Folder2 - A Word about the Mod's Curve

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#1 Hart-Hunt

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27 February 2015 - 11:24 AM

Cut / Pasted this into a new thread, because I see this could deserve its own thread.

So, I've been designing the battle formations (which are roughly more than 600 in this game). I've mostly finished Day 7, which is the day where you get into Hades Isle and do the main N1 event (What I call DesertMan's scenario). The formations still need testing though.

So far, I've tested up to BeastMan's scenario (and a bit of what's next after it), and I'm noticing that S-Ranking battles is an issue. General modding discussion time.

While I've improved the drops from the enemies, so that most codes will have a fair use, the best codes are still dropped by making the high ranks in battles. This means that being good at the battles gives you the best tools for being better at the game, which is basically a flawed concept. A game (any game) should give you the tools to improve your performance, even if you're not the best player from day 1. This is attempted to be fixed within the engine in two certain ways: Treasures, and Shops.
Treasures are fixed rewards (aka tools) that you get by exploring (we assume that the player wants to explore, otherwise he deserves its own in-game hell), while shops are a very good workaround.
Shops are a good workaround (more emphasized in the mod), because zenny drops are more common if you get low rankings in the battles. Since the zenny they give is *a lot* higher than in vanilla, and the shops' prices were severely lowered, that means that having more battles with low ranking means having lots of Zenny to buy more chips (tools) to improve your game.

But I still feel that's not enough. I feel there's still a gap between the possibility of getting better at the game, and the feeling of being progressively trapped into a part of the game where the difficulty will scale beyond the player's capabilities. Now, for the mod to be successfull, I need to fix this before the player gets to the mid / mid-end game. There's two ways that I'm gonna be using in the mid-game to attempt to definitely fix this.

The N1 Event. During both the N1 second-preliminaries and the N1 main event (DesertMan's Scenario), you're locked into using a total of 3 Extra Folders, designed by me. This means that during that fair segment of the game, I'm in control of what tools the player will be provided with. The Extra folders then become essential, to teach the player how to build a proper folder, to teach him what some obscure chips do and how they canbe combined, to teach him about program advances, and also to teach him that extra folders here are valuable. While I'm gonna nerf Extra Folder a bit to balance it for BeastMan's scenario, I'm still gonna let it be useful for that same reason, to tease the player into considering using it, to open his mind to other possibilities (also, to teach the player that less codes = good).
The first point mentioned is just a brain teaser for the player. It does give you more tools via the Extra Folders, but that's fairly limited because you can't customize them in any way, so they're extremely inflexible versus different areas or sets of enemies. Here's where Folder2 comes into play. Folder2 is a 30 chip folder handed to you after the N1, which in other words is 30 free chips that go into your stack. If the player is in a situation where he's with little options to S-Rank formations in general, those 30 chips need to be able to salvage his situation. That needs to be the definitive fix for any playthrough, especially for blind players who are lost with too many codes and too little possibilities to get the best ranks.

So that's what this thread is about. At first, I thought Folder2 was a liability as a modder, but after testing a segment of the game as a difficulty mod (and noticing what would happen if things continued this way) I now realize it's a necessary thing to occur in my mod to be playable and beatable with its proper difficulty curve.

I'll be posting here my thoughts about Folder2. You're welcome to give me your suggestions about it, or to correct me if you disagree with what I've brainstormed above. Thanks for reading. :girl:

#2 JCOnyx

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27 February 2015 - 05:12 PM

Huh, I never really thought about it that way, but you're absolutely right. The way the drops work in this game, they only reward players who are already capable of S-Ranking enemies to begin with.

I do think that a perfectly built Folder2 would be a little much to hand over the player though. Instead, you should give them sets of 3-4 of some of the most useful chips with their most usable codes. That way, the player can take the chips that best suit their unique playstyle and maximize their folders potential. As you said, Folder2 comes after the N1 event so they've already had a chance to experiment with the Extra Folders, so they should understand what a decent folder looks like. Now, what chips should be in Folder2 is debatable and I'm interested in what you think the player should be provided with. Too much utility and the game will become really easy for those already proficient at MMBN games, too little and you'll still have blind players suffering from the same problems.

#3 Hart-Hunt

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27 February 2015 - 05:57 PM

JCOnyx, on 27 February 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Too much utility and the game will become really easy for those already proficient at MMBN games, too little and you'll still have blind players suffering from the same problems.

Yes, that's why I'm gonna need the feedback. I'm thinking giving 1, 2 copies max of some S-Ranking rewards for enemies the player has already encountered. That way I'm not giving anything "new". I could also limit it to say, Day 5 or so, limiting the power of the chips I give.

#4 Windviper245

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27 February 2015 - 10:14 PM

oh while im thinking about it, this could also make some sidequest a pain, like trying to get the iceball chip for the kid at the hospital. New players might have a hard time s ranking some things if they don't know ways to do it easily, such as abusing field setups and good chip combos to work with in their folders, for both regular virus busting or boss battles. This could also make the end game setups a nightmare, if you just straight up nerf too much it can make some battles last much longer then they need to , which in turn could cause a problem with some end game enemies(if you have too many weak chips and no folder back chip you might run out of chips against some end game enemies for example)

I would agree with giving folder 2 a good chip set but not making it too powerful. Chips that are supposed to be in that folder specifically like the pawn and stuff are good to have, but other chips to balance it out can help newer players to the series.

#5 Hart-Hunt

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Posts: 3,847

27 February 2015 - 11:09 PM

Windviper245, on 27 February 2015 - 10:14 PM, said:

Don't worry, that one's covered. There's 3 needed chips in the storyline: Yo-Yo1 G is commonly dropped by Yo-Yos, and it's also dropped in SciLab2 GMDs, LongSwrd E is a *very* noticeable BMD in ACDC3, and IceBall M is both dropped by ColdHeads (which are now in Beach Area, I'll fix the dialogues to point that out), AND it is also sold in a shop (because fuck grinding a chip for that wheelchair guy) :kappa:

.

If you guys can think of specific chips that the player should have at that moment (like Pawn as you mentioned, that one is a BMD in ZooComp), note them, I'll add them in Folder2 if they're not already in a BMD.

#6 Augestein

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02 March 2015 - 07:04 PM

Well it S ranking is becoming a problem, couldn't you alter the time to give people a bit more wiggle room as well?

I like the idea of giving the player a relatively powerful folder that they can use for their own benefit. That seems like a good solution and makes those folders actually something you can look forward to rather than something that is simply a pain to have. Like I was saying for the tournament part, I like the folder that you set up for us for the preliminaries on N1. It's stronger than what you'd realistically have, but not gamebreaking either. If I wanted to, I could have grinded a bit with folder to get some stronger chips. But I feel that it was unnecessary for me and I continued regardless.

#7 Hart-Hunt

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02 March 2015 - 07:47 PM

Augestein, on 02 March 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Well it S ranking is becoming a problem, couldn't you alter the time to give people a bit more wiggle room as well?

While in part this is a good point, I don't want to mess around with those because the vanilla players might be used to it and play around them. Those are things that I want to leave intact, to preserve the original's feeling (and difficulty ing eneral to S Rank).

Augestein, on 02 March 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Like I was saying for the tournament part, I like the folder that you set up for us for the preliminaries on N1. It's stronger than what you'd realistically have, but not gamebreaking either. If I wanted to, I could have grinded a bit with folder to get some stronger chips. But I feel that it was unnecessary for me and I continued regardless.

Checking out your next vid, it seems like you're on the part with the fixed folder. I totally forgot you were there, I'd have given you a beta of the next version which is up to that point. The new Prelim Folder is a bit better than the one you recorded with, check it out in the Extra Folders thread if you're not aware.

The thing about Folder2 is that it's not locked. You can take out the chips and use it in your own folder, that's the whole point, and the reason this is a separate thread from the Extra Folders one.

And most importantly, Momogras (your pain) are a lot slower. They are designed for humans now.