So based on having played through the stages up to this point in the hack, playtesting various scenarios, and running THE MATHS: it would seem that I overdid it when it comes to buffing large characters. They're basically just better than small characters right now, and as the game goes on, this only gets worse. The latter mechanic was, to a certain degree, intended: later on in the game, pretty much your entire front line is going to consist of special characters and large characters (unless you just decide not to use any large characters), so I wanted to help them compete with special characters. But I've toned down the potency of special characters quite a bit now, so I'm not as concerned about that anymore, and these current advantages may be overkill as well.
Early Game:
Here's a comparison of a Knight and a Giant at lv 5 in the current hack:
HP: Knight has about 104 and a Giant has about 156. So Giants have 50% more HP, but you can have 2 Knights in the same space that you'd have 1 Giant, so in theory a Giant only has 75% as much HP as the 2 Knights combined. However, each Knight is individually easier to kill than the single Giant, and unit death is a big pain in the ass. This serves as a bonus in favor of Giant, but it's not clear exactly how much. There is also the fact that 2 Knights essentially take twice as much damage as a Giant from AoE attacks, and receive twice as much healing from Healing+ (while a Giant could be healed by a damage-dealing Dollmaster or the more powerful single-target Paladin heals), but since these aren't major factors in the early game, we won't be considering those here.
Attack Count: Knight gets 2 and Giant gets 3. 50% more for Giants once again, but we're considering 2 Knights here, so it's really 4 to 3 or a 133% advantage for Knights. There's really no extra complexity here, this is purely an advantage for the Knights.
Elemental Resists: Giants get a bit of an edge here, though not a huge one.
Agility: This is dead even, so not a factor.
Intelligence: This only matters for magic defense. Knights and Giants have the same stat growth for Int, but Giants have 4 more base, so a bit of an advantage for Giants.
Strength: This is where Giant really pulls ahead, having 11 more Str at this level range and gaining an extra point over Knight with each levelup. Offensively, this tends to cancel out the offense advantage of the 4 attacks that 2 Knights get, and even push Giant ahead of them due to the extra penetration power of higher Str making their offense more reliable. Defensively, this along with the slight resistance advantage and small Intelligence advantage, also pushes Giant ahead in survivability. And by that I mean: even if the Knights could combine their HP, the Giant would probably still take the lead. Considering Knights also defensively suffer from being easier to individually kill, this is a pretty big advantage for the Giant.
So going by the above metrics, I think Giants will need to be nerfed, and then other large monsters will need to be adjusted according to that same nerf. But lets proceed to a comparison of their growth stats:
Growth Stats:
Here I'm going to be comparing the average growth stats of Paladin and Gigas:
HP: Paladin gets an average of 7 HP per level and Gigas gets an average of 10. This is actually toned down compared to the level 5 comparison, With Gigas now having about 43% more HP growth. The same drawback of Paladins being easily to individually kill apply, but it's no longer possible to ignore...
AoE Effects: Any pair of small characters are essentially affected double by AoE effects compared to a large one. This isn't entirely a negative thing, due a 2x Healing+, but it is more negative than positive. The exact effect of this effect is difficult to calculate.
Attack Count: Paladins now get 3 attacks each while a Gigas gets 4. This is also worse for the Gigas than the lv 5 comparison, with Paladins getting a combined 6 attacks and Gigas getting 4. Also, Gigas's 4th attack is coming pretty late in the battle, compared to its previous 3rd attack. Paladin gets a simple 50% advantage from this factor (possibly even slightly more due to coming earlier in the round).
Elemental Resists: Same story as before, pretty much. Small advantage for Gigas.
Agility: Gigas gets 1 more Agility growth than Paladin. We'll discuss stat advantage in general in the last section.
Intelligence: Gigas gets 1 more Intelligence growth than Paladin. We'll discuss stat advantage in general in the last section.
Strength: This is the big one. Gigas gets 6 average Str growth compared to Paladin's 4. This combined with the Agi and Int advantages and the AoE effect advantage has the potential to blow the previously stated Paladin advantages out of the water, but lets take a look at...
Stat Advantages: Pretty much the only reason Gigas gets 1 more stat point growth in Str, Agi, and Int than Giant is special characters. In total, you can get 19 special characters in the game (including the Lord and Galf). With the player having access to 10 deployments at 5 characters each: this comprises up to 38% of your army by the end of the game. Furthermore, 11 of these characters are well-suited for the front line, and by this point in the game, most squads are probably going to have 2 slots used in the front and 3 slots used in the back (though hopefully my changes have reduced this preference some). Taking this into account, special characters are likely to take up 55% of the front line by the end of the game. So I essentially had to decide if I wanted to balance large monsters with generic small units or special small units. Overall, I think the best approach is to aim for somewhere in-between. For now, lets compare current Gigas and a Giant with 1 additional HP growth to a Paladin...
Gigas vs. Generic Paladin:
Agi: Gigas gets 1 more Agi growth than a Paladin. This means more dodging, better accuracy, and acting earlier in the round. Compared to a special character, a Gigas would probably have less Agi for most of the game, but pull ahead a bit toward the end of the game.
Int: Gigas gets 1 more Int growth than a Paladin. This means more magic dodging and better defense vs. magic. Compared to a special character, a Gigas would probably have less Int for most of the game, but pull ahead a bit toward the end of the game.
Str: Gigas gets 2 more Str growth than a Paladin. This means much more attack damage and defense vs. physical attacks. Compared to a special character, a Gigas's Str advantage would be closer to 1 more than 2 more, pulling ahead a bit beyond that toward the end of the game.
Overall vs. Generic Paladin: A Gigas has 43% more HP compared to a single Paladin, which means 71.4% when compared to 2 Paladins. A Gigas also only gets 67% as many attacks as 2 Paladins. A Gigas is affected half as much by AoE effects and is more difficult to individually kill than the Paladins. A Gigas will act faster, strike more accurately, evade more, and have better magic defense than a Paladin. It will also hit significantly harder and have considerably more physical defense. These factors can't be precisely mathed out, but if the lv 5 comparison is any guide, this comparison will be even more heavily in favor of the Gigas, despite the Paladin's gains in HP and attack count.
Gigas vs. Special Paladin:
Agi: Gigas gets about the same Agi, starting a bit lower and ending a bit higher than a special character.
Int: Gigas gets about the same Int, starting a bit lower and ending a bit higher than a special character.
Str: Gigas gets 1 more Str growth than a special character in general, having < 1 more str growth earlier and > 1 more Str growth later.
Overall vs. Special Paladin: Same story as above for many of the factors: the Gigas has ~70% HP, 67% as many attacks, half effect from AoE, lower individual mortality. Although special character HP will compare a bit more favorably. Accuracy, speed, evasion, and magic defense are now about the same. Gigas still gets significantly more Str than even a special character, gaining about 1 more per level. This will increase Gigas' damage output and reduce the physical damage they receive. So, to structure these factors another way:
Pros: Higher attack damage, higher physical defense, half effect from AoE, lower individual mortality
Cons: 70% as much total HP, 67% as many attacks.
Summary: The comparison here is a lot closer, and probably pretty balanced. Which, if I were to go by previous plan of shooting for somewhere inbetween generic and special paladins, probably still indicates that Gigas growth come out stronger than where I want them to be.
So, for anyone who actually retained interest long enough to make it through this whole monologue, what are your thoughts on the current state of small vs. large characters?
Small Characters vs. Large Characters
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#2
18 June 2015 - 11:06 AM
I've found small characters to be just as good or better to this point, but that is only because of the enemy's tactics taking it easy on us and spreading the damage around. Once they start using more harsh tactics I'm guessing the large characters will pull ahead by a lot. I'd be thinking more of buffing small defenses as opposed to nerfing large characters. If a small offense nerf was needed for the small characters to balance it out, so be it. Knights especially I see as a class that can have high defenses but little offense. Maybe they could do more damage the more wounded they become if something like that is even possible to implement.
#3
18 June 2015 - 11:42 PM
That was a really interesting read, but I doubt I know the game well enough to chime in. I do love large characters though, so I'm cool with them being awesome.
#4
19 June 2015 - 08:32 AM
Well, turns out there was a bug that I created since starting on stage 5 that was swaying my field tests. It doesn't affect any of the theorizing I laid out in the original post, but it does affect my field tests and my impression of how the differences in stats work out around lv 5. For good measure, I combed through the rest of combat's code to make sure there weren't any other bugs, and now I'm going to field test some more.
Yeah, harsher melee tactics would take a much heavier toll on small units than on large ones. I don't really intend to ever make melee tactics all that harsh, but they could become a bit harsher than they are now, which would be a factor. For the reasons I stated in my opening paragraph, large units may not need any nerfing in the early game after all, but their evolution over the course of the game still raises some concerns. Their stat growth may need to wait until their 3rd tier to jump up instead of their 2nd. Or the final tier of small units may need to receive their own stat growth bonuses.
You might be an even bigger nerd than me if you thought that was interesting~
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I've found small characters to be just as good or better to this point, but that is only because of the enemy's tactics taking it easy on us and spreading the damage around.
Yeah, harsher melee tactics would take a much heavier toll on small units than on large ones. I don't really intend to ever make melee tactics all that harsh, but they could become a bit harsher than they are now, which would be a factor. For the reasons I stated in my opening paragraph, large units may not need any nerfing in the early game after all, but their evolution over the course of the game still raises some concerns. Their stat growth may need to wait until their 3rd tier to jump up instead of their 2nd. Or the final tier of small units may need to receive their own stat growth bonuses.
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That was a really interesting read
You might be an even bigger nerd than me if you thought that was interesting~
#5
19 June 2015 - 05:30 PM
I always though it might be cool if each squad could have five units regardless, but only one could be large. Kinda like the team pet. I couldn't guess the effects it would have on balance though. The inspiration came from Tactics Ogre, where you could have 10 characters and 2 could be large.
#6
19 June 2015 - 05:49 PM
I know that the game does not inherently support having a large monster + 4 small units, from a graphical standpoint.
#7
20 June 2015 - 03:17 AM
Yeah, I didn't seriously expect it to be possible. It just seemed like a fun idea. Please keep doing what you're doing.
#8
20 June 2015 - 09:13 AM
Regdren, on 20 June 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:
Yeah, I didn't seriously expect it to be possible. It just seemed like a fun idea. Please keep doing what you're doing.
Will do! I've definitely got my motivation back at full steam. I had a lapse there where map movement AI was really making me feel dead inside, but now that I'm back to working on combat mechanics and generally easier programming changes, I'm having fun again.
#9
22 June 2015 - 01:30 AM
I think the Gigas should compare closer to special characters, or special characters should be less special than they usually are. I never really liked how strong most of the special characters were. If Gigantes are strong enough to merit a large chunk of a player's front line, it sounds fine to me. It just sounds like another available style that doesn't overpower any other likely style, It shouldn't have to compare with "Mostly Devils in the Front" or anything.
#10
22 June 2015 - 05:16 AM
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think the Gigas should compare closer to special characters, or special characters should be less special than they usually are.
Special characters are definitely going to be toned down quite a bit in this hack. When the game is harder, stat advantages feel more important. So even if I reduce the "specialness" of special characters, they probably won't feel much weaker than the original game. At least not compared to generics.
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