I get the impression that there is no grand difference between the two modes of play. Overall, game-wide, you might have to use only a dozen more Phoenix Downs or Life spells in active than wait. For someone for whom 'active' is a problem: play the fast version of wait.
With nATB all operation gauges pause when an event occurs, regardless of affiliation. In active ATB no operation gauge ever pauses. I don't see how this changes gameplay at all, besides favoring a speed character once in a while.
Honestly: A beginner won't know to even try and change 'active' vs. 'wait' let alone the speed. Only the curious or the versed will change either setting. Someone who is skilled enough to understand the true change that occurs when changing the setting to 'active' will understand the nature of the change. nATBE basically makes passive… active. How is that any different from active, except a few speed-character actions. The most important fights are not won because of Gau or Shadow alone. The most important fights are won because they're fought well.
QED: nATB is what happens when bitchy people beta test 'heroic' or 'legendary;'' rather than an ordinary game. The outcome of 'active' ATB is similar enough to nATB as to prevent relevant justification for nATB.
PS: Save the coding space for Celes' Shock. Seriously, she retains a totally relevant stamina build that would interrupt both her magic and vigor build to receive extra credit.
This is on nATB and ATB.
#2
- Insane Gamer
- Job: Member
- Posts: 2,717
07 December 2014 - 04:03 AM
Dude, just keep it all in one thread, please. This has got to be the third or fourth thread you've made on this topic.
The difference between ATB and nATB has been explained to you several times. Just go back and read the responses to your other threads.
Stop bitching about this. It's getting old and nobody cares what you think.
The difference between ATB and nATB has been explained to you several times. Just go back and read the responses to your other threads.
Stop bitching about this. It's getting old and nobody cares what you think.
#4
- Co-Creator of BNW
- Job: Modder
- Posts: 4,548
07 December 2014 - 05:32 AM
I dunno, I don't think we have enough nATB threads. The front page of my forum isn't completely inundated in them yet.
#5
- The Handburglar
- Job: Administrator
- Posts: 8,862
07 December 2014 - 05:34 AM
BunkJuggs, on 07 December 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
I get the impression that there is no grand difference between the two modes of play. Overall, game-wide, you might have to use only a dozen more Phoenix Downs or Life spells in active than wait. For someone for whom 'active' is a problem: play the fast version of wait.
With nATB all operation gauges pause when an event occurs, regardless of affiliation. In active ATB no operation gauge ever pauses. I don't see how this changes gameplay at all, besides favoring a speed character once in a while.
Honestly: A beginner won't know to even try and change 'active' vs. 'wait' let alone the speed. Only the curious or the versed will change either setting. Someone who is skilled enough to understand the true change that occurs when changing the setting to 'active' will understand the nature of the change. nATBE basically makes passive… active. How is that any different from active, except a few speed-character actions. The most important fights are not won because of Gau or Shadow alone. The most important fights are won because they're fought well.
With nATB all operation gauges pause when an event occurs, regardless of affiliation. In active ATB no operation gauge ever pauses. I don't see how this changes gameplay at all, besides favoring a speed character once in a while.
Honestly: A beginner won't know to even try and change 'active' vs. 'wait' let alone the speed. Only the curious or the versed will change either setting. Someone who is skilled enough to understand the true change that occurs when changing the setting to 'active' will understand the nature of the change. nATBE basically makes passive… active. How is that any different from active, except a few speed-character actions. The most important fights are not won because of Gau or Shadow alone. The most important fights are won because they're fought well.
Oh my fucking God. Dude, just stop.
Learn to read, and stop making a new fucking thread for every mindless whine post you have about nATB.
BunkJuggs, on 07 December 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
PS: Save the coding space for Celes' Shock. Seriously, she retains a totally relevant stamina build that would interrupt both her magic and vigor build to receive extra credit.
Shock is never making it into the game and you ought to fucking know it by now. Jesus fucking goddamn Christ.
#6
- Serious Gamer
- Job: Banished
- Posts: 248
07 December 2014 - 06:17 AM
All any form of nATB over active allows is the idea of control. There's no difference besides worthy guestimates and assurances for those without faith besides hope, which is one of the few aspects that makes this game remain fun. "Was I able to get Shadow's 'fight' command in before Hit's next round?"
#8
- Dicklord, Lord of Dicks
- Job: Regulator
- Posts: 5,398
07 December 2014 - 06:48 AM
quadpolar, on 07 December 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:
#9
- Co-Creator of BNW
- Job: Hacker
- Posts: 1,081
07 December 2014 - 06:49 AM
Until you come up with a reasonable counter-argument as opposed to the same dreck you've felt the need to start three different threads to spew, this is probably the most serious response you'll get.
I've long felt that combat pacing, especially early in the game, was a significant problem in BNW. Additionally, speed suffers from a "soft cap" based on command delays and animation length; the "Active" ATB style actually exacerbates this issue. Globally raising multipliers wasn't really an option, since doing so would lower the point of diminishing returns for speed. nATB allows us to not only greatly boost speed multipliers to alleviate this problem, but it helps to prevent the player from reaching the speed soft cap.
BunkJuggs, on 07 December 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
With nATB all operation gauges pause when an event occurs, regardless of affiliation. In active ATB no operation gauge ever pauses. I don't see how this changes gameplay at all, besides favoring a speed character once in a while.
I've long felt that combat pacing, especially early in the game, was a significant problem in BNW. Additionally, speed suffers from a "soft cap" based on command delays and animation length; the "Active" ATB style actually exacerbates this issue. Globally raising multipliers wasn't really an option, since doing so would lower the point of diminishing returns for speed. nATB allows us to not only greatly boost speed multipliers to alleviate this problem, but it helps to prevent the player from reaching the speed soft cap.
#10
- The Handburglar
- Job: Administrator
- Posts: 8,862
07 December 2014 - 06:59 AM
Synchysi, on 07 December 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:
Until you come up with a reasonable counter-argument as opposed to the same dreck you've felt the need to start three different threads to spew, this is probably the most serious response you'll get.
Four, actually.
#11
- Lock Birdy
- Job: Member
- Posts: 1,741
07 December 2014 - 08:00 AM
Judging by my guess at your average -rep per post in these threads, just three more and you'll have a lower reputation than TooSmart, which would give you the lowest reputation in ID history as far as I know (I don't -rep people or care usually, so none of it was me, anyways).
I think everybody knows the real reason why you don't like n-ATB; that is, everybody except possibly yourself. Nakar/Funny have always been posting "analytic" threads all over the BNW forum. I get the feeling that you saw all the praise they've been getting for it, and felt as though your ideas were not only as good as, but better than theirs. So of course, you started posting similar threads/posts yourself, because you wanted the praise they were getting; you wanted to be the next Nakar/Funny. But after you made some posts that you thought were quite clever, you came to a realization. People thought your ideas were in-feasible, hard to make sense of, or worst of all, wrong! That's because while Nakar and Funny are experts in what they're doing in this game, you aren't, and you didn't even know it!
Of course, this is where Active ATB comes in. You weren't an expert in regular BNW, but you could be an expert at something. If the playing field wasn't level between you and Nakar/Funny, then they couldn't possibly beat you. So you started playing Active mode, a mode that pretty much nobody happens to bother with. You kept extolling the virtues of Active mode, in order to try and bring other people to try it, a mode where you're the expert and would be the one to go to for advice. I don't think anybody else ever bothered, so you were only ever an expert in a group of one person, but that's besides the point.
Fast-forward to today, where n-ATB comes into play. There's nothing that's a big deal about n-ATB to you; that is, except for one minor detail, a detail that nobody else paid attention to or would have thought about had you not brought it up. Active mode disappears from the game. So of course, that one little corner of the game where you're the expert is just suddenly gone. So essentially, my point in all this exposition, a tl;dr if you will, would be that you don't want to ditch n-ATB because there's anything necessarily wrong with it, but rather, because it makes you feel bad that the one thing that you think that everybody else thinks that you're good at is gone now. Which is just a little sad when you think about it.
Just to spell out what I think for you. It may be harsher than I normally go for (although I'm not exactly angry), but if it gets you to stop posting these threads...
If anybody who isn't BJ thinks that this analysis is wrong, please correct me. I'm not always the best at this sort of stuff...
I remember you once posting a "hard and fast" level to beat Atma Weapon on an Active playthrough. Can you remind us what it was, if you remember? I can't find it anymore. I think probably almost everybody who comes to the BNW forum could probably do better at that level on Active.
I think everybody knows the real reason why you don't like n-ATB; that is, everybody except possibly yourself. Nakar/Funny have always been posting "analytic" threads all over the BNW forum. I get the feeling that you saw all the praise they've been getting for it, and felt as though your ideas were not only as good as, but better than theirs. So of course, you started posting similar threads/posts yourself, because you wanted the praise they were getting; you wanted to be the next Nakar/Funny. But after you made some posts that you thought were quite clever, you came to a realization. People thought your ideas were in-feasible, hard to make sense of, or worst of all, wrong! That's because while Nakar and Funny are experts in what they're doing in this game, you aren't, and you didn't even know it!
Of course, this is where Active ATB comes in. You weren't an expert in regular BNW, but you could be an expert at something. If the playing field wasn't level between you and Nakar/Funny, then they couldn't possibly beat you. So you started playing Active mode, a mode that pretty much nobody happens to bother with. You kept extolling the virtues of Active mode, in order to try and bring other people to try it, a mode where you're the expert and would be the one to go to for advice. I don't think anybody else ever bothered, so you were only ever an expert in a group of one person, but that's besides the point.
Fast-forward to today, where n-ATB comes into play. There's nothing that's a big deal about n-ATB to you; that is, except for one minor detail, a detail that nobody else paid attention to or would have thought about had you not brought it up. Active mode disappears from the game. So of course, that one little corner of the game where you're the expert is just suddenly gone. So essentially, my point in all this exposition, a tl;dr if you will, would be that you don't want to ditch n-ATB because there's anything necessarily wrong with it, but rather, because it makes you feel bad that the one thing that you think that everybody else thinks that you're good at is gone now. Which is just a little sad when you think about it.
Just to spell out what I think for you. It may be harsher than I normally go for (although I'm not exactly angry), but if it gets you to stop posting these threads...
If anybody who isn't BJ thinks that this analysis is wrong, please correct me. I'm not always the best at this sort of stuff...
I remember you once posting a "hard and fast" level to beat Atma Weapon on an Active playthrough. Can you remind us what it was, if you remember? I can't find it anymore. I think probably almost everybody who comes to the BNW forum could probably do better at that level on Active.
#12
- The Handburglar
- Job: Administrator
- Posts: 8,862
07 December 2014 - 08:09 AM
Lockirby2, on 07 December 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:
If anybody who isn't BJ thinks that this analysis is wrong, please correct me. I'm not always the best at this sort of stuff...
I tend to be fairly good at this sort of thing, and this looks like what a lot of people have been saying for months now every time a thread like this crops up (he's using Active to measure his penis), only in more detail.
Of course, being more in detail with this sort of thing naturally means that it makes more assumptions, but your analysis, at the very least, seems highly likely.
#13
- Novice
- Job: Member
- Posts: 60
07 December 2014 - 09:28 AM
BunkJuggs, on 07 December 2014 - 03:57 AM, said:
Honestly: A beginner won't know to even try and change 'active' vs. 'wait' let alone the speed.
I've been a grossly casual FF player for years, and I don't think I've ever kept Active or the default battle speed, even in my most tender childhood. Probably because turning menu navigation into mini-QTEs is kinda silly. Please don't speak for us.
Lockirby2, on 07 December 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:
If anybody who isn't BJ thinks that this analysis is wrong, please correct me. I'm not always the best at this sort of stuff...
As much as I dislike the whole concept behind playing internet-psychologist in general, I can't help but feel that was both both spot-on and deserved.
Seriously BunkJuggs, do you even read the answers in the threads you've made? For that matter, did you even try nATB for yourself, see what the difference makes? You probably should, because there are obviously things you haven't discovered yet.
#14
- The Handburglar
- Job: Administrator
- Posts: 8,862
07 December 2014 - 09:47 AM
Lockirby2, on 07 December 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:
Judging by my guess at your average -rep per post in these threads, just three more and you'll have a lower reputation than TooSmart
As of a moment ago, his rep is actually equal to TooSmart's.
#15
- Impostonator
- Job: Regulator
- Posts: 3,847
07 December 2014 - 09:49 AM
Advent, on 07 December 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:
As of a moment ago, his rep is actually equal to TooSmart's.
Congraturations.
#16
- Improbability Breaker
- Job: Regulator
- Posts: 1,581
07 December 2014 - 09:50 AM
Quote
QED: nATB is what happens when bitchy people beta test 'heroic' or 'legendary;'' rather than an ordinary game. The outcome of 'active' ATB is similar enough to nATB as to prevent relevant justification for nATB.
PS: Save the coding space for Celes' Shock. Seriously, she retains a totally relevant stamina build that would interrupt both her magic and vigor build to receive extra credit.
PS: Save the coding space for Celes' Shock. Seriously, she retains a totally relevant stamina build that would interrupt both her magic and vigor build to receive extra credit.
No.
No.
Please. No.
QED: No.
#17
- Co-Creator of BNW
- Job: Modder
- Posts: 4,548
07 December 2014 - 09:50 AM
"Achievement" is probably the wrong word to use, here.
#18
- Improbability Breaker
- Job: Wiki Guardian
- Posts: 1,461
07 December 2014 - 09:59 AM
I dunno, I mean it's perfectly fine to favor Active if that's what you like. I enjoyed FFXIII and that's basically a perma-Active ATB style system. Active takes the least real time, particularly on the highest Battle Speed, so for people who want to spend as little real time as possible it makes sense.
And the difference between nATB and ATB is, arguably, indeed not "grand." It mostly changes the game in subtle ways that I've come to really appreciate for the tactical feeling, but it isn't as though the game is unplayable or the mod is unchallenging without it. The main difference is it appeals more to fans of crunchy turn-efficiency style analysis as opposed to reactive play, although it is possible to play reactively in nATB (and it can be very rewarding, as it's slower but safer). But it does slow the game down in a noticeable way, and I could see how someone long familiar with FF6 (or the PSX-era FFs) would dislike that.
The argument that's always been made in nATB's favor is "the way you're used to is appealing because you're constantly inputting commands and feel like you're 'playing' more, but it actually causes some strange balance issues." That wouldn't change that it does alter how the game feels, of course; that's why FFXIII works despite being modeled on an ATB style few people used in earlier FFs. The user interface was altered to make it possible to input commands quickly and to be able to queue them before your ATB is full. Not only wouldn't that be feasible in VI, it would potentially cause balance issues itself... in that characters like Gau, Umaro, or Berserk folks essentially input commands instantaneously when their ATB fills, and if everybody could do that it'd make characters faster overall.
And the difference between nATB and ATB is, arguably, indeed not "grand." It mostly changes the game in subtle ways that I've come to really appreciate for the tactical feeling, but it isn't as though the game is unplayable or the mod is unchallenging without it. The main difference is it appeals more to fans of crunchy turn-efficiency style analysis as opposed to reactive play, although it is possible to play reactively in nATB (and it can be very rewarding, as it's slower but safer). But it does slow the game down in a noticeable way, and I could see how someone long familiar with FF6 (or the PSX-era FFs) would dislike that.
The argument that's always been made in nATB's favor is "the way you're used to is appealing because you're constantly inputting commands and feel like you're 'playing' more, but it actually causes some strange balance issues." That wouldn't change that it does alter how the game feels, of course; that's why FFXIII works despite being modeled on an ATB style few people used in earlier FFs. The user interface was altered to make it possible to input commands quickly and to be able to queue them before your ATB is full. Not only wouldn't that be feasible in VI, it would potentially cause balance issues itself... in that characters like Gau, Umaro, or Berserk folks essentially input commands instantaneously when their ATB fills, and if everybody could do that it'd make characters faster overall.
#19
- The Handburglar
- Job: Administrator
- Posts: 8,862
07 December 2014 - 10:04 AM
I get what Bunk is saying, and he's not altogether wrong.
But creating literally four threads in the span of a fucking week on the exact same subject is pushing it, especially when it's pretty clear people already don't like him.
But creating literally four threads in the span of a fucking week on the exact same subject is pushing it, especially when it's pretty clear people already don't like him.
#20
- Anal God Disciple
- Job: Member
- Posts: 645
07 December 2014 - 10:31 AM
I agree with Advent. Bunk is not altogether wrong.
But to make four of the same thread is really going over the line.
One is fucking enough, you don't need to repeat it.
But to make four of the same thread is really going over the line.
One is fucking enough, you don't need to repeat it.
