Insane Difficulty: Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion - Insane Difficulty

Download v0.870

Archive for older versions

The overall intent of the hack is to create a more challenging experience.

The patch is for an unheadered ROM, use SNESutil or similar to remove an existing header.
It is developed on a untranslated (J) ROM but so far I had no problem applying it to a translated version as long as the header was removed before applying the hard patch.

The numerical "easy" patch can be applied after the main patch if so desired.
It means roughly -60% enemy damage and +50% hero damage and a few other minor alterations.
*edit:*
v0.350 and newer has the easy patches included in a sub-folder of the rar-file


I have doubts that all possible hero/class combinations can beat this hack on regular terms - pure physical is sometimes flat out impossible.
It is possible to reach 300 in any defense with any character, about 100 are without stats on the final gear, a bit more on light-side gear (opposed to dark side's attack bonus).

Something I'm very unsure about is the "bug" where you can skip the cooldown after an attack by toggling between AI and non-AI control. Just hold A and let go when the AI-controlled attack starts and immediatly push and hold again.
It requires a bit of skill and is very hard to pull of when you want to evade, so I'll let it be in - for now.

Lv1 techs have invulnerability frames - almost required against certain bosses.

edit:
changes list and class overview split into separate posts

another edit:
against my better judgement, there's a fix-only patch

This post has been edited by Praetarius5018: 3 weeks ago

Quote

Oh my.

This is a good thing, I think. In vanilla physical was so much better in almost any metric outside of the carlie+angela combos. Best party imo was dark hawk, light lise, and light kevin: stat up, stat down, and MT heal light. shame no sabers or ele magic, but it worked.

but now I see both Hawk and Kevin got nerfed. hm.

Interesting change list; some of these things I wasn't even aware of existing!

I'll decide on a party and getting rolling with this shit. Expect video upload tomorrow

~

- Would you go as far as to say that Bezel shopping is necessary on any playthrough?

- Any change to the techs (outside of the saber/etc benefit)? Full screen tech/single target tech has no change?

Quote

...Huh?

~

Edit 2: Would... you like videos? Dunno if you wanna sit through them all. Maybe a text log and I'll highlight boss fights?

philsov, on 13 October 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

I know what you're talking about... Kevin can reach the "damage cap" on his Lv1 tech.
The game first calculates your attack power (base attack, bonus for buff, tech, element), then caps at 999 and only then subtracts def. I have trouble seeing a caster beating 2x ~700 per attack. (or per second if cooldown skip is used)

philsov, on 13 October 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

For Kevin I just assumed his wolfform, in it he has Duran's attack but twice the attack speed, so he is still ok. Hell, he even got a few now useable spells.
Hawk... second best physical attacker and decent caster. With crits now working, a nerf was necessary.

philsov, on 13 October 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

It is at least advisable. But the prices have gone up "a bit". So don't plan to rely on it too soon.

philsov, on 13 October 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

No, ST techs stay ST, MT techs stay MT. Only that ST of same level hurts a bit more than MT.

philsov, on 13 October 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Sure, why not.
Though no guarantees if/when the game breaks. My last full playthrough is a couple of changes in the past...


--final bosses are always missed with regular attacks
That is a bit harder to explain... for some reason the final bosses have a separate hit/miss algorithm, and currently it always returns "miss" on normal attacks and Lv1 techs. Lv2/3 techs are fine.

Quote

Gotcha. I was under the impression that misses didn't fill the gauge, which meant pure fighters were essentially screwed. This works.

Going with team testosterone!

Hawk - Wanderer, providing all the utility!
Duran - D/?L? - elemental sabers, pewpew
Kevin - L/D - MT heal light, MT power up.

lacking buffs/debuffs, but whatever.

Is there a way to tell ingame if the patch was successful or not?

philsov, on 13 October 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Quickest way is to choose Duran as the main; his starter enemy should only take 2-3 damage from regular attacks instead of 3-4, 5-6 on a Lv1 tech instead of 18.

Misses do not fill the gauge; that comment was for other sources, Aura Wave and the item.
Though that is something I should consider for later.

Btw, that's mostly the team I had in mind when I wrote that possibly not all combinations can beat the game. No mind down, no real spell power... have fun

The first thing that annoyed me in this great game was that its equipment serve no real purpose really. By the time you reach new gear you always have enough money to buy them. And each piece of new gear is just an upgrade to the previous store. There is no reason whatsoever to store some of the weapons of armour for later. Also, the game doesn't really have good mechanics to equiping stuff. It's so tedious...

This is just my opinion, but the greatest flaw in the game was either the inclusion of changeable gear or the lack of importance of it. If you're going to do other tihngs than just making the game harder, I'd suggest that you revamp the whole equipment selection of the game, or remove the gear progression from the game altogether since it really serves no purpose.

Anyways, SD3 is one of the more nostalgic games for me personally, and it's awesome to see someone working on it.

Quote

Hm. I'll try that; I started with Hawk and it felt identical up until the wendel cave.

Quote

But elemental sabers! It's like magic, only better!

Well this is interesting. Good job and actually getting something out. I've... actually been wanting to play SD3 again and this looks like it fixed a lot of the things making me not want to do that.

Just out of curiosity, is there any chance of releasing a separate version that just has some of the bug fixes? Not saying it's something I personally need but I'm aware of a lot of people that would be interested in just a crit/agi fix.

Krause, on 13 October 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

So far I decided against making each piece "unique" for two reasons:
-I can't communicate their non-defense benefits in-game; so you'd have to consult a readme way too often
-you can't change gear in battle; brought your anti-magic armor when you needed physical defense? wipe&reload
changing the def formula to accommodate for a "standard" armor factor shouldn't be too hard, though

philsov, on 14 October 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

Sounds like it didn't work. If the patch is applied correctly you would have seen Lv2-4 rabites and a few rabillions where vanilla is all Lv1 rabites.

philsov, on 14 October 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

It's still a physical attack though.
Mechanics-wise both "elements" would apply, so if physical is halved your total damage is still halved, but if both are halved you still deal only half damage instead of 25%.

Elegnaim, on 14 October 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

What I can do is make a version that has lowered enemy damage and increased hero damage without altering any stats.

edit:
Numerical "easy" patch, apply after the regular patch.
Has roughly -50% enemy damage and +20% hero damage.



found&fixed some issues....
new link in first post

v0.102
-fixed exp gain from monsters on Lv55+; before it stagnated at value of Lv55
-fixed def progress of enemy; previously capped at 255 when it shouldn't
-fixed poison bubble, unless you consider Dark Lich hitting you with 999 damage with max def, mind up&down ok

This post has been edited by Praetarius5018: 14 October 2014 - 12:15 PM

Hm.

With that info in mind, I'll probably go dark carlie in the party for some elemental spells and boss debuffs.

Patch worked this time! Woot! Mained Hawk again; almost died to Eagle. HP doesn't restore after the Neko jailbreak, so of course I die to the first ninja I come across.

Make it out, and then attempt to leave Jad. This... is normal? 3 hits to death. I have about a 20% success rate with this fight, and my surviving attempts leave me with >30 HP (ie, a rabite can kill me on the next screen.) My gold is gonna melt on round candy ;_;

Video of me versus wolf gates:

And now I just got the fairy to spawn. These 3 myconids go Night on the Roxbury so fast I can't even attempt to heal up. 3 hit KO happens in less than a second. This isn't playable. There's not an armor vendor I missed or something right?

I might give the easy patch a spin soon.



Edit: Oh, I see there was an update. This is version 1 btw.

philsov, on 14 October 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

I hope you saw that dark Charlie can't learn heal light?
My goal is to make light Charlie a defensive caster (heal, support, standard white mage stuff) and dark Charlie an offensive caster (debuff, damage)

philsov, on 14 October 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

You get a free revive/heal if you die to any of the intro "bosses". As often as you need.
The non-heal afterwards... sorry that's still original...

philsov, on 14 October 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

No, this is hard.
Ok, seriously - that was a bad wordplay on my part...
I just tried this part twice with Hawk, I'm probably too used to him by now... Angela gave me more trouble there.
Anyway, I'll adjust attack and defense of the enemies a bit, something like -20% at the start?
Though I have to edit half the enemy stat calculation for that... the regular mechanism is too cumbersome for the needed fine-tuning.


"easy" patch - needs a better title...

I think this is a great idea and I can't wait to load it up!

On its face I have just a few issues . . . the first is that bosses always dodge normal attacks, that seems a little absurd and I can only imagine the frustrations. The second is that Angela's Grand Divina class no longer stands out. Arch Mage takes both Double Spell and Rainbow Dust, maybe for balancing purposes give Grand Divina Half Vanish and Poison Bubble, that way she can hit every elemental weakness in the game. Sure she doesn't have any of the 'super spells' but she would stand out in her own right. Next, I'm confused why Paladin's turn undead is multi-target and Bishop's is not. Along the same note, is there anyway to make the Bishop's magic shield target all? Another thing is that TC stated that the point of Dark Carlie is more of a battle mage. I really like that concept; however, maybe remove Tinkle Rain in favor of another nuking spell or a utility spell that can help Carlie? Maybe Dark Force or Evil Gate? Also, why give Lise random sabers on her final classes?

Now one last question, does the "easy patch" have ALL of the mods but with the enemy damage -50% and ally damage +20%? or do you need to add both?

I commend the efforts, I just wish I had the level of skill to do something like this too

Can't wait to give it a go!

mr_smartiepant, on 15 October 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

I think you misread; that only applies to the final boss, not all - else they game would be unbeatable as you can't have anything but physical at the first boss.

mr_smartiepant, on 15 October 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Grand Divina has Lv2 Light and Dark spells (all multi-target). Archmage has instead non-elemental Double Spell and 4-elemenal Rainbow Dust.
in a sense her Light side aims for elemental balance and the dark side for "pure power" (no light or dark at all). Grand Divina achieves that by having and mastering all 6 elements in Lv1 and 2 form; Archmage masters the element less in intensity (no Lv2 light/dark) and more in combinatorial fashion (Double Spell and Rainbow Dust "summon" 3-4 elemental spirits).
I think having no Saint Beam hurts the Archmage more than the Divina misses a non-elemental spell.
Hitting a weakness does double damage and Rainbow Dust/Double Spell is now about 25% stronger than a Lv2 spell.

mr_smartiepant, on 15 October 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

They are both multi-target, typo in the notes... thanks for catching.

mr_smartiepant, on 15 October 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Magic Shield could be multi-target but only displays the single-target animation and only on one hero, I could just as well give her magic up instead as both do the exact same thing defense wise.
I wouldn't have to remove tinkle rain, she has enough unused spell slots.
If I wanted to remove tinkle rain from her dark side, I'd also have to remove it from her base class as you can't unlearn spells.
Riesz and Kevin only got sabers for flavor. For Riesz it was loosely based on her summoned diety;
Jormungand - snake that would drown the world with tidal waves -> ice saber
Marduke - babylonian deity, i want to say associated with judgement -> lightning saber
Lamia Naga - snake people = earthbound being (and somehow I associate poison with earth sometimes... dunno why) -> diamond saber
Freya - goddess of love and war (as all of them); war = stuff gets destroyed and burns; love = hot time -> fire saber

For Kevin it's simpler; having 1-2 spells felt too few, most other spells don't suit him, not much else left, so another cut at sabers. Fire & lightning feel more destructive than ice & earth, so they go to the dark side, rest was a coin toss and then God Hand getting the opposite of Death Hand.

mr_smartiepant, on 15 October 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

You apply first the normal patch, then the easy patch.
It only adjusts the final damage multiplicators. This way I won't have to maintain two patches, for the most part.
Everybody wins


In general, I'm not done with the classes; especially Duran's light side, Kevin and Charlie's dark side don't sit quite right with me, so if you have any ideas - out with them; the limit is 12 spells in a final class, 11 in a second class and 6 in a base class, though base and second classes shouldn't need much focus/changes, you'll only use them for about 30% of the game.

I'm toying with the idea of making Lord more a straight up support guy or 24/7 support; heal light*, all 4 buffs*
and Paladin could be more anti-boss/undead support with Light Saber, Turn Undead*, Heal Light(*), Tinkle Rain*, Magic Shield, Def Up, Life Booster, Anti-Magic
problem would be that Lord would be too preferable over Light-Riesz as he has heal while she "only" has a summon, saber and energy ball/aura wave

Hello,

This is all very exciting, I just have a few questions about your patch, however.

First, is counter magic still a spell in the game, or is it removed on the grounds that it won't work with the changes that were made to the game? It would be cool to see it still on wanderer Hawk and possibly a version of Kevin.

Second, can I make a suggestion for Necromancer Carlie? Can you add an enemies spell to her roster, or is that beyond the scope of the game? I would love to see "Ghost Road" added as a full screen spell used by Necro Carlie, but I wouldn't even know how the game could handle that.

Finally, I read that you altered the experience till next level so it won't be such a slog at certain times, but are you adding an easier way to obtain ??? seeds or second class change items directly? I may have missed that in reading your post.

Sounds awesome, by the way!

Insul, on 15 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Counter magic exists still as an item. Hawk traded Countermagic for Mind up. Three reasons for this:
a) Mind up works against all spells, counter magic doesn't work on a lot of stuff.
b) It's fairer if all teams have the same chance to get such a "game changing" effect.
c) The spell itself is a balance-nightmare... either overpowered or useless

Insul, on 15 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Suggestions are generally welcome.

Insul, on 15 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Can... for the most part yes. It's more a case-by-case thing - and I'd have to look a bit more into it. Some enemy-spells might crash the game actually. Icon + coloring to an extend can be changed from the place holder but the spells have a "random" description (like half of a dialog) when you look at it in the status menu.
I'd like to stay away from those if possible unless noone cares that the description is garbage or might even crash the game - worst case even depending on translation. I'll have to look into how those descriptions are selected, the pointer is not part of the usual spell data...

trivia:
Some enemy spells tended to use different stats for determining spell damage, often STR - for the simple reason that 99% of enemies use Riesz' stats and she has higher STR than INT/PIE.

Insul, on 15 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

The exp curve is now more steady and exp gain from enemies should be increased overall - originally level 50 enemies yield around 1k exp base, which is now around 1,3k and Lv90+ are around 5-7k (originally still used values of lv55); bosses should give around 70% of a level up if you're at their level.
Desert of scorching heat, Sub-zero snowfield, Moonlight Forest and Lampflower Forest got a few enemy changes, specifically for ??? seeds (in order Basilisks, Papa Potos, Boulders, Ruster Bug).
Those start with Lv31 so you should have enough time to get some before you hit Lv38.
There was one (way too) early option for weapon/armor seeds, that will be semi-fixed next version - the lesser demons in Sand Fortress Navarre on Hawk/Riesz quest will be Lv99 (they are in a lone, optional room)

Thanks for the easy-type patch!

Hi TC, so I know you said you weren't satisfied with Duran Light, Kevin Dark or Carlie Dark, so here are a few suggestions. Regardless of your choices I seriously commend your efforts.

Also, I meant to say making all final bosses immune to normal hits might be frustrating. I left out the word final. My question is now this: If you have a saber active can you still hit the final boss and do damage, or would that still count as a "normal hit"? If so, it would make some classes, Lord, or any of Kevin's Dark Classes very difficult to use on the final boss unless you have someone spamming aura wave. If you don't have aura wave or some type of nuke you won't be able to damage the final boss. So a Team Consisting of Duran Lord and Kevin Death Hand would need to strongly rely on the third member to deal magical damage or spam aura wave so that they can defeat the final boss.

Or am I misunderstanding how the mechanic works?


Duran/Paladin 31/25/32/25/27/26
Heal Light*, Light Saber, Def Up, Magic Shield, Turn Undead*, Anti Magic, Holy Ball, Saint Beam
Duran/Lord 31/26/31/26/26/27
Heal Light* ,Tinkle Rain*, Def Up, Moon Saber, Life Booster, Power Up, Mind Up, Agility Up, Leaf Saber

I really like the idea of the Paladin being the "undead killer." Honestly, the only thing I would do is just add Anti Magic and perhaps Holy Ball and/or Saint Beam. Beyond that I think Paladin is pretty well rounded. If you wanted to make the Lord 24/7 support maybe instead of giving him all the stat ups multi target, just give them to him as single target that way you wouldn't intrude on Light Lise's territory, although if you did have Lise you could take her down the Dark route and have both. I tossed on Leaf Saber so he can provide support to Mages with Leaf Saber and Melee with Moon Saber.

Kevin/Death Hand 28/26/33/26/25/25
Energy Ball, Def Down, Dark Saber
Kevin/Dervish 27/25/33/27/26/26
Moon Saber, Water Saber, Lunatic

Kevin doesn't really need a lot of magic I don't think. I think giving Death Hand Energy Ball and giving Dervish Lunatic is a fair balance because both skills are incredibly useful in Kevin's hands. Also, maybe remove Life Boost from Dervish and add it to God Hand? Kevin's Dark classes are more about the pow pow than really assisting any allies. Lastly, maybe instead of Fire Saber, give the Death Hand Dark Saber? Also, might I suggest instead of Thunder Saber, giving Dervish Water Saber instead because a lot more enemies are weak to water than air towards the end of the game.

Charlie/Necromancer 25/24/27/28/31/30
Holy Ball, Tinkle Rain, Unicorn Head (air Lv2), Machine Golem (earth Lv2), Ghoul (fire Lv2), Ghost (ice Lv2), Dark Saber, Black Curse, Dark Force
Charlie/Evil Shaman 26/25/27/30/30/29
Holy Ball*, Tinkle Rain, Unicorn Head (air Lv2), Machine Golem (earth Lv2), Gremlin (dark Lv2), Great Demon (neutral Lv2.5), Anti-magic, Demon Breath (air+fire+dark Lv1.5),

The only real suggestions I have here would really be to add Dark Force to Necromancer. I think these skill sets are pretty good as is. Only reason I suggest adding Dark Force is so that Carlie can have an attack spell of every element. She'd be a great alternative for people who don't want Angela.

Anyway those are my suggestions, take em or leave em, either way I hope they help you figure out why you're not completely set on these classes. Can't wait to give it a go.

Quote

Lord with MT Heal light and all 4 buffs is just too good imo.

You could at least give Lord just "Speed Up", because the only current source for that is Reisz. L Kevin gets Power up, L Hawk gets mind up, and L Duran gets Def Up.

Similarly for debuffs: D Hawk and D Reisz have the spectrum, and D/L Kevin has Def Down. No one else has power down, speed down, or mind down. D/L Carlie can gets the spectrum too, I guess. D/D Kevin can get one (speed down?), and D/D Carlie can get the the other two (power down/mind down)?

Dark Kevin being minimally magically is fine, thematically. Did Pressure Point die, or something? Giving that to Dark Kevin would be apt.

Or instead of debuffs, D/D Carlie perhaps with Poison Bubble? I know its a hawk signature, but the MP rasp would make for some good sustained output.

Don't forget Dark Carlie has black curse AND demon breath – both act as a mind down

I am inclined to agree that Lord with MT Healing AND the power ups would seem a bit much.

I like the idea of poison bubble on Carlie or maybe even Black Rain for a dark sklll on Necromancer?

Great ideas all around IMO