beginner forming his party - Insane Difficulty

Hello guys,

I'm going to my second try at the 1.3, and I'd appreciate very much any help with some doubts I have, so I won't get stuck at Zalmo again.

In my last play, my party consisted of a thief with jump and equip lance, a knight with throw item, a archer Ramza with knight's break skill, a mage with both black and white magics, and a desperate try with a sage. What was wrong and where can I improve?

But the biggest reason that made me create some courage to create a post, was asking you guys about cool setups so I can get to the latter stages of the game. Setups like my lancer thief, or a Mustadio ninja that I saw in another topic. I really need setups like this to create a base on and gain some consistency through the game. I know that it would be best if I tested and struggled and things like that, but I'm really asking for help.

And a last request that I'd like to make it's on information about which class should I level with, when I want a good growth on speed? And PA? Or what about MA as well? I tried to learn the growings by myself, but I failed...

I thank you all very much for any help that you can give me.

PS.: I'm brazilian, please ignore my grammar errors

What I can see that is wrong with your last plays party is in my opinion a few things.

Thief is better off stealing and reviving with items, I never use them to attack, I'd rather try for a steal heart.
And If I ever pair Lancer with Thief, I usually make a Lancer with Steal Ability rather than the other way around.

Archer Ramza with knight skills doesn't have any way to revive other party members and I feel he's best as a Squire always.
And because the Knight already has Break Skills I don't really think you need two characters with it.

Black/White Mage is a decent build but this character was probably held back by the rest of the party failing to keep it alive.
Also having to juggle between dealing damage and reviving party members it would be quite a hard task for this character.

The Knight with throw item lacks speed and isn't the greatest item user, other than surviving to revive a fast character.
Their obviously good at blocking a lot but they also can't move very far and its hard getting a few hits off.

And Sage like the Black/White Mage can also be great if used properly in some areas, but they're also slow and hard to keep alive.
I wouldn't recommend using this character in every boss battle because it always must be protected and the charge time takes a while.

All together I think your team was lacking speed and the ability to revive your party quickly.
The Knight, Archer, Sage and Black Mage are all very slow characters the only fast one you had is a thief.
And your only fast character wasn't able to revive others so I can see that being a major problem.
If your Black Mage was a White Mage it would've been a little bit faster and maybe able to help revive.
Also if your Ramza was a Squire or using Guts he would have the ability to Haste other party members and Revive.
Not sure if only those minor changes would make much of a difference but it's all I can think of at the moment.

Sorry for not covering the rest of the topic I have place to be, hopefully I was able to give some good advice.

As for growths, for what you mentioned:

Speed = Thief
PA = Knight
MA = Wizard

The best classes to level in (because of their overall growths) are Oracle and Mime, Mime being the better one of the two by only one growth (and a negligible difference at that).

You can check this info by using FFTPatcher and opening your patched ISO from there, going to the Jobs tab, looking up the generic jobs, and checking their respective growths (regarding growths: the lower, the better; regarding multipliers: the higher, the better).

Your team doesn't seem bad, but perhaps it would go a lot smoother with more practice so you can get better at executing your battle plans mid-battle, and adapting to the circumstances that arise. As it was pointed out, you might want to use faster methods for revival. The Knight, while sturdy and potentially dodgy, can prove to be a very slow unit and might not be able to get the other units up at the right moment. Your mage with both black and white magic could be really good, as long as it has Short Charge, and even then, you still have to time it (if you can somehow make that particular unit go right after the enemy is done with their round of turns, so your short charged spells can go faster).

As for the Thief... well, perhaps using Equip Axe could do the trick for powerful jumps. Taking advantage of the Thief's speed, plus having access to PA gear, and being able to equip yourself an axe (which has good attack power, and Jump's formula will make sure that the damage is consistent with the weapon's WP, as opposed to the random-ish damage axes deal when executing normal attacks) could make your thief a fast killing machine.

Here's my two cents from one relative newb to another. I'm going to echo what some others have said in that you should probably consider getting some more reliable revival abilities somewhere on your team. Throw Item Knight isn't bad early game (Chapter 1-2) but it is slow and falls off once enemies start getting more speed. White Magic is a really good skillset too, but with your team having a lack of revival as is, you might not always have the time to get off a Life/Full-Life when you really need to. Also, since this is one of your main damage dealers as well you're forced to pick between keeping an offense going or revival whenever this situation comes about, which can land you in a loop of reviving very quickly. There's no shortage of good skillsets with revival abilities (Punch Art, Guts, White Magic, Summon Magic. Item) so try to fit some more of those in there somewhere.

I like having Ramza as a caster for most of the game, but there's nothing wrong with physical either. I don't think Battle Skill is very good generally unless you have a specific use in mind for it (breaking the stats of a boss, for example). Guts might not be a bad choice so you can take advantage of the awesome support options it has like Yell, Wish, Cheer Up, etc.

When you're using high level magic (Summons, Planar Magic, etc.) Short Charge is almost mandatory to make the most of it, so you'll definitely want to grab that for any caster that you use. It's not as important for small spells like Haste or Paralyze though. Speaking of which, status is your friend for Chapters 1-3. A well timed Paralyze or Sleep can do wonders, especially since the enemy tends to be as strong or stronger than you in most cases, and you're generally outnumbered. Confusion is pretty great as well. For damage I think Summon Magic starts to outshine Black Magic eventually, but they both have uses (Black is great for high single target damage, Summons for nuking an AoE).

The biggest thing I could say is that it helps to be flexible in your thinking. If one strategy isn't working, try to tweak it and see if you can't come out on top. Sometimes a win can be as easy as adjusting your speed stat a little bit, whereas other times you might need to try a totally different setup. Also I wouldn't be too concerned with leveling. Leveling up a lot will only hurt you in the long run unless you go all the way to 99 since enemies will always be at your level or better, and they will get much better gear than you if you level too high. In fact, it's honestly better to stay at as low a level as possible because attacking magic kind of sucks at high levels.

Nefarious, on 16 January 2017 - 11:43 PM, said:

Don't worry for not covering all, it was really helpful. The strategy that involves my Ramza, it's about trying to break the weapon of dangerous units, like Algus, but I really understand what I'm missing without Guts. My lancer thief has always been my greatest weapon, so I'm actually sad that it didn't impressed you guys :/ . I'll try to solve my speed problem, but I'm not sure that I can work my way out exploring FFTPatcher or figuring speedy builds on my own.

Laith, on 17 January 2017 - 02:16 AM, said:

I'll try to use FFTPatcher again, but I was totally lost last time I tried. The vanilla it's probably the game which I spent most time in my life, but I'm totally hopeless when it comes down to the advanced mechanics. I've been told to use FFTPatcher before, but like I said, I got confused, that's why I asked about the growths directly, (and thank you for that info). But I'll try again.

Laith, on 17 January 2017 - 02:16 AM, said:

If I use jump with a weapon other than lance, I'll be losing a 1.5 multiplier in the damage formula, so it won't be so useful.

Razz, on 17 January 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

The strategy that involves my Ramza, was about trying to break the weapon of dangerous units, like Algus, but I soon became very fond of it, trying to break weapons all the time.

Razz, on 17 January 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

With all you speaking about it, I can imagine how big my revival problem is. I'll try figure out new builds to work on, but I'm not sure. I've looked for something like this all over the forum and found nothing. I know it's a bit of a shortcut, but how you can see, I'm no expert.

I'm too lazy to read all of this (most of the shit posted in the 1.3 forum is generally similar to shit that's been posted in the past, so...) But I basically disagree with everything Nefarious said.

First of all, thieves make excellent combatants. The difference between a 2 swords thief and a concentrate ninja is pretty minimal, maybe a point less PA, and obviously no throw. But for battles when you want to steal something, or if you want to get jp for thieves, this is a good setup for a fast beater. The difference betweenconcentrate marksmen and equip bow thief is similarly minor, where you trade a skill set that is imo pretty weak and situational, and is better on an either an axe wielder (timed strike) or a 2 swords user (mocking strike for zodiacs), for steal. Now, a thief is a slightly worse combatant than a ninja or a marksmen, dont get me wrong, but the difference is so minor that even just hoping to steal random loot isn't a bad idea.

I don't think Ramza is always better as a squire, but archer kinda sucks. Especially later.

Black/White is a good setup for the first three chapters (but summon is probably better). Black magic is less good later, but whatever. Saying "it's not good to pull double duty" is wrong, having options is always good.

Knights are one of the best item users in the game. High hp means that not only does your character not die as fast, it means they dont get targeted. Having a dedicated healer using item/white magic in the knight job is perfectly valid.

After these points, he's actually got most of it right. So, that's the end of me disputing him.

But,the fact that you were talking about your party setup is the red flag. Having a "party setup" any more specific than "Ramza, a male generic,and 3 females" is a recipe for disaster (and even that is more specific than I recommend for a new player). On some battles, you might want 5 thieves with item. Some you may want a ninja, a knight, and 3 white magic oracles. Sometimes, you might want 5 different jobs with 5 different secondaries, with no overlap at all.

Romani, on 17 January 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

I think 1.3 got rid of this. I feel like the modifier is either gone or it applies to everything, but I can't remember for sure.

Also, if want to break weapons at range (a niche role, that is the perfect unit for a all around support role) something like a chemist with battle skill would be better. Shooting weapon breaks at people, throwing items, maybe stick equip shield or a defup ability. Honestly, tho, breaking weapons is pretty weak. Fists don't do a whole lot less. The best weapons to beeak are 2 swords/2 hands units, because a 2 sword unit wont punch with his empty fist, and a 2 hands unit obviously just straight up loses his support.

Perhaps you could've played with it a little bit between the time you were told to check it out and this time. Don't misunderstand, we're here to help and answer your questions, but it's a lot faster for you to have this information readily available. Plus, it will give way for more advanced questions to arise. Of course, I'm not saying you should just understand it and that's it; it does take some getting used to.

That being said, it's obviously not necessary for you to check it out, it just makes certain things a bit smoother (like knowing that jumping with an axe does work here, as opposed to vanilla mechanics, which you already seem familiar with).

Also something that Kjata brought up and will expand according to my experience with the mod: you're probably better off experimenting with different stuff (if you don't check patcher, this is one good way to draw conclusions from quite a lot of stuff), as the mindset of having just one build (more often than not, a vanilla mindset) will most likely prove to be a nuisance (unless you're purposefully going for a one build challenge). You're supposed to adapt to battles as they come (within your possibilities) and clear them that way. Then again, this will also depend on how well you execute your strategy.

Kjata, on 17 January 2017 - 10:56 PM, said:

In his defense, I don't think that's what he was saying. I took that as saying with his current setup of Knight/Wizard as his only means of revival that he could pretty easily land in a loop considering how often you're outsped, outnumbered, and outgeared. Offense, and especially AoE is so vital Ch1-3 that having to spend a lot of turns with your one AoE unit not dealing damage will lose you the fight more often than not, or at the very least, give you a ton of unnecessary trouble. Hence the reason that so many people suggested putting more reliable means of recovery on some of his units. Black/White is fine but the implications in OPs case seem to suggest that he has to play the unit like a healer with some offense rather than an offense unit with good healing/support abilities, which doesn't synergize as well with his team that lacks solid offense.

If you head on over to the Guide Tab at the top of the site Romani there are plenty of resources that can answer your mechanic based questions. I agree however that it's probably better to just try stuff out for yourself and see what fits your playstyle firsthand. Theorizing will only get you so far after all.

What went wrong with the Sage by the way? I definitely think they have one of the stronger skillsets in 1.3 so I'm curious why that didn't work out.

Razz, on 18 January 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

You know, you are probably right. I was focusing more on Nef's post when i was starting mine, so him saying "that unit is bad in this specific team" looked like "this unit is bad." Plus the fact that 1.3 101 is "don't use the same team, god damn it," sorta leads me to think advice given is more general than it may be.

Razz, on 18 January 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

I'm not sure who or what the question is directed toward, but I'm going to answer anyway. Sage's are, on paper, a very strong unit. But they are sort of a crutch. If you can't win, they are a god send, but if you can they sort of just get in the way. When a good sleep2 is the difference between winning and losing, they are a ton of fun. When it's the difference between winning and winning harder, they are boring.

And they are useless for the really hard battles (unless your sage is named Beowulf).

FWIW, the lance still gives the 1.5x bonus on Jump, but some weapons are better for jumping with anyway.

As a fairly new player myself I can say I do a lot better with teams where everyone has access to some kind of recovery.

You have white magic, guts, punch art, summon, item and talk which all grant access to some kind of recovery.

Make sure compatibility matches. For example your summoner should have decent compatability with everyone as their recover is AoE. Combos should have good compatability with eachother (see below for example.) Also take into consideration the zodiac signs of some bosses; if a certain boss were to wear a full suit of badass armor, then it might be a good idea to give your thief maximum chance of stealing from people with their particular zodiac sign. Likewise, if one should find oneself in a situation where one has to face a boss alone, one might want zodiac signs in ones favor.

For a thief I would suggest using Equip Bow with a bow or Two Swords with daggers or ninja swords. Thieves have the highest speed in the game and all of these weapons are based on speed. Since this makes PA irrelevant I would suggest a female, so as to have more targets for and better odds with Steal Heart. They also make good use of the Reraise ability from the talk skill, (especially if female) as they usually go first (I like to make my thief put reraise on my samurai right as the battle begins, then teleport the samurai into the middle of the enemies and use Draw Out. I make sure my samurai and thief have good/best compatability for this reason.) I suppose you could also put Equip Armor on them to make them way more tanky and profit from the Carabini Mail's +1 speed.

Kjata, on 18 January 2017 - 02:56 AM, said:

I was referring to the OP but this is a good analysis either way. I'm going into C4 myself so I'll have to remember this.

Djarnis said:

Actually Bows/Hidden Knives use [PA+SP]/2 so PA isn't exactly useless. Equip Bow on Theives is still pretty decent, especially around C2 when you first get your hands on the Arbalest. I don't usually use bows late game but I'm sure you could just fine if that's your thing. I agree with having good compatibility with your team of generics though; no one wants to miss a Revive at the crucial moment forcing a restart.

I won't reply everyone individually because it would get confusing, but I want you to know that I really appreciate all the help and attention. I know it's probably annoying to see beginners asking for help all the time, but I really looked for answers through the forum and found nothing.

The important is that I got the main message:

- I'll rotate the team, but I know I'll get problems with levels while grinding for JP
- I'll make the team faster, even though I won't be able to do a big improvement by myself
- I'll get more revive options, probably double my actual options

About the sage, my spells never landed, and the lack of speed didn't help. But I'll try do better this time.

About the jump, Stann, Kjata and Laith are differing on opinions, so I'll try to see for myself.

And Kjata really changed the course of the conversation, going against what the others were saying. I'll not discard anything of either sides, trying to assimilate everyting said here, every reply and every tip.

Thank you all again.

Romani, on 20 January 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

Don't worry about it. I am not active in here because my memory is shoddy, and my opinions should be likewise so in this case, but that's irrelevant.

We like new blood here. When we don't like things in here (on ID as a whole), it becomes obvious very quickly.

Jumping Thief is fine, but go for Axes.

Spears still have a 1.5x multiplier on Jump but Axes are one of the weapon types that if you do some math, you realize that e.g Golem Axe has an effective power of an 11 WP spear and gives you a massive +3 PA on top as well.