[Anima Zero]

While my main party doesn't stray much from Ryu, Garr, and Rei...I'd sooner put in Momo before ever using Nina.

The main reason? I absolutely HATE Nina's frailty. She's liable to die in a stiff breeze from physicals and magic damage tends to suck in the late game. It also doesn't help her case that any master that boosts intelligence also boasts penalties to hp, defense, or a combination of the two. The same can be said for apprenticing her to someone that gives bonuses to hp and/or defense (Penalties to intelligence, AP, or even both).

As for Momo, sure her physical accuracy is less than adequate, but so is Garr's to an extent (Not as bad as Momo's, but it's noticable). The solution to both character's accuracy problems? Artemis' Cap and/or D'lonzo!

Besides that, Momo has healing, buffs, and some offensive magic and isn't going to fold instantly from a couple physicals.

If anything, Nina desperately needs a HP/Defense buff before even considering how to shuffle her skills around.

[XtraT]

Giving Nina much better defensive stats and/or make her debuff spells work on bosses (and maybe make them unique to her) would be a good step forward.

[BTB]

Well, technically, I use Momo more because I'm *forced* to use her more. But as an actual ally, I find her to be the weakest. She can't hit the broad side of a fucking barn, and her support magic doesn't come in very handy in random battles since she's not one of the two faster characters. What would really help her out is an "aiming" ability that costs, say, 2 AP and raises her accuracy to 100%.

As for Nina, all she really needs is for most of the offensive spells to have their power bumped up a bit. I have no problems with her as a squishy mage, but her offensive output needs to offset her squishiness.

[Advent]

maxi, on 04 October 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Ryu i tend to mostly use as meelee fighter, because i want to save his APs for kicking boss behind in dragonform (where he becomes mostly a breath user until Warrior gene becomes available, then it's back to meelee).
Generally try to avoid using his heals unless i <really> need to.
Once tried him as a caster, but there is simply not enough variety in skill-inkable spells.

This is something I found myself looking at yesterday. I might consider buffing his AP pool because of design philosophy for bosses. I guess I can go ahead and share some of this here.

What I want to do -- and Emitai agrees with this -- is balance bosses based on assumption that Ryu will be using his Dragon Form when at all possible. This accomplishes two things: it makes sure that Accession isn't going to break the fight, and it provides an additional optional difficulty level for those who want a bigger challenge by not using Accession.

Of course, this will be done in such a way that it won't cause bosses to pick the other characters off like flies.

maxi, on 04 October 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Rei - always wanted to use his lightning magic, but since he joins so late and has so few AP, and since his Weretiger form + Influence is so good, he always ends up going that route

I want to do something kind of similar with Rei. The bosses in Dragon Trial are going to definitely keep you on your toes; there's going to be a clear-cut choice with Weretiger. You'll either lose control of him for pure damage (pure damage is going to see a massive nerf in effectiveness; some bosses you just won't be able to burst down) or you can keep control of him to help your group stay alive.

maxi, on 04 October 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Nina - straight up dps caster and good replacement for Teepo. Don't think she really needs any other role, though. Would appreciate more ways of dealing damage, however. Not just typhoon / sirocco. Supporting the team's damage capabilities through AtkUp buffs and the like can also be good for her.

She will be able to heal, albeit probably not as well as Momo. I detest single-minded design philosophy, which is why I'm planning on balancing out some of the defensive capabilities.

maxi, on 04 October 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Garr - can use fire magic, but i just could never bring myself to appretice him to anything magic-ey. 255 Beast Spear ultimately rules the day for me when it comes to Garr. Would prefer to see him use Breath magics as these are mostly hp based and don't require that much sacrifice of combat stats.

Garr's gonna have a few healing magics. And by that I mean the only thing agreed on at present is that he will have sandbag capabilities.

maxi, on 04 October 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Gotta say that Garr's casting animation is pretty badass, though, and it would be a shame if there was no place for it. He could get some apocalyptic spells that drain all of his mana for epic effects. Something like FF7's Phoenix could really work for him

If you've played Vanish's Golden Sun mods I plan on giving him something like Garet has; a revival fire spell.

maxi, on 04 October 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

P.S: surprisingly enough, Rule 34 failed on Momo x Nina
However, was surprised how much of this is floating around.

This is your first failure, so you are forgiven.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

The main reason? I absolutely HATE Nina's frailty. She's liable to die in a stiff breeze from physicals and magic damage tends to suck in the late game. It also doesn't help her case that any master that boosts intelligence also boasts penalties to hp, defense, or a combination of the two. The same can be said for apprenticing her to someone that gives bonuses to hp and/or defense (Penalties to intelligence, AP, or even both).

This is something that we have talked about and most definitely will be addressed, but more than likely as a result her defense will be superior to Ryu's in the early game.

Nina absolutely will not be viable if I don't buff her defense up and switch around her abilities a bit.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

If anything, Nina desperately needs a HP/Defense buff before even considering how to shuffle her skills around.

Gonna be all of the above there.

[Advent]

XtraT, on 04 October 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Giving Nina much better defensive stats and/or make her debuff spells work on bosses (and maybe make them unique to her) would be a good step forward.

Debuffs and statii as a whole are going to be a ton more viable in the grand scheme of things. I know where enemy resistances are located (though I will admit I haven't looked for bosses yet, but I assume they're the same deal).

[Archael]

IIRC there's an accessory that makes Momo more accurate.

Also, Momo has buffing / debuffing magic, which compliments what Ryu can do really well.

Nina is good for her speed, but she's too squishy and always needs to be in the back row.

[Angel]

kyozo22, on 03 October 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

Besides, come on! A freaking mutant onion. How could you not like that?

Because onions belong on my sub, not in my party.

[XtraT]

BTB, on 04 October 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

But as an actual ally, I find her to be the weakest.

Now now let's not be absurd, Momo is the best caster in BoF 3.

1) Superior stats than Nina in every way other than AGL (useless stat when you're humping the floor)

2) Hits like a truck (an Artemis cape makes her hit % pretty high+her weapons hit weaknesses)

3) Has access to great buff spells+strong enough magic spells for random battles.

4) You can give her a 100% critical/accuracy hit skill for 8 AP with Shadowwalk(Ryu doesn't need it, he has Aura. Rei doesn't need it, he has Werewolf. Garr doesn't need it because he sucks and doesn't have the AP. Peco doesn't have the AP)

[BTB]

Archael, on 04 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

IIRC there's an accessory that makes Momo more accurate.

Yeah, she still blows ass even with the Artemis Cap.

Archael, on 04 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Also, Momo has buffing / debuffing magic, which compliments what Ryu can do really well.

Bebuff magic is tricky to balance, because you've got to create situations where it would be useful without being overpowered. And that means either having monsters that are pumped enough for it to be worth your time, or have it work on bosses.

Archael, on 04 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Nina is good for her speed, but she's too squishy and always needs to be in the back row.

The magic formation pretty much exists for her, so you've got to balance it with her in mind.

XtraT, on 04 October 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Now now let's not be absurd, Momo is the best caster in BoF 3.

1) Superior stats than Nina in every way other than AGL (useless stat when you're humping the floor

Nina also ends up with more raw magic power. The idea is to combine it with her first-strike capabilities to end fights before they become a threat.

XtraT, on 04 October 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

2) Hits like a truck (an Artemis cape makes her hit % pretty high+her weapons hit weaknesses)

Momo hits like a runaway truck on four bald tires in the middle of a snowstorm >.>

XtraT, on 04 October 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

4) You can give her a 100% critical/accuracy hit skill for 8 AP with Shadowwalk(Ryu doesn't need it, he has Aura. Rei doesn't need it, he has Werewolf. Garr doesn't need it because he sucks and doesn't have the AP. Peco doesn't have the AP)

Momo needs a much cheaper option to be accurate in normal combat than 8 AP.

[Emitai]

BTB, on 04 October 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Momo hits like a runaway truck on four bald tires in the middle of a snowstorm >.>

[Emitai]

well, about rei's magic. since his int is very low and i dont agree with buffing his int to the point to compete with nina in my view is better give him skills that help him do physical damage (i see rei like an assassin/thief), i have in mind skills that escale with agi but i dont know if advent can do it. About weretiger, if advent find the data of weretiger is a good way rei lose some def on this form

[Angel]

BTB, on 04 October 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Momo hits like a runaway truck on four bald tires in the middle of a snowstorm >.>

Too much credit given here.

[XtraT]

Quote

Nina also ends up with more raw magic power.

She doesn't. At lvl 50 Nina has 181 int. Momo has 215.

Quote

Momo hits like a runaway truck on four bald tires in the middle of a snowstorm >.>

but wrong. At lvl 50 she only has 31 less PWR than Ryu. With Shadowwalk best used by her, she does incredible single target damage for all the buffs and heals she can do.

Quote

Momo needs a much cheaper option to be accurate in normal combat than 8 AP.

Nah, she has tons of natural AP (about as much as Ryu). 8 AP is very cheap for a 100% critical hit.

[Advent]

BTB, on 04 October 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Momo hits like a runaway truck on four bald tires in the middle of a snowstorm >.>

Physics states that that's pretty fucking accurate barring D'lonzo and the Artemis Cap. You can't steer in that situation, but given that the road is effectively on ice and you have zero traction, whoever you hit is gonna have their day absolutely fucking ruined.

It also says she's absurdly powerful. That analogy might be more accurate for Berserk Kaiser.

[Angel]

[Archael]

I think debuff magic was done very well in BOF3, because you can have an PWR DOWN status that will never lower the target's stat to 0.

Shouldn't be impossible to balance?

Also I think effects like Last Resort (Defense added to Power, Defense = 0) are awesome.

[Advent]

Archael, on 04 October 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

I think debuff magic was done very well in BOF3, because you can have an PWR DOWN status that will never lower the target's stat to 0.

Shouldn't be impossible to balance?

Also I think effects like Last Resort (Defense added to Power, Defense = 0) are awesome.

Well yeah, what I meant was making it capable of actually hitting bosses.

[Angel]

Mmmm. Debuff those bosses? I could go for some of that.

[BTB]

Archael, on 04 October 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Also I think effects like Last Resort (Defense added to Power, Defense = 0) are awesome.

Last Resort was a pretty sweet attack, I'll agree.

Pretty much every end-game setup involved a very broken combination of Last Resort, Resist, the chain formation, and Rei.

[Advent]

Let me shed a little light on the melee Momo topic here.

Momo has 70 base accuracy. This is the lowest in the game.

D'Lonzo gives +5 as long as you're under him.

Artemis Cap gives +10, bringing her to 85 accuracy, which is still lower than every other character. I'd like to give the Artemis Cap at least 5 more accuracy, bringing Momo in line with Garr and Peco when under D'Lonzo since her weapons are going to be where most of her power comes from.

I just took a glance at the Artemis Cap and there is a ton of data compared to other items right in the middle of there, I'm guessing because it affects a hidden stat.

I think I might be looking at its accuracy value, assuming it's in big endian. We'll see here in a little bit.

~

I hit with Momo 40/50 times with the Artemis Cap, which turns out to be 80%, which.. is the normal boost.

I'm gonna guess that clusterfuck of data is how the game runs the accuracy formula, and I haven't the slightest idea how to crack it.