Insane Difficulty: Who's Your MVP? - Insane Difficulty

Well, I last played this during the Beta (I plan on doing another run shortly here), and Jump was still being worked out. It was either insanely powerful to the point of being incredibly broken or nerfed to the point of being useless. It took many tries for BTB and Synchysi to get the formula for Jump working correctly, so in the mean time throwing stat sticks on Edgar was a perfectly viable option, and it frees up another Relic slot for him. I'm curious to see how it works out now.

As for Sabin, I believe BTB has been considering limiting his armor pool, likely for that very reason.

Thunen, on 02 August 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

I did my best to balance jump around making a tools-based Edgar an equally-viable option. The advantages of a tools-based Edgar are that he can deal damage faster and that he usually has a *lot* more defense thanks to the use of a shield. Still, if you go this route, you're probably dragooning Mog (who functions quite well as one, FYI).

Augestein, on 31 July 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

I see quite a few people focusing on the wrong aspect of the Valiant Edge here. The whole "stronger at low HP" thing is more of a bonus on the weapon rather than the focal point of it. People seem to have the impression that the Valiant Edge is weak if Locke is at max HP, when in actuality it's still one of the strongest weapons in the game, probably only weaker than the Apocalypse/Illumina, and only because those auto-crit and randomly cast powerful spells.

To be honest, the "stronger at low HP" aspect is somewhat irrelevant in this hack due to lower overall HP pools and the propensity for enemies to one-shot characters. It's a highly situational feature, but if someone is focusing on it, then they're really missing out on a great weapon.

In testing and in my final trek through the game before release, I found Locke with a Valiant Edge/Avenger combo dealing just as much damage as anyone else, outside of casters nailing elemental weaknesses.

Synchysi, on 02 August 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

To elaborate a bit, I think this trend is actually going somewhat hand-in-hand with the unexpected love of the Omega Weapon I'm seeing from folks here. Granted, yes, it's a stat stick, but I turned it into one because it's very UN-appealing as a weapon.

What I don't imagine a lot of people realize is that the Atma/Omega Weapon and Valiant Edge formulas are two *completely* different things; the former is more or less nerfed to hell in this mod because its special formula relies heavily on the level of the user, whereas the latter is, as Synchysi put it, an ordinarily powerful weapon that only gets powerful at lower levels.

MVP. Hmm. List is in loose order.

Strago. The guy feels tailored to every segment he's available for. Black Wind starts amazing and ends up great. Cleansweep was similarly great, doubly so since Water can actually be exploited. Shield is a premium ability, and enough to consider him before anything else. His ability to summon Zoneseek reinforces this, allowing him to Safe/Shell a party in two turns. Osmose and Raid make him a bottomless spellcaster, and even his almost-free doublecast Ice 2s make for good damage. Refract is the new Big Guard. The guy was simply never a poor choice, or even a mediocre one.

Low HP doesn't matter when he tanks magic like no one else. Endgame, he was taking less than 400 damage from an amped out Merton, and this was without elemental reduction or even Shell. What's more, none of this guy's arsenal outside of random support Magic interferes with Runic, allowing Strago to chainsaw through Magic Defense and Elemental weaknesses while many enemies are hit by an unblockable Mute. I could go on for miles about this guy, but I'll just say that this guy just does not care who's on his side or who the enemy is, and leave it at that.

Second place, but just barely, is Gogo. Part of it is the option to use Lore, of which some amazing ones don't care about your Magic, like Shield and Holy Wind. In fact, there are quite a few "statless" Skills Gogo can make full use of. With his weapons, he has some deliciously gimmicky Rage setups Gau doesn't enjoy(breaking the damage limit with some reliability before Lv30 is nice), to the point that FFIV's Wind God Gau is a cute joke. As is the Coliseum. And anything that takes Physical damage. Especially Human targets. Overall, he might be better than Strago if only for his sheer variety, and because he can use much of Strago's Lores to full effect.

While I understand the sentiment that he's theoretically #2 at best in any specific role due to his stats and ocasionally limited gear, that same gear along with his free Skill selection allows him to replicate supportive, "statless" Skills that don't care who uses them, and engage in chicanery only possible with Gogo. He can double up with another character and their Skill, he can heal MP with Blitz, cast statless Lores just as well as Strago, and do some downright graphic things with Rage and weapon effects. He may not make full use of some Skills, but he's also got more going on than that Skill and a couple of Magic spells. As a singular entity, he can have a close race with any other individual on a bad day. On a good day, the real deal is redundant.

BTB, on 02 August 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

The Atma weapon always relied on level. And most importantly, No one really cared about the Atma weapon in the original because magic pretty much reigned king, and the people that could use it either 1) Still had bad damage, or 2) Could use commands to do just as much damage with it when at reasonable levels. VE is good, I already said that. But again, the issue here is that OW gives +7 to everything. It's not just about damage output for me. It makes Locke a bit more rounded out, and it also allows you to put them in the back row and attack for full damage. That's pretty nice and undeniably useful. The fact that VE has a base physical attack and ignores defense is what makes it good. And until around level 50ish VE was simply better than Omega. But here, because there are added effects of stats AND it ignores defense AND it isn't row dependent, that's pretty nice. And makes it a good choice to consider over VE. It's not nearly as one sided as it was before. Yes, you guys did turn it into a stat stick, and you also made it not row dependent. Those two things turn it from unappealing to very appealing. Far more appealing than you thought it would be.

Yes, people understand how the VE works. It has a base attack value, and as Locke loses hp, the weapon gets stronger. Losing hp is a bonus, not a penalty like how it is with Atma/Omega. And if hp being lower means that people are more likely to be one shot, that's more of an argument pro-OW. That means Locke can fight from the backrow, so when the occasional muck up happens from him not evading, he's less likely to be killed by physical attacks. And it's also more of an argument for why I'd have Locke with OW and a shield towards the end. Because a shield gives him enough magical defense to survive attacks that would have killed him. So my Locke is less likely to die even if it means that he's a little weaker on the offensive side. That's turns that I don't have to spend reviving for reapplying Reraise and all of the other buffs on him like Safe/Shell/Haste/Regen or anything of the sort. If you're using Locke as a healer (like you guys have given him the ability to do), you end up with a healer that's pretty much guaranteed to have a turn when you are in a tight spot, and is not super fragile and leaves nukers like Celes, Terra, Relm and Strago to do their thing.

Heya, Ecclesiastes. Good to see you around here.

I was actually wondering when someone would bring up Gogo. We knew in testing that a properly-utilized Gogo would easily be one of the best characters in the game (if not *the* best), though what really pleases me is that it's not due to the one specific setup we thought would allow for it. In fact, I don't think anybody has really spoken much about the one setup we thought would break him.

Augestein, on 03 August 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

So, basically, it's less people underestimating the power of the VE and more me having made the Omega Weapon far more appealing than I thought I had?

This is exactly it.

You know, as pleasantly surprised as you were about what people were doing with Gogo, I don't think I have any idea what that broken setup is.

Omega Weapon doesn't need to be anything more than a stat stick, so its actual damage output is disregarded. People like Terra and Celes don't need to use Fight all that often, nor even Locke if you're really looking to get some magical damage out of him. For those purposes, OW is pretty great for a weapon that never has to hit anything, and when it does, it isn't cut in half by Row. Think Enhancer, but on discreet substances.

Got this one in an email, and I thought I'd share with the rest of the group:

Terra is a World of Ruin nuke that struggles with maintaining her MP in random encounters. She does a fine job in the latter half of the WoB, so long as one remembers to bring along Sleeping Bags to the caves she is forced in. However, she's going to start needing to break Rods to deal major damage to bosses later on in the WoB, and I would not bring her along to the FC without a good supply of Ice Rods to deal with Atma.
That said, once she gets Tritoch, she suddenly has a way to get MP-focused level ups, as well as her core attacks for the remainder of the WoR. A Morphed Terra casting a level 3 spell will make extraordinarly short work of many WoR bosses, even killing WrexSoul before he can possess anyone (and she can seamlessly switch from Ice to Fire attacks with Tiamat). She will still struggle with randoms. Her Vigor is low – and raising her Vigor means that you aren't raising her magical or Morphing capabilities (Stamina/M.Power/MP) – her status spells are limited (Sabin can do eveything except poison, plus more), and Break doesn't quite cut it in the WoR without significant Maduin levels (I get 1800 damage from with Terra in the high 20's with a good deal of Maduin levels). Sleeping Bags, lots of Tinctures, and Chakra can help cover this weakness, and to a small but unreliable degree, the Soul Sabre as well.
Despite her low Vigor, Apocalypse may prove to be Terra's most solid damage source for random encounters. Cheaper than Fire 3, and powerful. Requires front row and giving up the Illumina though. I personally see little reason to pick Soul Box over Gem Box. Carbunkl's +4 Stamina is great if one doesn't like grinding on the Veldt between dungeons to build up Morph, or wants to spam Morph more often.


Locke, I have little experience with because I have gone to Phoenix Cave late both times. He seems fine in the WoB, thanks to his large spell list and Thief's Glove boosting his damage output. For the WoR, he will need to get Phoenix level ups if he wants to take advantage of his large spell list, Sage Stone, or very end game Excalibur. Otherwise, he will be relying on dual wielding with Thief's Glove/Atlas Armlet equipped to deal damage, although his WoR damage of very nice. I've also always used Kirin early game to get him so much needed HP.
It's really not fair for me to analyze Locke, since I've always gotten him so late. My plan with him, unless he's casting a spell (with some Phoenix levels behind him), is probably just to equip nice weapons on him and stab away. I had a lot of success with Atlas Armlet/Hyper Wrist combo last game (Avenger + Zant/Valiant and end game Excal).


Edgar has had me confused for quite a bit. He doesn't have Sabin or Cyan's HP or damage output. Jump is too slow, Chainsaw is slightly low on damage and held back by random cleave, and Edgar needs more Vigor to do the damage Sabin and Cyan do. On the other hand he does have interesting status options unavailable to either of them – game's sole user of MuddleX (NoiseBlaster), Seizure on all enemies, Poison, Mute, early game Sleep, SlowX, Float, Dispel – alongside some emergency healing/Remedy, targetable damage, always backrow, speed-boosting Espers, and Jump.
I haven't used Edgar to his fullest yet, since I've only just now realized his massive status options. I've always tried to keep him low level until Palidor becomes available, since I've never been impressed with Golem's low HP boosts, and only wanted to give him a small amount of Siren level ups. I'd say consider boosting Golem's HP bonus (I haven't been impressed with Vigor Sabin so far).
Jump has been nice. Any Fire/Water weak bosses get massacred from it, and it gives Edgar a way to dodge attacks. It's slow, and Edgar doesn't have the Stamina to take advantage of Regen while jumping.


For Sabin, I am far more impressed with Stamina Sabin than Vigor Sabin. Vigor Sabin's HP boost hardly compares to Stamina Sabin's back row defenses, Regen healing, and Mantra healing. That, and Bum Rush's damage output, while good and cheap, I find to be not to be disappointing, and not far above AuraBolt's. Granted, I played Stamina Sabin on v1.0.5 and Vigor on 1.2.0, so maybe AuraBolt or its formula has changed. Nevertheless, when I did play Stamina Sabin, AuraBolt did comparable damage to Bum Rush, with the capability of hitting a weakness, back row compatibility, and its power could be boosted with Nirvana Band (never found Nirvana Band in that playthrough). This is on top of Stamina Sabin's better defenses, still having access to Royal Jacket, ability to trade out Royal Jacket for Red Cap without having to worry about Vigor loss from no Tiger Mask, Mantra healing, Regen healing, stronger Chakra healing. 20 MP difference first time I entered WoR; that was with V.Sabin having 6-8 Stray levels under his belt from visiting the Magitek Factory.
Not to say that Vigor Sabin is bad. He still has a solid assortment of status spells and decent speed, and Bum Rush still does damage numbering in the 3000s. His physical attacks, with the right set up, also do more damage than Bum Rush, numbering in the 4000s on no weakness and average defense (and faster than Bum Rush too). It's just that Stamina Sabin does all that and more. Having both Stormfang and Frostgore give +7 Vigor also means that Stamina Sabin can maybe attack Bolt/Ice weak enemies for solid damage.
I personally don't care for Golem level ups on either Edgar or Sabin. Course, I'm one person, so I could be missing something.


Celes, I find to be great, and much more versatile than Terra. She doesn't have Terra's offensive-spell capability (very possible lower M.Power, no Fire 3, very possible lower MP once Tritoch comes around, no Morph, late Holy, Merton being more difficult to use than Ultima), I believe she more than makes up for it with her better physical damage capabilities, much earlier access to very solid defensive spells (Seraph and Rerise), large assortment of status spells, more varied level up choices, ability to level up MP much earlier than Terra (Seraph), higher innate HP, Runic for both MP recovery and defensive maneuvers, and last but far from least, her speed/Siren levels. Illumina with her also does very impressive damage, potentially being her hardest hitting attack against enemies without high Defense. Probably wants lots of Seraph/Ramuh levels with it though, as 20 MP per attack can add up.
Celes is definetly a very solid/powerful character, being a Red Mage on steroids. I'd say she's one of the best characters right now. I hardly find her spell list to be that inferior to Terra's, if at all.


Cyan, I'm liking a lot more now that I know Dragon/Eclipse are magic-based. Force Armor, Nirvana Band, Kazekiri, and Hero Ring/Magic Cube allow Dragon to do ~4000 damage and for Eclipse to do ~1700 damage to all enemies, assuming average defense. Course, this also means that I can forgo some Bismark levels and pump Alexander/Kirin into him for massive HP and Regen healing. Empowerer still works perfectly fine from the back row as well. Haven't tried out Cleave on annoying encounters yet though.
He has died to me, but only when some Nastidon's decided to target him specifically for Trampling/Counterattack purposes. The other members of my team were also somewhat low level, so he didn't get healed fast enough. Other than that, his massive HP and back row easily counteract his lowish defenses. And his HP still has yet to see Alexander levels too (and only at level 27 – this is going to be fun >: ).
On a magically-oriented Cyan, Eclipse hardly needs to see a damage boost. Tempest, if it is as lackluster as it was back in my v1.0.5 game where I mainly went Bismark, does need a damage boost though. Other than that, I'm find with my tank Cyan right now.
I've also only just now noticed how many undead have precisely 500 MP (Mindblow's MP damage). I'm going to have to take larger advantage of Cyan's Mindblow, possibly with some Relm/Strago support. Undead killing, here I come.


Shadow is an interesting case. He does have the capability to put out some very nice damage, especially if he can strike an elemental weakness on a large group of enemies with Rogue Cloak boosted scrolls. Having Murasame/Masamune/Ninja Mask for auto-counterattacks is also fairly nice, as well as access to some nifty knives (Avenger and Man Eater stick out for offense, Strike and Stunner for evasion purposes). Shurikens allow for row/defense ignoring damage, although their damage output is lower than Shadow simply fighting (but that back row is starting to look tempting with his low HP). I remember Ninjatos and Ninja Stars doing nice damage in v1.0.5, though I've been sparing them for Kefka's Tower.
His main interesting feature comes in his support. Shadow I've found to switch around between either butchering or supporting, depending heavily on what the characters are up against. If the boss doesn't have a Holy weakness or isn't human, he's probably better off throwing Shurikens in the back row whilst supporting the party with his support spells; don't want him dying. Fenrir, HasteX, Regen, and if one finds the Memento Ring (didn't on my first playthrough), Rerise are all very nice, specially with his speed. Warp, Float, and Smoke Bombs are also very nice. Haven't made a lot of use of Safe yet though.
Shadow's biggest weakness is that one has to be willing to spend money on his Throwables (and snagging the Rogue Cloak, though being on Mt.Zozo, that's ridiculously easy), as without them, he's lackluster and forced into a support-role. Still, with his throwables, he's fairly nice.


Gau is a character who is made or broken based off of how willing one is to experiment/look at the Printme for his different Rages. His ingame strengths and weaknesses are secondary to this.
I'm a Gau fanboy and am very willing to look at the Printme to learn his Rages, and remind myself of what he has available. Gau's has amazing versatility and speed, and selecting the correct Rage for a situation and often mean that Gau will neuter the encounter, or at least, do heavy damage to the enemy. The wrong Rage will mean Gau will end up contributing little whilst eating dirt.
Come the WoR, Gau has the capability to hit all 8 elements with rather strong spells (or in some cases, the strongest spell existing), plus multiple other utility attacks. He also has some nice status Rages with Sleep, early SleepX (Cicada; neuters Owzer's Mansion) early Rerise, Stop, Mute (Gargoyle w/ 1/3 Holy Wind), Stone, Doom, early SlowX, Poison, Discord, not to mention he's the only one capable of inflicting Zombie (1/3 Orog and Zombone), plus Bad Breath/Disaster/Evil Toot. This is on top of having access to Fenrir and HasteX, plus Regen, Imp, Berserk, Muddle, and Warp.
Probably his biggest weakness in the WoR is having to rely on undead Rages to use Fire attacks unless you snag Io (don't forget it in Cyan's Dream). Early Holy (still on an undead) can help counteract this against Undead enemies though. Other than that, with Gau's high speed and the right rage, Gau is a monster that will massacre anything that stands in your way. Just make sure to either pick the right Rage, or pick a solid, universal Rage like Dragon, Behemoth (my favorite, even if it is only a 1/3 chance at Meteo), or Colossus. Also remember to tend to his low HP by keeping him in the back row, and being willing to sacrifice speed for that Snow Muffler's +25% HP boost.
His healing Rages are nice as well, although the stronger ones (Mesosaur, Defender) only have a 1/3 chance. Considering Gau's potentially large Stamina, probably for the best.
So long as I've made sure to use the correct Rage, Gau is my MVP. If he ever finds himself barely able to contribute, it's almost always because I made a tactical error on which Rage to use.
By the way, am I correct in assuming that Gau inherents the elemental strengths/weaknesses and inherent statuses of monsters as found in the Printme? I've noticed that Rages do have inherent elements and status. If this is the case, I need to start considering those when choosing a Rage, to help Gau's defenses as well. >: ) Certainly would make Magic Pot a nicer Rage. Oh, and is Mute supposed to stop Gau from using Rages like Bio Blast or his magic rages?


Mog most definetly prefers to Dance, as opposing to Jump or dual wield. Much earlier access of Maduin, access to Shoat, and low Vigor, all probably contribute to this. Lockirby probably knows more as to why Vigor Mog isn't so hot. Mog's magic isn't as hot as his dances, but he does possess some status spells that I need to try out to take advantage of (like Stone). My only wish is that he had some way of leveling up his MP, so as to take more of an advantage of Terrato/Quake. The damage from those moves is very nice. Maybe their damage output is why he has no way of leveling up his MP. I still consider Mog to be the worst user of the Sage Stone. With Phoenix levels, Locke can do much better than him (X-Bolt 2 and X-Fire 3 do great damage, X-Fire 3 IIRC rivals Morphed Terra).
That said, like Gau, Mog needs to pick the right Dance, although it's much easier with him. Earth Blues is a very powerful, universal Dance that will do massive healing (assuming Maduin levels), plus having access to Avalanche for an earth elemental Flare. Forest Suite is nice for removing status and hitting all enemies (assuming they don't null earth or wind), though Earth Blues has much stronger healing and possibly Mog's strongest single-target damaging dance. El Nino also can butcher large enemy groups, although possibly a little less so in the WoR than in the WoB. Those are the Dances I'm most experienced with. Snowman Jazz looks interesting for enemy group fractional damage, Dusk Requiem for access to insta-death, Love Sonata for hitting fire weakness. Barely used Desert Aria, and didn't use Wind Song too much this game.
For Mog, Maduin and Shoat are definetly his preferred Espers, with Terrato as well for higher HP. The ratio of Maduin and Shoat will determine the strength of Mog's attacks, the strength of Sun Bath/Harvester, Mog's Regen healing and overall defenses, as well as Mog's Dance success rate. Not using Shoat is probably why I've found his damage output from other dances this game to be lackluster, although Sun Bath has been overkill with the healing (won't be overkill come Kefka's Tower, I imagine).
I like the idea of Mog having access to dual wield with Rods, as well as Jumping with Lances. Considering what Lockirby said, though, as Mog's low Vigor, Edgar's higher Vigor, and Punisher being weaker than Apocalypse/Illumina, I'll avoid Vigor Mog for the time being. There's also the problem that Palidor comes later than Maduin/Shoat, possibly too late if one snagged Mog in the WoB and used him for the FC.


Setzer, I haven't used too much this last game. No Shoat levels and being bad at slots means his damage output is lackluster, making him the game's premier White Mage (with much better defenses, but no Life). However, maybe he can do better with his knives/other weapons than I give him credit for (assuming he has Daryl's Soul and Vigor boosting equipment/relics). I've just been, so far, waiting 'til he gets Fixed Dice to use him. Probably a bad idea if one wants to use Setzer.
Still, previous experience with Setzer is that, even as a White Mage, he's nice. He definetly does need to take advantage of his Slots, even if it's just to get minor, MP-less healing on the party. Otherwise, he's either stuck with spending MP or hitting for OK damage. Bio will probably never do significant damage without lots of Shoat levels (base 48 power). Stone is interesting, but it is his only status option.
As far as healing goes, he has access to Seraph, Rerise, Cure 2, Cure 3, RegenX (and Starlet's +4 Stamina level up), and Remedy. Slots can cover for Cure, meaning he is only missing Life/Life 2, so don't forget those Phoenix downs. All this, plus access to very strong armor for high defenses. He's slow, but he's probably the game's best healer. Just make sure to use the Slots, even if it's just for the cheap healing.
I need to get better with Slots.


Strago and Relm stink in the WoB, and start to shine in the WoR. Far more so than Terra.


Strago is kind of like Shadow in the WoR, in having some interesting offensive and defensive options, meaning he'll dance around a bit with what he does. Thanks to Osmose, and access to Shiva/Zoneseek levels (and no use for the Carbunkl levels), plus Sage Stone for double cast, Strago will never had MP problems, save for when you first get him in the WoB. Never. Relm will have problems, Celes will, Terra is infamous for it. Strago can just keep casting all day. Heck, double-cast Osmose, carefully used, can probably allow him to spam Black Omen as well (haven't tried it too much yet).
Lots of Zoneseek levels (with early Shiva levels for quick MP boosts) this game has meant that Strago is swimming in MP and Magic for killing. Even without Black Omen (or Tsunami, forgot to snag it in the Underground Cave), X-Ice 2 and Raze do fine damage, and Aero isn't bad for hitting all enemies. Blowfish is also nice, and is much better than Break will ever be (much cheaper, nonelemental, and Break needs lot of M.Power to do significantly more damage).
Strago also has a very wide variety of defensive options, much more so than Shadow. Three different ways to set Reflect (two ignore Runic), two to set Shell, and a way to set Image (that goes through Reflect). Lategame Shield means he is the only one who can cast SafeX. That, even without Zoneseek, he can set Shell on the party very quickly. Some others have made use of Holy Wind, despite his low HP (cuts through Reflect/Runic), although I'd probably prefer Mog for Sun Bath. He also has access to Bad Breath for status, as well as Discord (even once it loses level down, Berserk will be nice). I also need to try out X-Rasp against undead as well.
One just has to make sure to snag Tsunami (Underground Castle, IIRC), and early Phoenix Cave for Raze/Refract. Also remember Brainpan's for Blowfish (don't skip fighting them on the FC), and Sprinter's on WoR map for Aero, but those don't require doing early dungeon raids.
I don't think I've ever bothered attacking with the Rods. I guess Punisher could prove useful, but Strago, unlike Relm (or Slotless Setzer) has plenty of ways to hurt the enemy or contribute in combat.


Relm, I have little experience with her. Meteor and Flare are great, but one will have to forgo Ifrit or Starlet level ups in favor or Zoneseek for those two to do good damage (they can't strike a weakness). I avoided Starlet this game, so we'll see how that turns out come Kefka's Tower. Haven't tried out summoning Bahamut for early game Ultima yet. She'll definetly need Bahamut level ups.
I would presume, for randoms, that I would need to learn which enemy groups have something worthwhile to Sketch, and which don't. I haven't learned that very well, so I've had to rely on Flare/Meteor, Osmose when low on MP, and hitting with a paintbrush for healing/status during randoms. She isn't as effective as Strago with Osmose thanks to lack of Sage Stone and lower Magic Power. If you switch Osmose over to being Stamina based, this will hurt her Osmose even more whilst barely affecting Strago. Strago comes with high Stamina, while Relm has to sacrifice Ifrit/Zoneseek level ups just to increase her stamina (and so far, her only use for Stamina levels is RegenX). I guess if you plan to give her a Stamina increase, it wouldn't be too bad. Giving Strago a Stamina decrease would also mean he wouldn't quite have infinite MP either.
So far, it seems that if I want to use Relm more effectively, I'm going to have to bring her along to more places in the future and see which enemies are worth Sketching. Without that, she's completely dependent on Flare/Meteor/Osmose (backed by Zoneseek levels aplenty) to contribute at all. So please, if you do make Osmose Stamina dependent, consider boosting Relm's starting Stamina.
Relm has little use for Rods outside of boosting Magic Power. So long as she has Zoneseek levels, her paintbrushes are simply much more versatile, and don't rely on her laughable Vigor. I guess Punisher's Flare could prove useful, but 1/2 chance means that she'd spend, on average, 40 MP just to see it. Flare costs 50 MP, so she isn't conserving that much MP, and is sacrificing reliability. So, just stick with Paintbrushes unless one doesn't give her Zoneseek levels (because without Zoneseek levels, Flare/Meteor won't be that great).


Gogo and Umaro I haven't used that much. I think this game, I'll sacrifice Setzer for Gogo once I get Gogo/in Kefka's Tower. No good with Slots, and didn't raise Setzer's Magic. That, and I think I can get other people to cover the healing role.

Ecclesiastes, on 04 August 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

In a word: Bushido.

Empowerer keeps his MP up (this was before I turned raid into an HP/MP drain), he gets great damage out of Dragon, and he can spam Cleave like nobody's business (early incarnations of Kefka's Tower had a *lot* more enemies vulnerable to instant death attacks).

WoB It was the all Edgar show. His tools are super powerful even into the beginning of WoR. After that it's been stamina Sabin, Celes and now that I've found some of the really good lores, strago finally has a place in an FF3 game for me. Cyan has also come on really strong now that he has Cleave.

*breaks lurker status*

After just finishing the game this morning, I figured now would be the best time to cast my vote, and also discuss all the characters.


My vote for MVP was Celes. Not only was she my favorite character in Vanilla (even though I didn't ever use runic), but she improved so much in this mod. I really loved her in the team leader role. I ended up making her a vigor/magic hybrid. I think the stats I had her with at the end of the game looked something like this:

Level 50
Hp: ~3200
MP: ~660

Vigor: 85
Magic: 70
Stam: ~50
Speed: ~50


She was a beast, her Cure 2 healed a shit-ton even when split, her Ice 3's were doing about 8k and her hits with the zanasdkfasdf sword were doing about 5-6k a hit on average. I imagine that I could've withheld levels to get her more magic, but I feel that this was her sweet spot. Runic in this mod is just amazing, I can't imagine not having Celes around at least for fights with caster bosses. I was however super pissed that only Terra got the gem box X(


Honorable mentions (IE the rest of my main party):


Setzer


Holy crap, I used Setzer. I NEVER use Setzer, I always found him a bit lame before this mod. I probably could've built him a bit differently, but I got him about 100 magic, and put the rest in HP/MP and he ended up healing for about 1500+ with go fish. His damaging slots did anywhere from 6-8k, and most of the random summons hit for 8-9k. I think I got a 4k Kirin in there too. He's crazy good, I actually never took him out of my party, except to level other folks to prepare for Phoenix cave and Kefka's Tower. I'd usually use him to cast regenx and then slot it up in boss battles.


Locke


Locke was actually a very late addition to my main party, as he was one of the last members I got in WOR. However, when I was catching him up to the rest of the party in preparation for Kefka's Tower I learned just how awesome he was. I built him to have about 90 vigor and about 75 speed and he was just amazeballs. I gave him the Valiant Edge and an Avenger which was a little overkill. He was doing anywhere from 6-8k with VE and 4-6k with Avenger. He was also a crazy good backup healer, I've never seen anyone cast a full-party Cure 3 that fast .


Gau (yes, Gau)


Gau was another character that I really loved in Vanilla that carried over to this mod. I really didn't like how squishy he was (especially because I set a limit of level 10 until I got espers), but after leveling him with Stray until he had about 100 stamina with a life bell he was able to hold himself up pretty well. I experimented with a few different rages, but either out of laziness or because I ran around with my fast forward button until step mine was doing 2k in Sabin's scenario, I kind of always used Repo Man. And right when he was starting to get outclassed by other characters, I had a grinding session (which gave me a bunch of steps) and another running spurt he ended up doing about 8k with Step Mine towards endgame, which made him quite the little powerhouse. Plus his fire immunity came in handy. Plus, I HAD to use him, since there's so many Gau haters out there.



Now, the rest:


Edgar


I actually really enjoyed using Edgar up until floating continent, I felt he was starting to slip from his long rule as king of damage and utility. I didn't really focus too much on his esper growths, as I knew that I wasn't going to use him too much for it to count, I did give him a good amount of vigor and HP though. I chose to use him in my 3rd party in Kefka's Tower as a dragoon and holy crap his damage was pretty nuts. He was about level 40 and was doing 9k jumps. I might consider bringing him along for main party the next time I play through this.


Sabin


I actually really enjoyed Sabin, I went the typical Stamina build and Aurabolted things in the face (later on anyway). I kicked him out of my party as soon as espers came about, because I wanted Gau in my main party, and wanted him to get all the Stamina to keep him up with Regen. Sabin really shined for me when I did use him though, at level 30 doing about 5k per Aurabolt. He was a staple in my 2nd party for both Phoenix cave and Kefka's Tower. I will probably use him next playthrough instead of Gau, however I might try out the vigor build since Stamina is getting a nerf (or so I hear).


Cyan


I usually hated using Cyan in vanilla, but I thought he was pretty alright, I ended up using him in floating continent up until halfway through getting everyone in WOR. I loved using Dragon, however when Dragon's damage started falling by the wayside compared to the other characters I stopped using him. He ended up being the captain of my 3rd team in Kefka's Tower. He didn't do too bad doing about 1.8k a pop with Tempest. With his re-works for next patch, I might bring him on full-time.


Terra


I've always been a little meh with Terra. I always found Celes to be better in every way in Vanilla, however I did enjoy that Terra was way more magic focused in this patch. She was even a bit overpowered, even out of Morph, in fact, I barely used Morph when I used her. I used her mostly as a support unit, rather than a fire cannon, as I usually paired Terra with Relm. But even out of Morph, she was probably one of the first to hit the damage cap. She was in my 2nd team for Phoenix cave and Kefka's Tower.



Umaro


He's shit.



Mog


I really only gave him Maudin levels for as high of magic and stam as possible, and once I did that he became a solid member in my 3rd party for Kefka's Tower. Earth Blues is my favorite dance, didn't really care for the rest. I might use him more in my next playthrough.


Strago


I only used him when I had to, I told myself to try him out this time, but I just couldn't be bothered. His magic selection is garbage, and I was already worried about finding as many rages as I could to be bothered with lores. He stayed behind with Umaro in the airship.


Relm


I promised myself I would use her this time, but she ended up being team captain for my 2nd team. I actually really enjoy her, she's quite the little firecracker. I loved spamming flare on things and watching them die. Also meteor spamming was awesome for grinding with her If she had a little more white magic, I would probably use her in the main party, but I usually paired her with Terra so I wouldn't have to worry so much. I did use sketch a few times, and it wasn't as bad as it was before, but it still kind of sucked. I guess it was because most of the time, when I decided to use it, the monsters wouldn't take any damage from it. She's definitely a contender for main party next playthrough though.



Shadow

I didn't use him much, as I leveled Celes with Phantom for a while, but when I did use him, I thought he was a bit of a lamer Locke clone, until I remembered to buy Shurikens (like when I was prepping for Kefka's Tower, I know I'm awful ) and had fun with Shadow playing buffer and back-row hero doing about 4k per Shuriken. He was a decent addition to my 3rd party.


Gogo


Gogo was in my 2nd team, I basically just loaded it(?) up with defense gear, slapped Gogo in the back row and had fun with Repo Man.


I will definitely be playing this mod again, and who knows, I might have a different MVP the next time around. I had this conflicted feeling throughout, where sometimes I really loved having characters have their own paths, but at the same time I felt that some characters got a little screwed, but maybe that's just me, because I had a bit of a shellshock when I had everyone learn what they could and found a lack of white magic in a few characters.

glassluxury, on 16 September 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

You can trade it in at the coliseum for Celes' version. We did this so discourage players from swapping the relic back and forth between Celes and Terra in multi-party dungeons.

Up to and including ZoZo - mana-less AoE damagers rule the day. Specifically, Edgar /w Flash, Sabin /w Flame Dance and Gau's rages (though less so, because unpredictable).

Sabin is especially useful, 'cause also epic single-target damage.

Casters are only really useful in healer capacity, but can be compensated with tons and tons of Dried Meat.

Synchysi, on 17 September 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

Well, I'm sure you guys know what I will be doing next playthrough

I'm rather curious if any of these votes will change due to the new version... I can see Cyan potentially overtaking Sabin, and I have no idea about Terra.

Dynalo, on 02 August 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

How is the Valiant Edge a better option for Locke? The Valiant Edge sucks. Maybe you mean the Avenger is a better option for Locke? Zantetsuken still offers +10 magic evade, which can be a big deal in certain situations.

Note: my view is colored by low-level gaming.

The Valiant Edge ignores defense, which makes it one of the most powerful, if not *the* most powerful single-hit weapon in the game (qualifying "single-hit" to exclude the random casts from the Apocallumina).

A lot of people get side-tracked by the "stronger-at-lower-HP" property, thinking that the Valiant Edge works the same way as the Atma Weapon. It doesn't; rather, each point of HP Locke is missing when he attacks gets added to the final damage calculation.

It's probably not terribly attractive in low-level runs and will likely be eschewed in favor of better stat sticks.

The Valiant Edge is amazing. That is all.