Insane Difficulty: New Class Tier Theorycrafting - Insane Difficulty

I've formulated my thoughts enough on the potential new classes to put some information out there, though nothing here is concrete at this point. A while back, I had decided I'd like to add an additional class tier to most of the class trees in the game. This unfortunately comes on the heels of having completed designs for all of the existing classes that I'm pretty happy with, and now it's ALL RUINED. But basically I'm looking for ways to include an extra class tier in my existing class designs while (1) keeping my design intact as much as possible and (2) making the class upgrades as meaningful as I can without interfering with (1). Below are my current ideas for the new classes, there is a lot of uncertainty in what the class upgrades will actually do and much of this is likely to change. Currently, I do not have pictures of the sprites of the new classes, as I'd like to resolve some of the uncertainty before making those:

Universal Changes: All of the game's top tier classes are current projected to receive a percentage bonus to their damage and healing unless otherwise stated. They will also, of course, have their own unique palette. Wherever possible, I would like to make more changes than just these 2, even if it's only an attack name change, an attack palette change, a timing change, or a change in how far forward a unit steps.

New Classes:

Paladin -> Crusader
Front Row: 3x Smite (no change or evil-slayer attribute made more extreme)
Back Row: 3x "Paladin" Healing (up from 2x "Paladin" Healing in the Paladin class)
Notes: Paladin and Crusader will be getting their own version of Healing which will have its own name. This version of Healing will be based on strength instead of intelligence, and its power will increase with lower target HP%. Paladins will now be able to restore a higher amount of HP to severely wounded units than even Shamans.)

Evil One -> Marauder
Front Row: 3x Chop (no change or holy-slayer attribute made more extreme)
Back Row: 1x Ruin (no change or increased to 2x Ruin)
Notes: Damage would be tweaked accordingly in the case of 2x Ruin.

Samurai Master -> Shogun
Front Row: 3x Slice (no change)
Back Row: 1x Iainuki (no change or accuracy increased)
Notes: Iainuki might get an accuracy increase in general, undecided on this. Anywhere that it gets an accuracy increase, its power would be toned down slightly.

Ninja Master -> Assassin
Front Row: 3x Shuriken (no change)
Back Row: 3x Ninjutsu (no change)

Beast Master -> Beast King
Front Row: 3x Whip (no change or beast-slayer attribute made more extreme)
Back Row: 3x Inspire/Whip (no change or beast-slayer attribute made more extreme)

Doll Master -> Warlock
Front Row: 2x Quench (no change or increase to 3x Quench)
Back Row: 1x Dissolve, 2x Quench (no change)
Notes: If 3x Quenches in the front row, then Quench may need to not receive a power buff in the front row, would have to think on it.

Vampyre -> Nosferatu
Front Row: 3x Life Suck (no change)
Back Row: 2x Charm, 1x Culling (no change)

Weretiger -> Rakshasa
Front Row: 4x Smash (no change)
Back Row: 4x Smash (no change)

Wraith -> Spartoi
Front Row: 3x Slice (no change)
Back Row: 3x Rot (up from 2x Rot as a Wraith)

Phantom -> Revenant
Front Row: 2x Curse (up from 1x Curse as Phantom)
Back Row: 3x Curse (no change or chance to perform AoE Phantom)

Huntress -> Diana
Front Row: 2x Shoot (no change or up from Arrow which could not hit the back row and/or flier-slaying attribute made more extreme)
Back Row: 3x Shoot (no change or chance to be AoE and/or flier-slaying attribute made more extreme)

Muse -> Freya
Front Row: 3x Cleave (no change or defense-penetrating factor made more extreme)
Back Row: 2x Thunder (no change)
Notes: A purely cosmetic change that re-colors Thunder's animation and renames it to Spire would be likely.

Princess -> Queen
Front Row: 3x Stardust (up from 2x Stardust as a Princess)
Back Row: 3x Starlight (up from 2x Starlight as Princess)
Notes: Queen would not receive a damage boost, and Stardust and Starlight may even be tweaked down in addition.

Dragon Master -> Dragoness
Front Row: 3x Slice (no change)
Back Row: 3x Dragos (no change or possibly up from 2x Dragos in Dragon Master)

Eagleman -> Vultan
Front Row: 3x Club (up from 2x Club in Eagleman)
Back Row: 3x Mjolnir (up from 2x Mjolnir in Eagleman)
Notes: Vultan's damage bonus may be lowered or removed to compensate for the extra attacks.

Ravenman -> Tengu
Front Row: 3x Club (up from 2x Club in Ravenman)
Back Row: 3x Inferno (up from 2x Inferno in Ravenman)
Notes: Tengu's damage bonus may be lowered or removed to compensate for the extra attacks.

Halloween -> Boogeyman
Front Row: 2x Pumpkin (no change)
Back Row: 3x Pumpkin (up from 2x Pumpkin in Halloween)

Nixie -> Undine
Front Row: 2x Blizzard (no change)
Back Row: 2x Deluge (no change)

Cerberus -> Orthrus
Front Row: 4x Smash
Back Row: 4x Gaze (possibly up from 3x Gaze as Cerberus)

Kraken -> Dagon
Front Row: 5x Tentacle (possibly up from 4x Tentacle as Kraken)
Back Row: 3x Maelstrom (possibly up from 2x Maelstrom as Kraken)
Notes: Maelstrom's damage would not increase if its hit count were increased.

Cockatris -> Garuda
Front Row: 3x Petrify (up from 2x Petrify in Cockatris)
Back Row: 2x Gale (no change)
Notes: Petrify's damage would not be increased.

Wyvern -> Seiryu
Front Row: 3x Tail (no change)
Back Row: 3x Acid (up from 2x Acid or 2x Acid becomes 2x Blast)

As previously mentioned, all of this is very hypothetical, and feedback and other ideas are welcome!

I will be slowly adding potential graphics for the new class tier as I come with them. I have Crusader and Assassin added so far. Graphics may also be tweaked or altered as I progress.

I'd say Vultan looks too much like Canopus, and the jewels should be changed on the Queen, but the others seem fine. Seiryu means Holy Dragon, though, and they don't really seem...

How about one of these for the Vultan?

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Hmm... I hadn't considered Canopus. Mind showing me a picture of his sprite?

And the only reason I didn't change Queen's jewel was due to technical difficulties. I'd have to break from the sub-palette system to get a good looking jewel. Which I suppose is an option.

Not a problem.



As for the Queen's jewels, it's not that serious. I just thought it was all set up so any one color could be any other, but it's not worth some new big hack.

She does look good in black, though.

Not bad on the Queen, but black seems kinda anti-thematic for her White element usage.

Ya, I know. I actually don't like her staying White through the whole game, or I'd at least like for her to have an option to be corrupted. It's pretty easy to abuse them into low ALI, and she doesn't have to be good just because she's royalty. Ehh.

When I get to that point in my playthrough, I may see if I can stomach the black on a White caster, otherwise, I may just change the jewel color. It wouldn't really be all that hard.

As to Canopus, I'm not really sure that I find the palette too close to use. None of the colors are exactly the same, and Canopus doesn't have any of the gold. I'll probably have to see them side-by-side and in action.

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Yeah, the two aren't identical, but promoting from one to the other seems disappointing to me. If you'd switched out Canopus's old palette with the new one, I doubt half of us would've even noticed.

For the Queen, changing the jewel would probably do the trick. I'd love the skin tone changed in either direction, but one skin shade is attached to her hair. I don't even know how you'd get around that without adding a color to her palette. If you could reinsert the sprites, I could easily add the new color, though.

Fidelity, on 04 March 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Directly translated, that's one way to look at it, but direct translations aren't really a good point of comparison.

This is where the name comes from. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Azure_Dragon

I know. Still, none of the names of their revered holy dragon have anything to do with nearly-evil, acid-breathing dragons, is all I was trying to say. Holy Dragon, Blue Dragon, Youth Dragon. It's like having a Moon Dragon or a Tide Dragon breathing fire. Sure you can do it...

As a special character, Canopus wouldn't change palettes to Vultan's.

Currently, special characters are just going to retain their 2nd to last tier palettes when promoting into their final tier. Lame, I know, but it'd take a lot of work and creativity to come up with palettes for the final tier classes on all those characters, and I'd rather get a full version of this hack out before working on such a high-effort and cosmetic feature addition.

I wondered about that. At the time, there was nothing for Canopus to promote to. Then, I wondered what colors he'd have, especially with Vultan already using those colors.

My main concern with the listed changes is that the late game battles might tend to end with complete squad wipes. This happened in original Ogre Battle as well, though with somewhat different details. Thus the win/loss system, AI cowardice, and pushing squads around would be less relevant. Also retreat would be more widely used. To borrow from TV Tropes, the gameplay would lean towards rocket tag at that point, as far as I can tell.

Well the big advantage here would be that AoE damage is reduced to 75% in this mod. So even with these class changes, AoE does less than 100% of what the original game had. It could still wind up being a problem, though. I'll probably have a better idea of how it'd pan out by the time I get that far in the game, which is why I haven't actually implemented the ability changes for these classes yet.

I was thinking about some of these.

- Rakshasa could have a Swipe, a front AoE kind of similar to the double-Ninja attack I was talking about. In the center, they might hit all three enemies in the front, on a side, they might hit the closest two. And damage could be toned down to a mild increase, but split in half. (120% Damage) / (2 or 3)

- Dianas could possibly do the same thing, but front or back row, depending on their actual main target

- The Boogeyman could keep two Pumpkin attacks, but reduce health by 60%, up from 50%

- The Revenant could use both Ice or Black, to go with the Sorcery theme.

- Queen could give a +5 boost to stats in their units

- Dragoness could give +5 Str / Int to Dragons, etc.

- Vultan and Tengu could have an increase in their terrain weight to carry lighter beasts like Golems and Giants into Sky movement...if anyone still wanted to do that. I might. I dunno.

- Dagon could do 2x Physical AoE in the front row, damage reduced as needed

- All of them could have their HP increase by 15 - 20% during level increases, and it'll make it more noticeable in the enemy units

Also, I don't know where to put this, so I'll put it here. Maybe the special characters could have a stat or damage reduction if they're not a leader in their group. Maybe a few points in stats or 10% reduction in their own effectiveness. It doesn't have to mean that they're broody Prima Donnas, it could just mean that they don't shine as well when they're not leading people. The main point would be to discourage the usual Slust / Fenril / Fogel / Rauny / Norn unit setups.

Some of these could be interesting, the Rakshasa one and the HP% increase, particularly. Though I would probably sooner implement the latter as a % reduction in damage than as an HP increase. The main challenge with such a bonus is that not every class gets a high level final tier right now (Sirens and Monks come to mind... they might be the only ones), so I'd have to decide how I'd want to their bonus. I haven't even thought about this stuff for awhile because I was so consumed by the movement AI recode, but I still have a buffer of ~10 stages or so before these class upgrades will come into play.

The special character nerf would be in-line with my goals for them, they currently tend to give +2 to the stats of units they lead (because of their +1 special character bonus and their higher stats), so there is a missed opportunity cost by not using them as a leader. Including a penalty could help things even more, though 10% might be a bit much (and using a percent in general may not be appropriate since a special character's bonus is a flat boost, not a percent boost). Maybe just -1 to their stats when they follow, to pair with their +1 when they lead.

I didn't mean an instant 10% HP increase just by promoting to a new class tier, just a HP increase when they gain a level, like gaining ~6 HP when they level instead of ~4. It would benefit the enemy more, as they would actually get that 10% HP bonus. A fresh Freya could have 165 HP when a Muse at the same level would have 150. I think of HP more as skill than health.

And you're right about having a buffer to work out details. I think that as stats go into the 200's, +/- 1 or 2 won't be much of a perk or hindrance, but a percentage of damage will always have the same effect. If Fogel hits someone for 100, then 90 will be a pinch, but won't cripple him. Same as if he hits someone for 50, and is reduced to 45. But having 200 STR, and being reduced to 198 won't deter anyone from dropping him with Tristan or a Princess leader. I'd personally set it around 20%, but I do think I can be kinda harsh with things.

Maybe you could scale the +/- with the special character's level, like with the OP's number of attacks.

Not pertinent to gameplay: I know it's a typo but the wraith's name change to wrath is pretty fun. I wouldn't mind having a character class with that name.