Playtesting Ideas / Playthrough

Playtesting Ideas / Playthrough

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#1 thzfunnymzn

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14 August 2016 - 08:44 PM

Playtesting several ideas while playing through the game again. De-cluttering the Suggestions topic.

Currently: Floating Continent

Video Archive:
Zozo

Spoiler

Magitek Factory

Spoiler

Floating Continent

Spoiler

List of Ideas Being Playtested

Spoiler

This post has been edited by thzfunnymzn: 24 September 2016 - 12:06 PM

#2 seraph9888

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15 August 2016 - 10:39 AM

are you removing trident entirely? i would say ditch the stout spear instead. bio blaster looks good, though it will need a schematics buff to take it back to its current power (maybe slightly higher?). ~~edgar no longer has a + magic esper with that setup.~~ herp

poison magic looks good. i don't think it's too cheap, but i'd rather see its cost go up than the magic cube get a nerf. and i like the + hp morning star idea.

This post has been edited by seraph9888: 15 August 2016 - 11:49 AM

#3 thzfunnymzn

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15 August 2016 - 12:14 PM

My issue is that the Trident's water damage isn't really important. Yes, it's better elemental control, & does hit a slew of minor bosses (IAF, Ifrit, Number 128, Cranes) & some randoms (Rhinotaur, Protoman, IAF). But, it doesn't help for the important boss of Number 024, and Jump's really too slow to matter much for randoms. Without the Drill, having something for Mr. Wallchange is more important than minor elemental control over less important foes. (You could argue that Drill shouldn't be removed, but I think Julford's got a good idea with it & wish to pursue it).

Schematics is beyond me. It would be at 1 & 1/5 of its current power with Schematics, but more importantly, it'd still only be 3/4 of Flash's power. Replacing Flash isn't a bad idea (they're both AoEs just like Drill & Chainsaw are both ST), but Schematics would have to give two different multipliers to Crossbow & BioBlaster (not happening). AutoCrossbow could just become a WoR Tool (Noise & Bio dominate WoB), but I'm not sure I wish to do that.

Thank you on HP+ Morning Star. It's also the only idea I have that'll make Strago want to equip flails.

You may be right on the Poison magic's cost, but I'd still like to play with a nerfed Magic Cube.

#4 seraph9888

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15 August 2016 - 01:24 PM

oh yeah, edgar definately needs a neutral elemental attack. what if instead of a poison spear it's neutral and does 2x damage to humans?

hmmm. gas can blind. bioblaster becomes sort of a mini bad breath that does some weak damage. give it a power boost from schematics. what to replace flash with though?

#5 thzfunnymzn

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15 August 2016 - 03:30 PM

That's...actually a really good idea. Lemme run some numbers...

Yeah, even a neutral spear won't do well vs. Number 024. His high defense will reduce Edgar's absolute best to ~600 damage, which really doesn't seem worth all the downsides associated with Jump. Human slaying brings that up to ~1200, about what he did vs. Dadaluma. It's not super incredible, but it's workable, and to my knowledge & biases*, it's the only way to get Dragooning to work vs. Number 024. (Which is needs without the Drill). Dunno if it needs a different name besides "Stout Spear" though.

Can't commit to Schematics Bio Blaster. Can't make it work, and I'm getting a little confused on the bigger picture for such Tools changes (outside of reducing redundancy). Only idea for replacing Flash is Nakar's idea for a Bolt attack for mag Edgar (since Defib can't attack living foes).

*I'm biased against Dragoon, despite being committed to trying it out this game. If anyone thinks I'm whining too much or being too narrow-minded, please call me out on it.

#6 Julford

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15 August 2016 - 04:50 PM

Balancing early game Dragoon vs Tools feels like a lost cause in my mind, simply because Tools are stupidly amazing and Dragoon is only decent come endgame because physical formula and Gungnir. Treating Dragoon as an option for the handful of fights where Tools don't dominate (Notably 128 and Cranes) is what I'm assuming BTB has in mind for it, rather than a dedicated "This is my endgame build so I have to do this all the time" function for Edgar, especially pre-espers.

As for testing schematics Bio Blaster, it's as simple as tweaking Bio Blaster's actual strength in the editor if you want to test a more powerful version after getting schematics. I don't personally think it's a good idea as that just means anything poison-weak is even more laughable when Edgar's around (Current Bio Blaster is only slightly stronger than Flash vs weakness), but if you want to run it go for it.

#7 thzfunnymzn

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16 August 2016 - 08:23 AM

The only reason why I would test a stronger schematics BioBlaster is if Flash was being re-purposed to be something else. Otherwise, I will not.

Dragoon & Vigor Builds

Spoiler

You are right that Dragoon is a niche option. Though I've been trying to avoid blaming the physical damage formula for the past year. Not just for Dragoon, but for various vigor builds. Another serious issue that many vigor builds have is a (very?) poor weapon / attack selection, except for their endgame weapon. (You hit on this when you mention Gungnir). I think this is muddying the waters with the physical damage formula & causing people to think that fixing vigor builds is hopeless prior to endgame. I'm not certain, but that is part of what this playthrough is about. Cyan, Celes, Edgar, Terra, Gau (clubs), will all be getting some changes.

Tools, except for Dadaluma & Phalanxes, don't really dominate any WoB boss. In the WoR, Chainsaw is not good DPS at all (in fact, it's one of the worst come endgame). Even if nothing else is done, I think there's hope for Dragoon to become a better all-around boss killer, if Edgar is given a proper spear selection. Currently, two spears are nothing but stat sticks (Stout, Partisan), two are endgame only (Long, Gung), & two are only hurting randoms or maybe an elemental Dragon (Trident, Fire). I think the Poison Lance turned out at least all right for Dadaluma, and human-slaying likely out-DPS's the Drill for Number 024.

For randoms, Dragoon's only hope is being sped up. Dragoon currently takes almost twice as long as a summon, which I think & feel is absurd. The only two reasons why I haven't done so is b/c I'm a little worried that a proper boss-killing Dragoon would be OP on bosses if it were sped up (see: my Atma fight in Suggestions topic), & b/c I said I would give Dragoon an honest shot. (Great job so far, I know, changing Stout Spear and all). If my concern about OP Dragoon on bosses is misplaced, I'll happily speed up Dragoon, as I know speedy Dragoon is a lot more fun. (And if Gungnir is OP with speedy Dragoon, that's a problem with an endgame weapon being overtuned while everything else is undertuned. Just weaken Gungnir).

tl;dr, the problem isn't just "physical damage formula." It's also a mediocre / poor weapon & attack selection for many vigor builds, not just Dragoon. This playthrough will attempt to improve several vigor builds merely via better weapons or attacks. Dragoon also could use a faster Jump, but I'm slightly worried faster Jump + better weapons would be too good for bosses. (If not, I'm so speeding it up right away).

Cranes dominated by Tools? My good man, Cranes are dominated only by Golem. The Cranes dominate everything else.

This post has been edited by thzfunnymzn: 16 August 2016 - 08:26 AM

#8 Julford

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16 August 2016 - 10:30 AM

Quote

Cranes dominated by Tools? My good man, Cranes are dominated only by Golem. The Cranes dominate everything else.

What I meant was that Dragooning was good vs Cranes/128 because Tools do not dominate them. I'd also add Ultros to the "Tools are great for this boss" list if only because of the poison proc by Bio Blaster (Which currently nobody other than Edgar and Gau can do). Drill is also good then, but you have other sap setters and swinging a weapon against the back is still pretty good so eeeeeeeeeh Drill.

Also I tend to factor in randoms for the areas, which is part of why I find Tools to be so godly but Drill so lackluster. Almost every random in WoB has its' difficulty laughed at via Tools, except for Drill where there's not really any randoms it is useful for (Protoman is 2HKO by both Bio Blaster and Drill, and Bio Blaster also kills the Onion Kids).

Quote

vigor formula

Part of what I'm thinking when I talk about physical damage dealers (ESPECIALLY those that heavily use Fight) is that they have two different formulas and three different "stats" (Level, BPow, and Vigor) they need to work with, all of which end up ramping up notably around endgame. BPow and Vigor see higher boosts later in the game thanks to better gear selection, and Level is so influential that it does hold vigor back for a good while (At least compared to how magic works with Level). Changing weapon BPow progression so that it's far more linear while the level and vigor still escalate more at the end of the game isn't a bad goal choice, I'm just not convinced its' the best method is (was?) all.

I dunno, I'm mostly just trying to give you someone to bounce your ideas off of, in general I think WoB feels pretty good for most characters. A couple anomalies around the very end (Most of which I pin on Ice Rod skewing the average) but overall nobody feels like a wasted space. Fuck Crescent Island though, I know we aren't really talking about it but it popped into my head and god I hate that section.

#9 thzfunnymzn

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16 August 2016 - 11:21 AM

I do appreciate bouncing ideas off people. Your probably right on the WoB, but this is also me playing the game yet again, so might as well fiddle with the WoB while I'm at it. But, yes, the only areas that I'm bothering with are Zozo, IMF, and FC (incl. rods). None of the rest is worth it, and I'm not about to try changing the rest either. After the IMF, I'll be skipping forward to the FC, after which, I'll probably skip forward to or after Daryl's Tomb.

...I want more to Crescent Island. >_> Mainly, I want Mt. Esper to be an actual dungeon. Not just "walk a few screens, beat up Ultros III, laugh at Relm's antics, more cutscenes."

Thanks for explaining about the Tools. (I do like seeing randoms be involved in discussion). Honestly, BioBlaster & Noiseblaster could get nerfed further & Edgar would still be fine. Not saying I will or will not do so, just pointing it out. Right now, I'm content with having a spear that works decently well for Dadaluma & Number 024, even if it ain't amazing.

Ultros can't be Poisoned to my knowledge.

Ideally, the vigor formula & magic formula would be the same. But, IIRC, one or both of BTB & Synchysi shot the idea down. Without changing the formula, there's little left to work with besides weapons & attacks. It's not ideal, but it's workable. Sabin does it well; his BPow & stat boosts escalate nicely, instead of all at once near the endgame. I probably should consider how stats escalate for vigor builds besides Sabin (who gets all the love), not just weapons & attacks. It is odd to suddenly get a vigor +7 / stamina +7 from armor after you've gone the whole game with -3 speed. (There was one suggestion a while ago to put minor stat boosts the various armor families, & modify Power Armor since it would then be redundant. It might be something to consider. Your thoughts?).

#10 thzfunnymzn

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16 August 2016 - 07:17 PM

I'm gonna drop this paste of equipment before I hit the hay. Let ya'll have a blast with it. Hopefully I'll continue this play tomorrow.

http://pastebin.com/1HWQQds6

#11 thzfunnymzn

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18 August 2016 - 08:27 AM

Hmm...giving Stout Spear the "2x damage to humans" weapon effect doesn't actually cause it to do 2x damage to humans. Looking at Butterfly & Man Eater, I can't see what I'm doing wrong. Any help?

Also, does anyone know how to modify the accuracy of NoiseBlaster, or is that an exceedingly difficult change? I'd like to run through the Magitek Factory a second time, and one of the differences I'm wanting is to weaken the blasters a little bit more.

I'll upload my first run of the Factory later.

#12 thzfunnymzn

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18 August 2016 - 05:37 PM

Uploaded Magitek Factory.

seraph, I think you're probably right on the Magic Cube. I'm gonna replay the IMF with a Locke getting a normal Magic Cube to go with his new fancy +20 base MP. (alongside other differences).

#13 thzfunnymzn

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20 August 2016 - 07:35 AM

Finished IMF re-run. I'll post my thoughts, then basically skip ahead to the FC, barring a minor video or two.

#14 seraph9888

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23 August 2016 - 11:07 PM

thzfunnymzn, on 18 August 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

Hmm...giving Stout Spear the "2x damage to humans" weapon effect doesn't actually cause it to do 2x damage to humans. Looking at Butterfly & Man Eater, I can't see what I'm doing wrong. Any help?

hmm works for me.

#15 thzfunnymzn

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24 August 2016 - 06:39 AM

After testing, I found the error, & Synchysi showed me the solution. Dunno how's yours is working, but Jump overrides special weapon effects. To avoid Gungnir throwing & jumping at the same time. He showed me the override so "2x damage to humans" would work. My 2nd run through the Factory shows it off.

I never did post my ramblings. >_>

#16 thzfunnymzn

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31 August 2016 - 09:24 AM

Got a nice PC Gamepad, so this'll slow down a bit as I play some platformer hacks.

#17 thzfunnymzn

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31 August 2016 - 11:37 AM

sigh...Does anyone know of decent freeware screen capture software? Camtasia free trial ran out & I'd rather not shell out $300 to use the full version. Both my attempt so far to find a decent freeware one have turned up negative.

#18 Julford

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31 August 2016 - 05:42 PM

If you have a specific site to stream/capture to, Open Broadcaster Service streams through most popular sites and from there you can save the videos. I use it when I'm streaming through Youtube or Twitch, it's a little rough setting up the first time (They don't have documentation explaining what any terms mean, as far as I can tell), but there are plenty of guides for setting things up.

The other service I use a lot is Livestream Procaster (Not to be confused with Livestream for Producers, which is shit), which streams the game to Livestream but can also be set to save the video file locally as a .mp4. Just make sure you have the option enabled before you start streaming, I don't recall if you can change it after you start.

#19 thzfunnymzn

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03 September 2016 - 01:45 PM

Thanks.

I hope to return to this early- or mid- next week. Until then, here's a rough draft & preview of my suggestions for dragoons

Spoiler

tl;dr, Faster Jump, axe elemental spears to emphasize elemental blades (no proc+, bad idea), human slaying Stout Spear, stronger Partisan, stronger Longinus & split Longinus & Gungnir between Mog & Edgar (like Apocalypse & Illumina). Alternatively, keep elemental spears, but either change their elements, or make Atma & Chupon weak to Fire.

#20 Julford

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03 September 2016 - 04:50 PM

Don't like the idea of rods losing auto-crit; I know they're problematic right now, but killing their ability to contribute meaningfully isn't the answer. Something I've suggested before is to change the Tier 2 spell procs to Tier 1's - more or less the same results for Strago and Relm (They're slightly stronger mid-game compared with losing Auto-crit, but they lose nothing endgame) without completely capsizing the damage output of a non-Jumping Vig Mog.

Speaking of, how does this Mogoon compare with a straight FightMog with Punisher or even Quartrstaff (Assuming Auto-crit stays)? I know before they were close, but I believe that was before the Flare -> Dark change and Punisher's BPow drop. I imagine rods are probably worse off than a Mog with Gungnir/Longinus on a neutral target, which would be fine since rods have the advantage of a shield without tanking their damage.

And I'd rather see the elemental spears stay rather than be gone, but probably change the Fire Lance out for another element. Holy? Would keep it strong for sealed cave without changing much else (You lose coverage on Ultros but now hurt Ninjas w/ Jump; not the best trade). Wouldn't work well with Longinus to have a second holy spear though, unless we do something like make this theoretical holy spear a unique item that trades for Longinus (Also requiring a change from W. Dragon's reward).

Alright I've clearly started rambling random ideas at this point, ending now.

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Insane Difficulty: Playtesting Ideas / Playthrough - Insane Difficulty