Insane Difficulty: Garbage Self-Referential, Immature, Inconsistent writing. - Insane Difficulty

Miacis, on 12 March 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

This is pretty much what I feel like as well. I'm not a good critic, though, so you put it much better than I could ever have.

Although I won't even try to pretend certain attempts at humor aren't pretty weak, I think you're attributing them more weight than they have.

I like what Miacis wrote.

Augestein, on 12 March 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

I hear what you say, but the fault lies not in references being what they are, but on how they are used. Calling two mooks Biggs and Wedge is about the same process as naming all the Doma knights after colors. One is a reference, but both follow the same process and achieve the same effect.

The issue lies more in making a joke, where the punchline consists entirely in there being a reference. This is a triple-edged sword...halberd-thing for your joke, because it will be incoherent to someone who doesn't know it, and grating to one who's heard it more than enough.
If you want successful referential humor, you have to succeed that balancing act. The reference must be known to your public, but not overly used. And like all jokes, must fit the situation to a T and add to it. If you can't reach that delicate balance... then that reference had better be in a spot where it won't get in the way (of gameplay information, of narrative, of tone). However, with just how many of them there are in this mod, that discretion is simply impossible to achieve.

I harped for probably too long in the previous thread about the "It's super effective!" Pokémon system message, but consider how many people today would smile at the reference? Consider how many will glance confusingly at Cyan's latin "Vae victis!", and how many who do know common latin expressions will see the incoherence of him using a phrase completely irrelevant to his situation.

Also, yeah, that FF6 GBA "joke" is pretty bad. I suppose even if you didn't get that reference, it could be interpreted as a KKK joke (they're so fanatical they're trying not to look like the Kult of KefKa, so they're rebranding?) but even that's really pushing it.

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And I do agree that it makes it harder to see the solid script alterations that were made! But I will maintain that if it weren't for the more grating changes, the rest of the script would shine through a lot better. You can have the best band in the world performing an Iron Maiden cover better than the original, but if the drummer is drunk or the sound engineer screwed up the audio, none of that talent will become apparent.
Is it the public's fault, for being overly-nostalgic of the original? No, because even if they weren't, they'd still rather poorly receive that cover as a whole, amazing bassist or not.

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It's very self-aware in a light-hearted kinda way. Most of X-ATM's antics are great examples too.

PS: I did not think this would be so appreciated. Thanks, folks.

SirBlackMage, on 12 March 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Miacis, on 12 March 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

Goddamn.

Why did the developers not just replace the "clean" version with a "vanilla" version that intends to be as close to vanilla as possible and actually fit in with the events and themes of the game? Given the developer's admittance of the subjectivity involved (although inconsistent, tone-deaf, immature, fourth wall-breaking writing is exactly that, whether one likes it or not), and also that FF6 does have a reputation for a moderately good (as far as JRPGs go) story, wouldn't it have been best to take initiative and provide the option to players? To commit to this would avoid upsetting further players in the future when there is no need to. Additionally, I'm assuming it's easy to implement, as in the vanilla script is easily accessible and can be implemented as an optional patch in very little time at all.

The readme was also misleading:

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This implied that BNW doesn't enter hyperbolic butchery territory when in fact, it does. I was expecting a rare "bastard" or something at a pivotal plot moment where it'd arguably fit. The script is barely mentioned in the readme at all, and the "had the developers not been on crack", "definitive version of FF6" type comments led me to believe it would be something subtle and fitting, but now guess who I think had been hitting the pipe when they wrote the script and/or those comments?

Don't hold my anger against me. I found the mod offensive, felt like it wasted two hours of my time, felt that it was a wasted opportunity for something potentially great and also shat on something I have emotional ties to.
Is it a good mod? Perhaps to some. But definitive, how can that even be argued given the inconsistent (etc etc) writing? You on dope, son?

Miacis, on 12 March 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

I get what you're saying, but my response is this: what does it take away if you don't get the reference? I'd be fine if people were upset about vagueness of description weapons versus their effects, but flavor text is something that's meant to add "flavor." It's not meant to ever really be taken seriously.

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Of which yes, I'd agree that is strange. But I'd argue that's more misuse of the phrase than anything else.

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Keeping this that analogy, my point was this: it's more akin to hearing a song that you liked as a kid, and always praising that specific song while not even entirely remembering the melody. Then you come back and you hear a cover of it with what you might consider some questionable instrumentation... Only to realize that the original was bad in the first place. So yeah, I'd blame the false memories or glorification from a simpler mind from a simpler time. Because even as a kid, I couldn't stomach to finish FF6... It took me until I was in college years later to ever finish the game.

That said, I get your point, but I also understand the devs here.

Even if FF6's story and/or writing quality was shit, adding more shit doesn't cancel it all out. It was goofy, charming, emotional, thematically appropriate and consistent. The hell does adding Pokemon references or contemporary British vulgarities add? Shit. Shit that has no place in the pre-existing work. If it were very subtle and infrequent few would complain, but I came for a Final Fantasy experience, preferably an improved one, and that's not what I got regarding the writing. Even if this "Brave New World" wanted to provide something notably different despite the readme stating otherwise, then make sure it's at least slightly good and overall consistent?
I wanted to immerse myself in the world and be a kid again, but the writing kept stabbing me in the fucking eyes. And it was all the mod's writing that was doing this, not vanilla. It's rather easy to distinguish what was vanilla, slightly refined script, or completely new, and I hadn't played this game in approximately ten years.

Augestein, on 12 March 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

Pretty simple. If the reference is used for "flavor" (Biggs/Wedge, colored knights), nothing is taken away but that lil' bit of flavor. All those names add is that they're like the SW equivalents: your wingmen, and somewhat generic. Still close to what Alfred and Bob would have achieved.
If the reference is used as the punchline to a joke (Cefka fanatics, "relics are comfy and easy to wear"), then... well, you're losing your punchline, so there's no point to your joke anymore. It's going to sound random at best, nonsensical at worst.

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Misuse is how you'll interpret it if you don't get the reference. For those who do get it, it'll be like "oh, he does the battle cry that Kain did in Legacy of Kain" which... I guess originally was a misuse, but for that person who gets the reference, well, seeing the phrase itself is enough to get meaning out of it. Kain used it as a battle cry, Cyan does too.

...
That said, Ex-modder friend, might I suggest cooling off a bit? I understand that FF6 is near and dear to you, but this is still just a romhack.... It improves through discussions, and reading posts with curse words every two lines might actually be more unpleasant that the most innapropriate of Pokémon references. I Herd U Liek the gameplay changes, so maybe try skipping the text...? I'll see myself out

Ex-modder, I'm not the biggest fan of some of the script either, but I agree with Miacis. You need to calm down.

That said, there's been enough comments on this that I wouldn't mind seeing an alternate script mod. Heck, if I was a decent writer or knew the design goal to shoot for, I'd offer to do the back-breaking work myself.

Just trying to get my two hours of intended entertainment back.

...yes, I'm finished. I probably took it too far.

Miacis, on 12 March 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

Heh, no. I'll try searching for a different hack but this has left a bad taste in my mouth for FF6 by association, for the time being. Also I remember the gameplay/battles being a real slog up until Zozo vanilla too. Simple attack -> attack -> fire -> attack type battles. Really simple mindless stuff. So this lack of motivation to start over is not entirely on BNW.
Anyway, I've said my piece, let off my steam, so there's probably no reason to cause further potential upset to the person that put hard work into the script.

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

Again, this is what *you* want, and what you were looking for when you played the mod. This is not necessarily what everybody else wants. The fact that BNW contains references and goofiness does not mean it is bad; it's just not what you want from it. As somebody who has played various versions of this game to death, if a mod mostly uses just the vanilla script with some subtle and consistent changes, I will tune it out. I'll also mention that only about 50% of BTB's humour sticks for me, so I'm not just saying that because I'm in love with every joke in the entire script.

The script is barely mentioned in the Readme at all because the mod is primarily a gameplay mod. It's like coming to a steakhouse and complaining that their vegetarian meals are bland.

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

Didn't say it canceled out. What I'm saying is that there's really not much to defend. It's basically defending a pile of shit that became a mountain of shit in this case. A Pokemon reference? Okay, it's a reference that doesn't alter the story. I'd be fine if you were upset that it doesn't have THIS: "Sword whose attack power is bound to its wielder's HP." Or even better "Sword increases in power at full health" (which considering tech limitations should have been the description in the first place rather than the vague version we had in the SNES version.) but instead, you're angry about aspects that don't specifically cater to your wants and desires. Like literally if I were to make a topic like this, I'd ask something like this

"Hey, I know that these references are fun and all, but can we have descriptions that are a bit more useful so I don't need to consult a FAQ / readme to find out if weapons have special properties?" That's fine. Hell, I had a topic where I basically said "I hate 1.3 in the end game," and no one got upset because I had justifiably explained myself. Heck, I was even told "fix it" within the chapter, and so I did show some of the tweaks that I would have done. Which in the end of the day, is at least semi-productive even if the maker decides that he loathes my idea or not. At the very least it'll get him/her thinking about why they did those things.

Heck, when I was doing my own mod, Advent pointed out some mistakes and errors that he felt that I had done years ago. And you know what? I considered some of them, and I think he was right on some and others? Meh.

If you wanted to immerse yourself in the world and be a kid again, here's the thing: play the original. The original still exists. I hate how they changed Frog's dialogue in the Chrono Trigger on the DS. You know what I do when I want the Frog I remember as a kid? I play that one. It's silly to become upset like this: the original version exists.

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But regardless, it still works as part of the lore. If you don't get the reference, all it makes you think is that people have really lost their minds in the world of ruin. And it still gets that point across; reference or not. Getting the joke is a light chuckle, and not getting the joke harms nothing. That was my point. It's a small joke. It's not a story line entry that requires a reference to understand what the hell just transpired. It'd be different if someone said "what's Kefka's goal?" And someone responded with "oh, he's hoping to do what Ex-Death did." That's a reference that unless you're familiar with FFV, is going to leave your scratching you head thinking? "Who or what is an Ex-Death and what does it do?"

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Which for me I don't remember Kain saying that, but him screaming and then going into the fray still makes it readily apparent that he's screaming a battle cry... Because he goes into battle after he yells it. The key here is that the references are light-hearted regards to things that the devs like/liked. None of the crucial dialogue is replaced in such a way that the original meaning is lost-- like a localization of sorts.

Augestein, on 12 March 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:

Horrible, inaccurate analogy. I ordered a steak. Says in the OP I came for the gameplay. The steak was (seemingly) fine, but happens to come with world-famous chips and side veg, which were nasty because the manager of this particular joint thought he'd mess with it by adding his homemade "special sauce".

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Because we don't want to. It's a lot of work and I'm not really interested in the payoff. If anyone wants to vanilla-ize BNW's script, they are more than free to the project.

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

Horrible inaccurate quoting. I didn't say that. And furthermore, going with your analogy... Okay, so tell the manager you don't like the special sauce and don't eat the veggies. Don't call the chefs, the restaurant and the whole neighborhood garbage.

@Augestein: That's... an interesting take on what localization is? Not sure how anybody could be accomplishing proper FF6 localization without getting in contact with the original creative team, anyways.

There are other criteria to judge the writing than "does it alter the story?". In any piece of writing, spelling mistakes, minor lore mistakes, poor syntax, bad jokes and straight-up nonsense NPC talk do not alter the story, but they all break the immersion in their own unique way. We're talking about a 40~50 hours long game that's heavy on text (by video game standards anyways...) and world-building. And since our BNW duo extraordinaire went to great lengths to make some characters more interesting and believable, I do think that pulling people into this cool new world was a part of the idea. Heck, even the gameplay achieves that goal, by differentiating characters and making them even more unique.

Try to understand then that someone getting pulled into dat BNW FF6 RPG groove might find it quite disrupting when Slim Jims are being thrown around, NPCs talk about Pokemon, and others talk about weird things you don't understand because the joke is that it's a reference. None of these are egregious errors in and of themselves (and none "directly affect the story"), but they all slowly pile onto a mille-feuilles of immersion-breaking that might or might not push people away. Even people who came into this mod expecting it to be Gameplay First. Heck, I wouldn't be talking into so much detail about it if it didn't affect me in some way.

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Are you saying that people wanting to write Kefka with a different letter have lost their minds...?

edit:

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Actually, looking back at the UnlockMe notes.... they kinda did? Characterization took some pretty big "localization-like" liberties in some specific cases (not least of which, Mog). Sure, those changes were good, but parts of the original game's meanings were indeed lost. For good or worst, mostly good/neutral, but still.

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

Fair enough, I forgot that you came for the gameplay because you haven't mentioned the gameplay at all.

Your analogy doesn't really work either because the script is barely advertised (nobody is claiming it to be "world famous"), and BTB was perfectly clear about the "special sauce" that he added.

Augustein :P, on 12 March 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yes, everybody knows Cefca is the one true version.

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The special sauce was poured all over the chips without my asking, silly. I can only attempt to eat the steak and, naturally, I'm not happy about it. I'm satisfied I've got my time refund via a good old fashioned bashing and bitching, and I will simply check out another steakhouse next time. Still got the awful taste in my mouth and a lack of motivation to start over but what is done is done, no hard feelings.

It shouldn't be difficult to comprehend that I would like more than just gameplay in a story-driven game. A wholesome meal. The full package. Furthermore if something is overly jarring and grating, and generally wildly out of place it negatively impacts the experience as a whole. Said whole being what's important, even if gameplay can trump all. You don't play a Final Fantasy game with the music muted. You don't skip it's story. And you don't not pay attention to it's systems and mechanics, even if attack spam often did the job in the later games. If you do, you're not playing the game as intended/getting the most you potentially can out of it.

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I meant that regarding the original game script (and Woolsey's translation).
The game is part of a popular mainstream RPG series, was sold in multiple regions, and most gamers do know it's name. The writing while hardly amazing is partly why it is popular and a fan favorite. BTB, the "manager" of this particular "joint/branch", modified the world famous "ingredients" in this particular instance, making them worse while proudly mocking the original translator and devs.

That said, again, clearly there's a lot you people find to love in BNW/BTB's designs which may very well be legitimate, and I'm not "bashing the whole neighborhood". It's just the writing, which is undeniably [insert previous criticism].

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

When I'm Veldt grinding, I Mute the music and play some Touhou music instead. The Veldt song gets really grating after a while.

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

If I'm doing a challenge run or playing a mod that has not altered the story, I will fast-forward through every cutscene with turbo A and 30x fast-forward.

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

That's true, but I've seen plenty of other people just spam an attack if it works.

Ex-modder, on 12 March 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

If I avoid an aspect of the game, I'm getting everything I'm aiming for out of that playthrough (if I'm not getting anything, I won't play at all). In return, I'm spending less time on that playthrough. Often I'm hoping for a package deal, but I'm fine with ignoring one area if the other areas are good enough to make up for it.

Yeah, well, excluding those 2% of players that play the games to death to the point that the individual elements lose impact. Those are definitely the outliers. Myself it's been a long time, so when I do play it properly I will play it to its fullest and I will get more out of a single playthrough than you. Some events and such are blurry in memory and I will get to rediscover them. Meanwhile if you were to play the game I worked on, you'd get more out of it than me, as I know it like the back of my hand.

FF6 is a very memorable game though. Still remember far more than I'd prefer to.