Insane Difficulty: Who's Your MVP? - Insane Difficulty

I wanted to hold off on doing this until the first wave of players made it to the end of the game, lest people write off the late-game characters as useless based on their limited interactions with them early on.

Anyhow, one of the things we tried our damndest to do in this mod is make every character useful, and I'd like to think we've accomplished that. Just about everyone on this list was considered the "best" character at some point in development before appropriate measures were taken to bring them back in line, and ideally there should be no clear winner in this poll.

Umaro FTW

I voted for Strago, as his Lores are really useful. Black Omen is also extremely powerful when you get it, and it continues to be good for the rest of the game. He does good damage, has full-party safe, a reasonable heal spell, and can x-magic shell. (It's a bit annoying that even with how much weaker the gem box effects are now you still can't summon an esper with it equipped; otherwise he would also have full-party shell from Zoneseek.) Then he can also restore his own mana.

It wasn't super easy to pick, though. I felt by the end of the game Strago, Terra, Celes, and Sabin were quite a bit better than most of the other characters, and it wasn't hard at all to pick them as my starting lineup for Kefka. (I was trying to keep levels relatively balanced among my characters as well.) Having a massive MP pool is extremely useful (turns out magic is good) which is why Terra and Celes are so good. Sabin had a massive HP total and Bum Rush is one of the most reliable sources of damage there is, so that's why he got the nod.

Setzer became quite powerful right at the end with the fixed dice; up until that point he was fairly mediocre.

Edgar, while strong early on, fell off a bit at the end as his tools became a bit weak. He lacked much utility with his spells, so he ended up as a bit of a dumb damage dealer. Sabin had the same role, but Bum Rush did triple the damage Edgar did.

Cyan was fine, but never exciting. For some reason most of his Bushidos seem really underpowered, with the exception of #5. In fact even against multiple targets I usually just ended up using #5, as for instance the damage on #6 was so low. Of course #8 was great whenever it wasn't resisted, but at the end of the game this was really inconsistent. Bushido #5 also usually did more damage than #7, even to a single target.

Gau is great early on, but by the end of the WoR he was just junk. Occasionally there was a particularly relevant rage, but by the end so many enemies resisted his attacks that weren't just damage. Repo man often seemed like the best option, and this was still doing far less damage than the better characters, despite having to give up control over him.

Relm was good but a bit too fragile to really be top tier. She was also really painful to keep leveled up until unlocking Bahamut; sketch is still a terrible ability. Physical attacks from sketch never did enough damage to matter, and spells were often resisted or absorbed by the enemy.

Mog was fine with his dances. Again it is often the case that many of the abilities just miss, which makes their randomness really annoying. This kept me from wanting him in my party aside from trying to keep his levels up.

Umaro was worthless. Without esper leveling his stats weren't even that great, and he did less damage than most of the better controlled characters.

Locke was OK, but again never exciting. While his spell selection is reasonable, he didn't really have the stats or MP to put it to much use.

Gogo was exactly what he was supposed to be, as a good utility character. His stats meant in any party he would probably only be the 2nd best member at best.

I didn't keep Shadow leveled up enough to really evaluate him; I didn't like what I saw enough at early levels to give him a chance, though. He and Umaro were the two left behind when I went to Kefka's tower.

Obob, on 31 July 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

I wish all of the feedback we got looked like this.

I'm also pondering that perhaps Bushido #7 (Tempest) might need a slight power boost.

Sabin is the best character. Sabin is the best character because he can not die. Sabin is the best character because he can tank, support, and deal damage on whim as needed. Sabin is the best character because he can supplex everything. Lets look at these one at a time and really digest them.

Sabin can not die. A stamina based Sabin will quickly reach a high enough Stamina that a Life Bell will restore around 200 HP every tick. For the early part of the game the 200 HP is so much that nothing can really keep up. An enemy hit Sabin for 300? It suddenly became 100! An enemy hit Sabin for 500? It just became 300? No investment need, no heal spells required (note that this is very useful in early WoB when it is just Celes and Sabin). Later on, enemies hit harder, but spell animations are also longer. This means that while the ticks don't heal much more, the ticks happen more frequently. It is not uncommon, late in the game, to have a regen tick after every single action. I've had many instances where the turn went something like: Sabin took 1,200 damage, heals 200, uses Bum Rush, heals 200, someone uses Flare, heals 200, someone uses a quick action, Strago uses Dark Omen, heals 200, enemies turn and Sabin only took a net damage of 400.

The above paragraph is something anyone with a high Stamina can do, not just Sabin. If that was it, it would be a problem with Regen being too powerful. No, that is just part of Sabin's immense abilities. Sabin has a powerful skill in Blitz, which allows him to act as anything you really need. Lets look at this one at a time.

Support: Sabin has two powerful Blitz in Chakra and Mantra (note that these require Stamina to be used effectively). With these Blitz, Sabin can not only heal the party's HP, but their MP as well at no cost to resources. It does not cost precious Gil, and it does not cost MP and it hits everyone else that wants HP and MP right when they need it. This is compounded by the fact that Mantra heals based off of his HP and if you have Stamina you should have a Life Bell, which means you have auto-Regen, which means that you tend to get the full effect of Mantra. By comparison, Setzer is the only other character that can restore a party's HP at no cost, on whim, when they need it. And he doesn't restore as much AND can't restore MP when they need it too.

Damage: A stamina based Sabin uses Aurabolt for damage, which is useful because Aurabolt ignores row and makes Regen that much better. You should reach 90 stamina around level 30 and any stamina beyond that is overkill. From there, you can start pumping into Sabin's Vigor and max HP. To give an idea of how powerful Bum Rush is, consider this: Bum Rush with no Vigor investment (but with Atlas Armlet) deals more damage than a 99 Stamina Aurabolt (unless they are weak to Holy). Once you start adding Vigor, Bum Rush quickly increases in damage and reaches other characters' damage, while surpassing others. The biggest thing to note is that this all happens without sacrificing any of Sabin's support ability.

Tank: Sabin has naturally high HP and a decent armor pool that allows him to tank, even from front row, after some max HP investment. This is, of course, partly because of the whole Regen thing mentioned early. Just felt like it was important to mention the last part of the triangle before concluding.

Sabin can supplex anything. Trains doesn't even begin to describe it.

In short, Sabin is the best character because he can do anything you need, when you need it, without risking death, at no cost to items or MP or random chance.


Edit: feel like I may as well add, other consistently strong characters would include Strago, Celes, Shadow, and Relm. I can go into detail if you would like, but right now, I have to go to work.

Celes. She has way too much synergy with every party setup to not be one of the best characters. Float is useful for some of the really annoying battles that have earth based attacks, you negate far too much damge for this not to be useful. Haste is nice as well. The reason I ultimately say Celes, is because Sabin is kinda weak early on, Celes is not.

Need cured status? Got it. Need a tank? Sure. Need a decent healer? Sure, she can do that too. Most importantly, need to stop awful status effects from hitting you? That's there too. She carried me through so many tight spots, and Runic is really good because a lot of that stuff I don't want to be hit by is able to be runic'D. And with Runic, other characters can realistically funnel MP back to her for free and keep the party running strong. And Celes Vigor build hits pretty darn hard. Not Locke hard, but Locke does this at the expense of a crappier gear pool.

I'd say Sabin for a second pick (and it is not by much that he loses either). But it has to be support build Sabin. High Vigor Sabin is good, no doubt, but Chakra and Mantra are great. Too great to ignore this. On the downside, you cannot target things with Sabin for some of his earlier blitz, and it takes awhile for him to reach the level to be a great support. It's a shame Sabin doesn't have access to HasteX. On a run down from the characters. Either way, I'm perfectly happy with Vigor Sabin because he hits like a damn truck, and between Runic and Chakra, Celes can keep Sabin from dying from magic and he can in turn give her some MP when she needs it.



Terra - Celes with more defensive moves. I had a Mag/Stamina Terra, and it was glorious when she morphed. She was decent at moments, but the other characters are useful enough that she shines a hell of a lot less than she did before. Still, Morph is incredible for bosses.

Locke - Great early on. He's the fastest character and pretty much does the damage over time. He doesn't on turns, but he does tend to fade out after awhile. Even his special defense ignoring weapon doesn't matter, because in this hack, low hp% is a death sentence. With stamina being more prominent and good, who the hell wants to have low hp? Locke's best point is when that blood sword becomes available. What a badass. The best healer in the game, but still not a great support do to the lack of buffing spells. Never used his offensive spells, and they kinda don't help him too much because of that lame MP pool.

Edgar - The tools fall off the face of the planet in terms of damage, so they are still like they were in vanilla. The only big difference is that Flash stays completely relevant with the effects it has. I will state that Jump still does some rocking damage though, so this pretty much makes him the Jump man. I will say that his spell list is pretty cruddy though.

Sabin - I already praised Sabin. He's good either way. Either one works, overall.

Shadow - HasteX, RegenX, go. He's fine. He's a bit brittle, but his damage is good, so who cares. Has some relevant spells to always be useful like Safe to help his durability. He's fast and can attack from the back too so that's always nice. Strong but not invincible.

Cyan - Starts out really strong and kinda fades. He's pretty self-sufficient though. His later swordtechs do seem a bit weak though. 5 is honestly the strongest one in terms of damage. MindBlow is nice at moments as you can make certain bosses a complete joke with that move. Kefka comes to mind.

Gau - I felt that Gau was just plain weak. Some of the rages are nice early on, but it is not worth having someone that fragile on the team that I cannot control at all. Later on he's just god awful. I had the misfortune of bringing him on the boss for Relm and he was just useless as all get out.

Celes - Great unit. I already talked about her.

Setzer - I'm good with slots so I thought he was really good, and mucking up on purpose for free heals that did around 300+ was awesome. If he had a slot that could restore MP he'd be perfect for support. I had Shoat on a long time so Blackjack was doing ridiculous amounts of damage.

Mog - I don't think he's powerful enough. Dances can be nice at moments, but at first his magic section is too small to make use of that awesome magic stat. One problem is that you either do strong dances or are able to consistently do them. he didn't see my party much.

Strago - Weak early on, but his spells get really freaking useful overall. Raid is just sick for keeping him to keep using nice spells like Black Omen and Raze. Awesome unit. He's slow...? Haste. He's normal speed.

Relm - Like Strago except with less versatility and a little more frail. Unlike Strago, she isn't forced long enough to get something decent when you first get her, so she's just lame until then. She can make a good MP battery for Celes with sketch for the time that she isn't that good though, so that's always an option.

Gogo Anything you are missing. Sure, his stats are kinda lame, but that doesn't matter, he can still do a lot of other move-sets that you may be missing.

Umaro - Not worth it. Just plain not worth it. He needs to hit harder if he's going to be out of my control. At least Gau can cast spells for free.

I feel like I should mention that I consider Celes in the top 3 characters. Not quite sure who else deserves a spot there, but Sabin and Celes are definitely in the top 3.

^
You and me both.

I will say something that I did forget to mention that I really liked about this hack. Everyone is odd in some sense. The idea of a healer being fast for being safely able to have their turn appear is... Just... Bizarre. Some of the stats that you gave people are weird but work. I like it.

Honestly, I'd like to see what type of stuff you could make in a game from scratch. Because honestly, you made me use Setzer. I never really cared for him too much beforehand, but here...? Sure. That Esper equipping idea was just a stroke of genius.

The esper equipping idea is pretty much what we built the entire mod around - though Synchysi is the one who should get the credit for actually figuring out how to implement it. I just did the deciding of who got what and what esper teaches what spells and gives what bonuses >.>

I *would* comment on the assessment I saw of the Valiant Edge above, but I'd rather not rob Synchysi of the joy of extolling upon its many virtues as if it were the holy fucking grail or something.

I found it's passives a bit more appetizing than anything else about it. It's not a bad weapon, but with Stamina being a super good stat, high evade + regen is more wanted IMO than anything else. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but the whole "get stronger at lower hp" is something I don't want.

I honestly find myself preferring back row Locke with a shield by the end with Omega. I guess if you're still dual-wielding with Locke, I can definitely see that being liked more.

Locke was easily the MVP in my run (though I really should do another run through now that the official release is out).

His physical attacks did more damage than anyone else, his combination of armor gave him so much speed and evasion that he was near impossible to damage, and he had the ability to be a backup healer in a pinch. If memory serves correctly, I gave him the Omega Weapon and Wing Edge (the "Randomly Throws" seemed to work quite often for me) and tossed him in the back row to improve his survivability on the off chance that he actually did get hit. Throw on either the Dark Gear or the Mirage Vest along with the Ninja Mask, Rogue Cloak and Thief Glove and you have one hell of a heavy hitter. Two strong weapons that do the same damage from back row (one of which increases all stats by +7 as well), a chance to counter-attack every time someone attacks him (and likely fails to hit), an accessory that boosts his healing abilities and causes his attacks to never miss (an important feature on someone who doesn't have much other options for dealing damage) and another accessory that boosts his physical damage and gives him more vigor to help even more.

Now, some could argue that much of that equipment would be better suited for other characters as Locke is given a TON of other options whereas some other characters are more limited, but it's what I found to work best and it really helped Locke shine. My justification for it was that Locke has nothing going for him damage wise other than his weapons. He can't throw stuff, he has no Blitzes, he can't morph, his attack magic is limited and his MP even more so, he has no sword techs or lores... he has fight. So I set him up in a way that I felt maximized his ability to pummel things to death. Though if I recall correctly, Synchysi gave me crap about using the Omega Weapon instead of the Valiant Edge during the beta testing, so there's that. <_<

The moral of this is that your best character can greatly depend on who you want to be your best character. You can set up any character to be great, but you'll likely be stealing equipment that could be used to make other characters great. It's a trade off, and it's how it should be.

Dynalo, on 01 August 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

He gives everyone crap about that, but I've gotta admit that the Omega Weapon has proven much more popular with players than I assumed it would be.

I'm almost beginning to think that the Zantetsuken needs a boost of some sort.

BTB, on 01 August 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Well the "Always hits" is kinda useless for Locke because 9 times out of 10 people are going to have the Rogue Cloak on him. "All Stats +7" trumps just Vgr/Spd +7. Terra and Celes are much better off using either the Apocalypse/Illumina and the Excalibur (though that, admittedly, comes quite late). Though I was a bit of an oddball and kept the Soul Sabre on Terra right up until I got the Excalibur because I very rarely did any physical attacking with her, and the random Osmose from the Soul Sabre worked frequently enough to keep her MP topped up while I trekked through the dungeons. And lastly, if your Edgar is using swords, they are likely just there as stat sticks anyways, at which point the Zantetsuken is decent if everything else is taken, but many people prefer to put spears on him for that delicious HP boost.

I actually preferred my Rogue Cloak on Shadow, since I was using him to spam scrolls for massive damage.

Of course forgoing the Rogue Cloak on Locke means you have a free slot for the Sage Stone (if you're so inclined), and so the magic boost from the Omega Weapon is still quite appealing.

I still haven't finished the game yet, but every time I decide on a character for MVP, I end up using someone else in a different way and they totally rock.

Stann, on 01 August 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

This was Synchysi and I throughout pretty much the entire development.

I think it culminated in him saying something that I'm positive has never been said before:

"...dude, Gogo totally just carried his team through Kefka's Tower."

BTB, on 01 August 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

It's really hard to pass up on the Omega weapon. It literally is an "every man" weapon. The back row is too nice as well. I don't think it needs to be nerfed per say, as it's supposed to be an ultimate weapon, and it does that just fine...

Zantetsuken does need a bit of a boost. Consider the people that can use it:

Terra: Doesn't want it as more than likely she's just going to hit people with magic. The spd boost is nice, but even with 7 speed, I don't think it's pushing her spd into a threshold that actually makes her capable of doing anything more with it. Vigor is physical, and Terra has exactly 1 Esper that raises her Vigor. Granted its Vigor +2, but it's the only one. Unless you've been micromanaging Terra on overtime, you're more than likely going to have a Stamina Terra, or a Mag/Stm Terra. And unlike Celes, Terra doesn't have a bunch of Espers that can boost her HP boss amounts each level up. So Terra is more than likely going to be on the backrow casting spells because she's one of the best for doing it, and you have to work to make her physicals do more than magic... Which... Why would you outside of novelty? Specifically when Terra is the only Ultima learner? It just seems like a waste.

Celes: There's an argument to be made for Celes using it, as if you build her to be a tankier Celes, she would have usage for it. And her Esper equips allow this to be very possible to make her a viable frontliner. Zans would go well in her hands if you built her to be physically oriented. As Zans gives better stat bonuses for her in that department. Even if you want the Holy procs. If someone is using the Omega weapon, this is easily the best choice for her.

Locke: If Locke doesn't want to use an "always hits" relic, this is a good option for him. It gives good stats, and its attack power doesn't slide all over the place like other "super" weapons he can use. This gives him the most consistently high damage he can possibly output. Honestly, if you aren't giving him Omega, I'd say he's the only one that can 100% use this with no-complaints. Unfortunately though, it doesn't ignore defense so even then, he may actually want to opt for the Valiant Edge on some fights.

Edgar: A tank. If he's going physical, he's using a spear. Not only do they let him attack from the backrow, but they make him do more damage anyways because of Jump. Plus there's the hp bonuses from the spear and you've got yourself an easy choice.

So literally, only 2 people really have any want for this weapon, and 1 of them is iffy, and the other one can sometimes find a better option with another weapon. A buff is right. Honestly, I'd say give it like 20% / 15% evade. That gives it use for everyone.

For Terra, it gives her a weapon that actually has more than 10% evade which means that she can make good usage of it even on the back row.
For Celes, it can make her a better tank if she's on the front, and it's the same as Terra if she's on the back.
For Locke, it gives him enough evade to push his evade to nearly 100% physical and more than 50% magic evade without having to use weaker gear. Because Locke can already do this as of right now in the form of his bases, a Zephyr Cape, Backguard, Dark Gear, Dark Hood, and the Aegis Shield. With a higher bit of evade from a weapon, that means he could say... Not use the Dark Hood and instead opt to wear a Genji Helmet. Which would make him hit harder. With that boosted weapon, he could then use this setup to never miss AND wear a Genji Helm.
For Edgar, it'd make him a better tank. I still probably wouldn't use it for him.



And Dynalo, I did the exact same thing with Terra and the Soul Sabre. It worked just fine for me too.

Augestein, on 01 August 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

The thing about Celes is that even if you build her to be a physical fighter, the Illumina is still a better choice. Chances are your Terra is magic based, and thus doesn't really need the Apocalypse, so it frees open the weapon for Celes. The "always critical hit" feature means that even with the Vigor boost and without Holy, the Illumina will out damage the Zantetsuken. Sure, it might make a mighty nice dent in your MP, but that's why I recommend giving the weapon to Celes and not Terra. Celes can keep her MP up with generous use of the Runic ability, so you'll never really need to worry about running out of MP.

Personally, as is, I think the Zantetsuken is best suited for an Edgar who focuses on tools instead of jumping. It makes for a relatively decent stat stick in his hands if the Omega Weapon is in use. The Valiant Edge is a better option for Locke, so he'll never use that weapon. The only way I see it getting any real use is if somebody did want to give Terra the Apocalypse, then it does become a decent backup weapon for Celes.

Dynalo, on 02 August 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

True, but Zans can't miss which is important too (it means I don't need a black belt to force Fight to hit). And Apocoalypse is only usable by Terra I thought. I could be wrong and can't check right now. Granted Illumina is exactly the same except it gives off Holy instead of Flare but whatever.

Tool Edgar I can see making use of that, that's true too. I'd just rather him use the spears for extra tankiness, and Jump does a lot more damage towards the end than Tools from my experience.

Like I said about Locke though, missing can be annoying on some enemies, so having a weapon that doesn't hit is nice, still, I don't think that it makes up for being better than VE overall.

Dynalo, on 01 August 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

I feel like Sabin can pull that off without dipping into other people's equipment.

Dynalo, on 02 August 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Why would you ever do that?