Insane Difficulty: Final Class weapons - Insane Difficulty

If you'd force me to choose, currently I'd go with:

Duran
-Paladin: Turn Undead affects Undead and Devils/dark creatures (NOT demons)
-Lord: damage bonus and high crit rate vs werwolves and mages (incl. Heath and Koren)
-Swordmaster: reveal weakpoint (target gets for 2*INT frames 1*INT less phys. defense, decreases accordingly to how long this debuff still lasts)
-Duelist: 15% Lv2/3 tech damage boost, total crit rate = 0

Kevin
-God Hand: non-crits deal 1 damage, crits deal extra damage
-Warrior Monk: MT'd heal light gets same +25% heal power as ST heal
-Death Hand: Lv3 throws deal 999 damage
-Dervish: during battle, attack increases and defenses decrease by 1 each per second (capped at +100)

Hawk
-Wanderer: Half Vanish deals damage based on maxHP instead of currentHP
-Rogue: chance to crit with spells
-Ninja Master: light attack, no tech gain, high crit bonus, crits get atk bonus based on INT
-Night Blade: 35% Lv2/3 tech bonus damage if below half health

Angela
-Grand Divina: cast a Lv1 spell on an ally to empower the next Lv2/3 tech with a respective boost (inc. atk, flat and based on user's INT, overwrites element of tech)
-Arch Mage: reduced spell power, spells inflict stacking damage over time
-Rune Master: spells can't be resisted
-Magus: MT'd spells get ST bonus

Charlie
-Bishop: medium weapon strength based on PIE, bonus to Lv1 techs
-Sage: passive heal aura, per second can drain 2 MP to heal 3x PIE+5 for one ally or 2x PIE +3 for party - does not profit from any heal modifiers, undead don't get healed
-Necromancer: summon spells that hit a weakness get a damage buff
-Evil Shaman: anti-magic burns unused maxHP away (max HP = current HP); maybe too powerful with Anti-Magic <-> Lunatic (spammable unrestricted 25% HP damage)

Lise
-Vanadise: Freya becomes element of the day
-Starlancer: Aura Wave additionally buffs Lv2/3 techs by 10%, Energy Ball also increases crit. damage by 10%
-DragonMaster: Stat Downs become pseudo-Jutsus, dealing additionally some PIE-based elemental Lv1 damage
-FenrirKnight: summon receives 25% damage bonus if the target has any weakness

Here's that idea I mentioned before:

What about the Light/Light & Dark/Dark Final Weapons working like this: for Light/Light, how about trading some physical strength for multi-targeting healing or stronger Wisp magic? Dark/Dark, sacrificing defense and weaker healing for extra strength in either physical and/or stronger Shade spells?

These are good. Sage's specificaly is exactly what I think these effects should be, very specific. A few gripes though:

Would make more sense to switch Swordmaster's and Godhand's effects. Also, I'm assuming the math on the Godhand's effect says it's still a damage gain at least if you're full Crit gear.

Grand Divina seems useless compared to just casting the spell normally.

Evil Shaman's definitely shouldn't be that.

Vanadise's is too situational.

And two questions: how does the extra damage on Archmage's work? And does Fenrir Knight's still check if it also has a resistance to that element?

Valenhil, on 17 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Why's that?

Valenhil, on 17 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Depends entirely on investment into crit rate (luck stat, helm, buffs)

Valenhil, on 17 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Highly magic resistant enemies? (e.g. Mispolm took from my spells only single digit damage)
Or enemies that only counter spells unfavorably?
Also, you can MT the Lv1 spell to give your whole party the buff, profitting 3 times vs a single ST cast (if the target is a boss)

Valenhil, on 17 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

A better idea? I wanted to go with something that is more support-ish than damage related.

Valenhil, on 17 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Maybe but a 50% damage bonus is a lot, so I think it's ok that you have to "work for it".

Valenhil, on 17 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Dunno, maybe 3% of the dealt damage also gets inflicted (invisibly like poison) every 2 seconds, so after a minute you've already dealt double damage.

Valenhil, on 17 May 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

No, the spell stays neutral, it just gets a damage bonus if the target has any elemental weakness, making it (almost) free 25% extra damage.

My good sir, I have another suggestion for the Final Weapons: how about a random chance of causing a status effect/inherent status, i.e. relying on the RNG rather than something like Luck or Intelligence? Say, Nightblade's ultimate weapon having a chance of inflicting poisoning or death, assuming the enemy is not a boss or immune? Or how about the Wanderer's weapon having an inherent MP Steal in exchange for lower strength?

Colar, on 18 May 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

Not sure if serious.
Compare your suggestions with:
Valar Sword
Kusanagi Blade
Krau-Soles
Sabre
Steel Sword
Muramasa Blade
Dragonbane
Palestorm
(or the counterparts for other characters with same effects)

unless I'm seriously misreading your ideas, those are the same as we already have.

...So, we do. I admit to ignorance... about the "neutral damage" thing, I take it that if an enemy is normally immune to/reflects/absorbs a spell's base element, does this happen to ignore immunity/absorption/reflection? And how about this idea for the Wanderer's Final Class Weapon: at the exchange of some Strength and Defense, Luck and Evasion are slightly increased? Y'know, because the Wanderer Hawk is unleashed by Good Luck Die.

Praetarius5018, on 17 May 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

It increases the entire party's damage, so would fit God Hand's offensive support more. And Swordmaster has Energy Ball self-only.

Also something something pressure points

Praetarius5018, on 17 May 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

You still need to use gear to protect yourself from that element, on top of protecting yourself from whatever you're fighting.

Praetarius5018, on 17 May 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

How about a direct debuff to MDef on offensive spells, and bonus to MDef on supportive ones?

Praetarius5018, on 17 May 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

It's still a final class weapon. I think they should be very specific in effect and representative of which class they belong to. This would be more of a hassle to even make work.

Praetarius5018, on 17 May 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

What I mean is, if something is both weak and resistant to any one element before anti-magic, does the bonus still apply?

Valenhil, on 18 May 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Mind Down, Counter Magic, Life Booster - offense support? what?

Valenhil, on 18 May 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Pressure point? This game has no such thing.

Valenhil, on 18 May 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

It was meant that you take (almost) no damage from the spell then.

Valenhil, on 18 May 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Buff to defense - hell no; that'd make it too easy to get to the 0 damage threshold.

Valenhil, on 18 May 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Isn't that what Vanadise is? A lot of "difficult" to use potential?
Can heal but needs a ring for MT.
MT Lv3 tech with good 31 STR but no own way to buff TP gain rate or Lv2/3 tech damage.
A summon that has a useful status effect but can cost you a lot of useful exp when used badly (e.g. when the enemy survives with 2 HP).
Buffs - well how many teams have buff overlap because of her?
And with that weapon also a way to make the summon very powerful but requires the right day.

Valenhil, on 18 May 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

If I'd implement it like writte above, it'd ignore whatever is in resistance/immunity/absorb/reflect and only look if there is any weakness at all.

Praetarius5018, on 18 May 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Also Power up, Moon Saber, and Kevin's own innate increased damage potential.

Light Duran gets the defensive stuff, Light Kevin the offensive, and Light Charlotte the more effective casting. Riesz gets everything to a lesser extent.

That's how I read the distribution of support classes, anyway.

Ok that's true, but Swordmaster isn't exactly a Light/X Duran
well, whatever, the crit weapon sorta fits to his self-only Energy Ball.

I kinda like the idea of the spell crits on the rogues weapon but I was wondering if it could more emphasize the rogue position as a hybrid mage fighter. Maybe something like taking damage from a rogue spell causes an enemy to take increased crit damage from auto attacks for a set amount of time or critical hits lowering resistance against rogue spells for a set amount of time (maybe these would be impossible to implement but I wanted to throw that out there regardless).

The biggest hurdle is lack of RAM where I can save this information.
If it is something that runs "once" on hit or so - relatively easy. You calculate that info then throw it away because it's done.
But continuous effects that are triggered by a hit must be saved so they can update whatever/whenever they do.

Something like the Sage heal aura does not have that problem, since it is "always on" as long you have the weapon equipped. I already have a periodic check, asking if that weapon is in your hand is simple.

Archmage's special is doable because I've reserved some space for that same effect for Fiegmund already. Yeah, spoiler.

Those depend on me finding some extra space to save that info:
Swordmaster, Dervish, Grand Divina.

Starlancer's only require a "flag" each which fit where some dummy status ailments basically are.

Dunno if that helps with getting a rough idea for possible vs not at all. Though that may have been too simplified.

The crit modification and no tech gain weapon for the ninja master doesn't seem like a good fit to me - how bout a boost to the damage of a multi target jutsu - or any sort of buff to the jutsu seeing as how the class has only those and analyze.
Edit - Another suggestion is to also lower the base damage on the weapon it self but allow it to boost the damage of lvl 1 techs based on INT.

sid, on 27 May 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

"only" those and analyze? he's the only one that even has analyze; which gives increased chance to crit and damage for crits, so imo a weapon that favors crits would fit more than making him a spell spammer - that's rogue's job.

Praetarius5018, on 27 May 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

I must admit that I've been ignoring analyze. I guess I've always thought of the ninja line as being the agility focused side of hawks classes and I basically prioritized bumping agility for the jutsu and lvl 1 tech damage. What you said is pretty interesting though and is making me think of an alternate build. Maybe I should just get Agility high enough to learn all my ninja skills (6 points) and then prioritize STR and LCK to make a crit build. I will need to get some INT anyway to be able to fire off a rotation of debuffs (instead of trying to deal damage with the jutsus) so the weapons crit bonus will be there. Was this your intended role for the ninja master btw? A physical dps class / debuffer?

AGL focus is what dark Hawk should generally do.

I think of Ninja Master as a type of "assassine", he knows where it hurts each enemy best (gather intel, analyze), can create openings (RL: distractions, here debuffs) and then hit where it really hurts, NOT flashy/obvious attacks but stealthy and with skill (Lv1 techs, crits; bad Lv3 tech) - the MT jutsus kinda fit in with the distraction/confusion part "crap, who is being targeted? who is the mark?"

shifting his crit bonus from LUCK to AGL felt a bit too strong, so it is "only" a high bonus to crits.
for the assassine theme I mostly wanted to crit damage bonus on this weapon, and INT felt thematically appropriate.
remember that "no tech gain" is just 0 base gain, with aura wave or respective rings you will get one point again, so there can be a LOT of dps comming from that weapon if used right.

I wasnt aware that 0 tech gain could be "reversed" with things a like a mistscreen charm. Even if I do focus more on a crit build I always like having the lvl 1 tech handy to i-frame through certain moves.

Here are some suggestions from me. My suggestions are based around picking one skill or trait each class is 'defined by' to help flesh out the intended role, that way it adds another layer of variety or depth to the final classes.

Duran
-Paladin: Turn Undead affects undead 2 levels under caster and deals Lv. 1.5 Light damage to devils, dark creatures and demons.
-Lord: damage bonus, high crit rate vs werwolves and mages and Twinkle Rain provides immunity from any status it heals
-Swordmaster: Increased HP drain with Moon Saber, sabers have increased damage and no saber damage gets reflected back to Duran.
-Duelist: 15% Lv2/3 tech damage boost

Kevin
-God Hand: Counter Magic adds 75% thorn damage to magic attacks received against the caster with moderate chance to silence against non-boss enemies and lowers counter chance with magic
-Warrior Monk: MT'd heal light gets same +25% heal power as ST heal
-Death Hand: Lv3 throws deal 999 damage
-Dervish: during battle, attack and evasion increases and defenses decrease by 1 each per second (capped at +100 for attack, +25 for EVA and -100 for defense)

Hawk
-Wanderer: Half Vanish deals damage based on maxHP instead of currentHP
-Rogue: chance to crit with spells based on LUK
-Ninja Master: light attack, no tech gain, high crit bonus, crits get atk bonus based on INT – eva increases at night
-Night Blade: 35% Lv2/3 tech bonus damage if below half health – accuracy increases at night

Angela
-Grand Divina: cast a Lv1 spell on an ally to empower the next Lv2/3 tech with a respective boost (inc. atk, flat and based on user's INT, overwrites element of tech) – Lv. 1 spells get bonus damage based on PIE and LUK
-Arch Mage: reduced spell power, spells inflict stacking damage over time
-Rune Master: spells can't be resisted and Lv. 2 spells inflict a 5% debuff stackable with jutusus/down debuffs based on their element (explode reduces mind, mega splash reduces power, thunder bolt reduces defense, earth quake reduces speed) – status effects always land from tier 3 spells
-Magus: MT'd spells get ST bonus

Charlie
-Bishop: Magic Shield reflects 25% of physical damage received against the attacker with reduced counter attack rate with physical techs
-Sage: Twinkle Rain provides passive Heal over time and elemental sabers provide a stat increase, rather than damage increase, based on the element (e.g. Earth Saber provides bonus to defense + changes element of weapon to earth, flame saber increases attack power, ice saber increases MP regen rate– since she already has Mind Up – thunder saber increase agility)
-Necromancer: Black Rain lowers enemy resistance against critical hits
-Evil Shaman: anti-magic drastically reduces the counter rate of enemies

Lise
-Vanadise: Bonus to Lv 3 tech based on PIE and melee attacks generate 1 more tech point
-Starlancer: Aura Wave additionally buffs Lv2/3 techs by 10%, Energy Ball also increases crit. damage by 10% and increases resistance to critical hits by 10%
-DragonMaster: Sleep flower also adds silence and puts any non-boss non-tree enemy to sleep and poison effect from summon deals increased damage over time
-FenrirKnight: summon receives 25% damage bonus if the target has any weakness

mr_smartiepant, on 31 May 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

You can't inflict two status effects at the same time