Brave New World 1.8.4 is now available!
#181
20 February 2017 - 10:19 PM
Bio Blast is insanely powerful, but it's not perfect. From my experience, using it in Narshe often gets Edgar killed from counters.
It's not super useful later on, but if people are so upset over it being a dominating force early on, then you can always throw in enemies who specifically counter it enough to make spamming it a non option. That way you don't have to reduce it's potency, thereby making it useless in the WoR. This also teaches players not to spam their best option every time.
But then again, not everything needs to be perfectly balanced to a tee. Edgar and Sabin are great characters, but you can still curb stomp the WoB with the right setup on other characters.
#182
20 February 2017 - 11:50 PM
So by all means discuss what you wish - but the absolute last thing I want is for *any* member of this board, new or old, to be discouraged from speaking their mind. Let's keep it civil, gentlemen.
#183
21 February 2017 - 04:52 AM
The things I read about this mod make it sound incredible later on in the game, so if that type of interesting gameplay can be extended to the WoB as well (even if it comes at slight cost to the amount of choices in the WoR) I'd be all for it.
#184
21 February 2017 - 08:13 AM
Three reasons why I feel like Bio Blaster isn't overpowered:
1) Using it (or any tools) draws powerful enemy encounters.
-> Mt. Koltz Tuskers
-> Kefka @ Narshe soldiers
-> Randoms outside Jidoor
2) It is not universally powerful and won't outright clear the random encounter.
Plenty of things absorb poison or have high magic defense. Most randoms are designed to have a mix of weaknesses so no one thing can kill them.
-> Mt. Koltz Randoms
-> Lete River
-> Kohlingen Randoms
-> Jidoor Randoms
-> Tzen Randoms
-> IMTRF Randoms
-> Sealed Cave Randoms
3) Noise Blaster
Muddle is arguably more potent than AoE Poison because it can shut down a lot more randoms than Bio Blaster will outright kill.
Places where I personally feel it is the strongest option and could potentially be overpowered:
-> Figaro "boss" fight (Magitek Dudes)
-> Vargas (marginally)
-> Zozo Randoms
-> Dadaluma (only because it clears the adds)
-> Onion Kids
-> Phalanx
Outside of these situtations, Bio Blaster doesn't clear the entire random encounters if the player is following the intended level curve and isn't the best option available necessarily.
Once Edgar starts pushing 15/5 and uses Stat Hats, Amulets/White Capes/Magic Cube, he'll kill lower hp enemies even if they're not weak to poison. But generally not before that in my experience. Nirvana Band brings it into some relevence in the WoR but after the Phalanx it has only marginal use.
#185
21 February 2017 - 09:48 AM
#186
21 February 2017 - 10:00 AM
Whether this is an issue worth fixing, I don't know. It kinda depends on what sorts of fixes are on the table and how much people with the technical know-how to implement them care. Possible strategies I can think of off the top of my head include:
- Rebalancing, to prevent players from finding an unusually good strategy to hammer on. Change Bio Blaster to be more in line with skills gained at the same time, and do the same for other skills as they become clearly above the rest. Possible fixes for Bio Blaster in particular include reducing its battle power but ever-so-slightly increasing the frequency of poison ticks, introducing some additional scaling element to its damage formula like the jump the Autocrossbow can get in the WoR, or adjusting WoB scripts to react to it in creative ways (I'd like to see things like enemies put up better defenses rather than the standard "murder the player" counter, to keep things interesting).
- Adjust leveling, so that hammering on an unusually good strategy doesn't create bad long-term outcomes. Give XP to characters not in the party, perhaps at a reduced rate. Maybe grab some inspiration from Chrono Cross and reduce random encounter XP significantly while increasing boss rewards to compensate so that levels are more story-driven but players can still get rewards from grinding (I don't recommend this, though, since it shouldn't take ages to grind, and unlike in CC rewards have to come in whole-level increments).
- Give more immediate rewards to experimentation with different party compositions, so that players are tempted to jump ship on even a good strategy in hopes of something better. Not sure how to implement this, but it would require rebuilding lots of things from a pretty low level to consider synergy between characters as a fundamental component of balance instead of something that just arises out of well-balanced individuals. The obvious thought is to steal Chrono Trigger's multiple-character-technique scheme, but trying to shove that into BNW on top of its existing complexity would be stupid even if it were possible within the confines of the game's code. The game already kind of does this later on by punishing you for only having a handful of good characters, but this isn't always obvious hours in advance when you're in the WoB.
#187
21 February 2017 - 11:20 AM
Bauglir, on 21 February 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:
I'll add to that one thing we need: a compelling reason to change things up. I don't think this exists as far as balancing bio blaster is concerned. On an unrelated note, I don't think it's availability at Figaro or S. Figaro is a big deal. I've seen just as many players nope out at the cost as have bought it so it's really a preference thing.
I DO think it exists for the exp curve, namely making it a little more difficult to go from 12-20 as new players so often do just playing the game. I've seen a pretty natural inclination to grind GP around Jidoor post Zozo for consumables or items. This pushes people to 15 before they ever get the airship or set foot in Vector. IMTRF has quite a few hidden things which naturally leads to thorough explanation, especially if you're a blind player and suddenly you're very far past where the exp curve expects you to be. Particularly if you've found some characters you like and keep using them.
A hump at 15 (like 10 and 20) would help a little but I'm not sure how much. Anything more progressive than that would have to be slated for another beta version. Even this would likely demand it.
#188
21 February 2017 - 03:42 PM
Miacis, kjinn, Bauglir bring up good points. I especially like Bauglir's first idea, and I really like kjinn's point of making the WoB more interesting (something I've thought about for a very long time). I'll also acknowledge Mishrak's great point: NoiseBlaster avoids enemy counters, BioBlaster doesn't.
***
Something that you did miss, though, is that BioBlaster pairs with NoiseBlaster. Bio, being magical, doesn't undo Muddle. It's a strong one-two punch, coupling well with the common Poison weakness. Furthermore, this combo also bypasses some counterattack routines. (Testing just now: Muddle'd Brawler. whose script always counters Muddle, doesn't counter Fire Dance when Muddle'd. He does counter Pummel when Muddle'd. Both cases killed the dude, so that's not the issue). So, NoiseBlaster removes some of the restraints on BioBlaster's power. Furthermore, it means Edgar, as an early-game AoE controller, is self-sufficient.
Something else you're missing, Mish, is the absurd base power of BioBlaster. 45 Power is a tier-2 attack (16-24 MP). 45 AoE is a Storm (30 MP) or Wind Slash (Mog's Wind Song or Gau's Leafer). That's off-the-walls insane for the early game, let alone costing no resources, hitting weaknesses, and being controllable. The GP cost for Mt. Kolts & Lete River is extreme, but unlike Dragoon Seal, it's worthwhile. If all else, it's free Bio spam vs. Vargas.
Something else to point out is the design issues. Edgar starts the game with 3 AoE control Tools; very redundant. AutoCrossbow might actually have a chance to shine if it didn't get outclassed so quickly. I suspect it's not bad in and of itself. Secondly, BioBlaster's high power also means its high single-target power. Edgar should be using Jump & Drill for ST damage, not BioBlaster.
***
The exp curve is an issue. It's always been one. If this particular issue is GP around the IMF though, maybe that issue should be addressed instead? Either ease the GP concerns, or conversely, discourage grinding for GP so that the players are soft-forced to make some hard decisions before moving on?
#189
21 February 2017 - 07:31 PM
Even if the Bio Blaster isn't quite clearing entire encounters, it still often sets up for an easy finish by somebody else.
#190
21 February 2017 - 08:07 PM
#191
22 February 2017 - 01:32 AM
In addition, the game encourages players to use the same characters as much as possible because of the XP curve and the potency of levels as a stat.
Both of these can be helped by making the XP curve sharper, increase the growth of XP requirements while increasing the XP granted by enemies. This should be doable in a way so that, instead of certain levels being spikes, the XP granted by enemies spikes. This will cause players to reach the intended levels for a dungeon relatively easily regardless of their levels. In addition, because the XP required to overlevel a dungeon (by more than a few levels, at least) is a lot highter, the player will likely have to fight a lot more random encounters to overlevel.
Seperate to sharpening the XP curve, the answer I hear a lot regarding people overleveling is something along the lines of "They should have ran from more encounters." I can guarantee that most players do not think to themselves "I'm not going to fight this group, I don't want to get stronger"
#192
22 February 2017 - 07:06 AM
#193
22 February 2017 - 10:16 AM
Mishrak, on 20 February 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:
I think the problem might stem from the "recommended level" not being very realistic. I don't see how level 23 is normal for mid-WoR unless you're going out of your way to avoid exp. I basically just started the WoR; I just got the Falcon and finished the Cave on the Veldt. I'm not at home atm but I'd guess my average is around 25, with Sabin and Setzer pushing 30 since I use them so often (Mantra, Go Fish, and Solitaire feel very OP).
So apparently I'm supposed to be in the high teens or something right now? Even the characters I haven't been using are about 18-19 right now. The low tier WoR enemies hit for like twice their max HP.
#194
22 February 2017 - 10:52 AM
Quote
Cranes - 15-18
Atma Weapon - 18-21
Kefka's Tower (going in) - 28-32
Endgame - 32-35
Mid WoR is probably not very helpful from my end so my sorry about that.
I'm thinking more like most chars should be right at 20 going into the WoR. Then by the time Ce Se Sa Ed get out of Daryl's Tomb you're looking at around 22-23. Characters that rejoin you should be averaged to 18-20( pretty sure) depending on Celes' level going into the WoR.
So "early WoR" is a better term. Referring specifically to Mt Zozo, Cave on the Veldt, Phunbaba, Mog, Owzer's.
After that you're looking at around 25 for "mid WoR" namely Yeti/Umaro's Cave, Ancient Cave, Doma, Ebot's, Gogo's Cave and Phoenix Cave.
That should put you around 28-30 for "late WoR", namely the dragons and Magimaster.
Disclaimer: this is my own view. You can do any part of the WoR at any time with proper planning. Ymmv
However you'll have to make a conscious effort to change the party around to stay like this. If you stick with the same party most of the game this level curve doesn't even work anymore.
#195
22 February 2017 - 12:08 PM
There's some other concerns that I'll probably save for an actual review thread (or video if I'm feeling ambitious). I'm surprised so many people think Edgar is OP (I barely used him) while no one's mentioned Setzer. At least in this thread. I'm still pretty new to this romhack so maybe Setzer's been talked about before.
#196
23 February 2017 - 05:41 AM
#197
23 February 2017 - 06:20 AM
1) I'm grinding in dino-forest and I'm seeing what I think is some over-flow issue with EP amounts gained. 1 Tyrano gets me 768 EP. 2 Tyranos ALSO gets me 768 EP. Brachosaur gets me 256 EP, which I thought was strange but thought that maybe it was intentional (Tyranos for EL grinding, Brachosaur for LVL grinding maybe). I then tried creating a party of 2 so I could gain EL's faster and now 2 Tyranos gets me 256 EP instead of the expected 1536.
2) I've been reading that the expected end level is 30-32. I'm also assuming that since EL's are the 'character building' component of the system then all end level characters should be at the max of 25 EL's by then. I'm finding that I reach my max EL of 25 closer to LVL 35-37 range. Is this intentional or should it be closer to 30-32? This could also be a result of the (presumable) EP overflow issue with the dinos I've been using to grind. Less expected EP earned than EXP.
#198
23 February 2017 - 07:50 AM
Also, if my memory serves me correctly, Fanatic's Tower is the best place to grind ELs without gaining as much XP.
#199
23 February 2017 - 08:08 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?
I would argue that Kefka's tower is the "Final Dungeon", thus you should be able to enter the "Final Dungeon" with fully built characters, level notwithstanding. EL's are the main component of character building, so they should be maxed at the expected level that you start the encounter. I understand, however, that it's pretty subjective and have no problem with the design as is.
#200
23 February 2017 - 08:14 AM