Insane Difficulty: WOTL vs FFT - Insane Difficulty

Again, not going to fault anyone for preferring one bad translation over another. My goal here is not to get people to like it, but I think you're all missing their intent.

Unlike most FF games, FFT, FFTA, FFXII (and vagrant story) take place in the same world, just in different eras (a la Zelda continuity). FFT came first so the "history" of this world was fleshed out after its release. WOTL was released over a year after FFXII and the devs took the opportunity to retroactively reintroduce the original Ivalice to the more fleshed out version that had evolved over time, giving the series continuity. Kyozo, you mention "Zigolis - Tchigolith" but if you remember in FFXII, 'Tch' was used as a hard 's' sound. Think Tchita Uplands, which is pronounced in-game with voice acting as "cita". Thus the pronunciation is not far off from Zigolis, with the 's' and 'th' being switched a la Aerith.

Algus is to Argath as Aeris is to Aerith. And despite how racist it sounds, the frequent mixups of l's and r's are incredibly common translation mistakes. We're accustomed to hating Algus, but I think we would have hated him just as much had the original translation correctly named him Argath from the beginning. Some of the other seemingly unnecessary added letters, like in the word "magick", is at least consistent with Ivalician dialect as established in FFXII.

FFT takes place a thousand years after FFXII. There is an implied history between eras*, most notably the extinction of all races besides the Humes. Looking back to the politicks (haha, joke) within FFXII, how would you suppose this came to be? The uppity, more refined higher class aristocracy won "the war". What are you then left with? The high class conquering aristocracy with no one left to suppress but the lower class for the better part of a millennium, which is precisely what FFT is.

*Again, not unlike Zelda continuity, like Windwaker taking place 1000 years after OOT, the world getting flooded and the implied evolution of the Zoras into the Ritos)

It stands to reason that the higher class might hold onto, perhaps even exaggerate their old, refined dialect, while the lower class is born into that being the correct speech, but are less formal about it (dropping r's, etc). If Hitler had won WW2, we'd all be speaking German. And if you read the WOTL translation with all that in mind, it actually makes a lot of sense. Go back and re-play just through the Gariland fight and read the highborn text with a FFXII Archadian accent, and imagine the lower class in a more piratey version of that same dialect, and you'll see I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass.

I understand being used to one way and not liking the other. FFT has a place in all our hearts. Just like, to me, Aeris will always be Aeris and not Arith, I don't blame people for not liking Argath, but at the very least, I have come to accept that the WOTL translation is FAR closer to "correct" than the original, which you have to admit was incredibly piss-poor. At this point, though, I have played WOTL exclusively for so long (mainly due to the extra features/accouterments) that the original FFT translation appears as unfamiliar as the WOTL translation appears to most of you. I like it a lot better because at least it is consistent and tells a more fluid story. Did they go a little overboard? Maybe, but it still feels more "correct"

Had this translation come out first, this thread would be about how child-like and borderline racist (Engrish) the PSX translation is compared to WOTL.

philsov, on 20 October 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

I was typing up my reply while you were typing yours, but I'll point out that I believe the disconnect here is that most people assume that the translation is different for the sake of different, and I maintain that it was blown up and re-written as it was intended to be from the beginning (or as it would have been intended to be written had the original game been released in 2007).

As for Golgorand, I'm not sure it needs to be exactly Golgotha to be a reference.

DrBretto, on 20 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

That doesn't make it suck any less.

DrBretto, on 20 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

The difference being that Aerith was a difference in translation, and whatever you said is an attempt to redefine that which had been redefined for over a decade (I'm guessing here; I didn't bother to do the math).

DrBretto, on 20 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

That's not the point; the point is that it's trying to redefine stuff like that in the player's mind. You can't just have a game that's been extraordinarily popular for over a decade and then try to reinvent it. It is a fool's errand; you will not succeed. You'll just succeed in pissing off the fanbase of said game, and at best pleasing a fraction of it that thinks that's ye olde english how it should've been.

DrBretto, on 20 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Interesting. I've been playing the HD version of that recently, and it didn't really cross my mind that the Ritos were evolved Zoras, though it does make sense.

DrBretto, on 20 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

The part that bugs me so much isn't even the garbage disposal script, it's how they consistently try to redefine every name (from location to characters), every skillset, etc. Characters are by far the biggest offender, here. It interferes with that character's identity in the mind of the player.

DrBretto, on 20 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Of course we would, but it didn't, so that's really a moot point at best.

It's kind of like releasing a public beta: once you release it and your base gets their hands on it, it's inevitable that a lot of people -- even knowing it's a beta -- are going to form their opinions on the finished product from it. It's also the same for any public figure who's trying to reinvent his or herself.

The case with FFT -> WotL is just a more advanced stage of that.

Advent, on 20 October 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

It's not a moot point. It's a very valid point that when they redid the translation that they would CORRECT the problems from the original, and in my eyes, that's exactly what they did. Now, again, the goal isn't to convert people into preferring one over the other, but to get people to understand that these chances weren't done willy-nilly just for the fuck of shit. It was changed to how it should have been from the beginning. It was corrected with in-universe consistency. The point here is to get people to at least appreciate that part, so people can understand that it wasn't just some added ye olde english and name changes for the sake of name changes. It's just a far more accurate translation.

I totally get the nostalgia. It's just that it's only that.

I totally get the in-universe consistency, it's just that the translation just undoes all the good that consistency could ever hope to do for me. Like, once I know about how it adds consistency, there's little point anymore, because I know the story in my head.

Advent, on 20 October 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Which just illustrates my original overall point

If you're playing a modified version of FFT, you know the story already. WOTL having more to offer to mod in the first place means more game-related fun with an optional new take on the story if you should even bother to read it, thus WOTL should be, at this point in time, the de facto modding paradise that the PSX version has been over the years.

I meant specifically the little bits WotL adds in, which I didn't know about before playing it, which was long after I started playing 1.3.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand how disappointing WOTL could be out of the box, with expectations and all that. It's just that all seems so outdated to me now that the slowdown has been fixed and there is a very well made emulator that runs it perfectly. If you can take the translation for what it is and use it just as a different look on what the story was supposed to be in the first place, it's just another look, the only downgrade there is left is the bad sound compression. Especially when you can easily mod the game to fix the unbalanced or undewhelming specials. It was pretty easy to get rid of barage and give luso a legitimate skillset (I renamed him and made him a goddamn blue mage with ramza-like male and female PA/MA growths). And there's no denying the value of 8 more slots to put those new specials into. Some nice new damage formulas to play with as well, including most notably the knight sword HP-drain, as well as being able to use equipment breaking sword skills on monsters, etc.

And I think the reason it just bothers me is this attitude of "no, WOTL sucks and that's that". I like it better and there's not a goddamn thing wrong with that. I've had more experience with it than probably anyone here. I had an open mind about it and it really grew on me.

DrBretto, on 20 October 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I maintain just as much as I did before when you made that claim that you're full of shit.

I have yet to have that game run at anything above mediocre in PPSSPP.

One last factor here, I think people are looking at it like they took the american release and changed everything. I'm looking at it like a complete re-translation from original japanese source material, or even from the material that inspired it.

Advent, on 20 October 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

It's constantly being upgraded. Like literally as of the last month or so, this game runs smooth as fuck on it. It runs perfectly. Download the latest version and PM me your email address, I'll send you my copy of what I've been working on. It'll run like a goddamn champ without any configuration. Only you can go into it and increase the internal resolution to make the edges a little smoother (with little to no slowdown). It even has shaders built in (I don't know if you've ever wrestled with the cartoon shaders made for EPSXE, but it can be a bitch of a process getting it started. Don't use that one for WOTL though, it looks like shit).

and they have finally unlocked the ability to play the multiplayer modes over the internet (though Mari and I are still figuring out what to do to get it to work, others have already been successful). So as soon as we figure out the exact process and what ports to forward and all that, I'll write up a guide and people can actually take their own save files and play against or with each other in real time from the other side of the world.

I might give it another whirl at some point, then.

I sent you a PM. Send me your email and just try the first battle in full screen. It's literally no setup required*, just download the latest stable PPSSPP for windows and my ISO that I will send you, then run it in full screen and let me know what you think.

*provided you use the xbox standard for your controller, like a ps3 controller through DS3, but in xbox mode, because that standard is already there and you won't even have to remap your controler buttons. I use a PS3 controller that way and the R2 button is even defualted to a "hold for zoom" button. You could tweak it to be more like PSX controls (PSP doesn't have L2/R2, and you rotate the map via left analog stick) and L2 defaults to PPSSPP menu button, but I remapped that to the PS button and set up L3 and R3 to save and load states on the fly. To, you know, make cheating easier.

Okay, I stand corrected. After delving into the first battle for a couple minutes, the emulator runs.. pretty damn smooth. I can't see any flaws with it in battle, at least.

+2 for you for trying, good sir!

I mean shit, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No shame in that.

I couldn't really chime in on that in-depth analysis of the two translations but I would definitely agree with Dr.B and say WOTL is the better version, especially with the prospect of multiplayer on PPSSPP...

Besides how many of us truly bother reading the story every playthrough anymore

Bishop, on 19 October 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

Man, you'd be amazed how hard some people defend the WOTL translation as being a form of English that was actually used at a point in history.

Archael, on 20 October 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Yeah, it's definitely not real English. I call it Old Achadian. It's KIND of based on something like an English accent, but it's its own thing.