Insane Difficulty: Solo Thief Challenge (Thief SSCC) - Insane Difficulty

The FAQ write-up is mistaken, yes, and I did figure that out last weekend when I did some test runs to figure out strats.

The mistake sqpat made was that you have to start the air-punching when you first move to that back corner by the door.

Yep, you got it. That is when I started punching. I came so close to winning. Wiegraf critted me with his Earth Slash. I crit Velius for 402, with one of my punches, and dodged his punch. I got hit with a Giga Flare that would not have killed me if I was not hurt more than 60 by Wiegraf (plus the counter, but you can still win even if you are countered) Oh well. I probably would not have dodged the second punch.

Vincent, go ahead and add me on skype: bastardpoetry

I'll be logged in around 1pm (your time), which is an hour from now if I'm not mistaken. I usually keep my Skype status "invisible" because I don't like getting pestered by certain lurkers there. So just put yourself in available and I'll call you when everything's set up to record.

This is another viable strategy. I have pulled some of it off multiple times. It mainly relies on you dodging two/three punches in a row, and Velius seems to be much less likely to cast a summon. He's punched me almost every time. I have never dodged the second punch.

Thief Hat
Power Sleeve
Sprint Shoes

The Air Knife has superior damage with this setup. I think it does 142 damage to good compat. Fists do 104. I don't have it either, and I decided to beat Yardow at level 50. I really don't want to do the fight again, but you know...it would be a hell of as lot easier to do specifically this strategy, which I would say has the greatest odds of success. You don't need a crit!

Battle begins

4 left ,2 down, wait

6 right, punch

1 left, punch

2 right, 4 up, punch.

6 up, wait

Wiegraf's back is completely exposed. You punch him twice. Hopefully you come out damage free. You will get another shot at his back, which sadly still doesn't kill him and thus you must avoid another counter. I've won this part plenty of times. You just need to live. A Lightning Stab and 1 counter is fine. He is in critical now and Velius comes. If by some chance you crit him and it kills him before you take damage, you will die. You need to be hit by 120 at least.

Run up to the demon furthest to the left. He is the second demon to act. Charm him. Next turn, go in between the 6 speed demon and the one you charmed so only your front is exposed. Charm the demon furthest to the right from here. Velius will now hopefully punch you and miss. The demons you charmed will do random things. Sometimes they Dark Holy each other, sometimes they Giga Flare Velius and the other 2 demons. Now it's your turn. The Sprint shoes allow this, and can't be done without 13 speed. You go a third time before the 6 speed demon and charm him. It may be a good idea to just kill him if you can, especially if the other demon is good compat. You have to run your ass to the back of the room. One of the demons will probably be dead now. One or two will still be charmed. When Velius starts running towards you, position yourself to be punched.

That's where I died. From there I would punch Velius, and try to get the last demon to exhaust all of his mp on Dark Holy to Velius. Depending on compat, this could really hurt him. Velius should keep punching you if a non direct summon won't reach you in time. Be very careful.

This is the damage Velius will usually receive

1 Giga Flare (85 average)

2 Dark Holy and possibly anoher Giga Flare The best Dark Holy you will see on Velius is probably 200 something

3 punches from you (104)

If you dare test the luck of a third ,goat punch, go for it and punch him again Otherwise you should be able to get 2 Dark Holies in if the demon is re charmed. When you can't keep away from Velius any longer, go for a second, third, and maybe 4th punch. The third and fourth punch are pretty much your last stand. if you dodge a third punch, you can get 4th in. If you can't avoid a punch at all, try to midcharge him

The damage altogether

Giga Flares-85 85

Punches- 104 104 104 (another 104 if you can dodge a third punch) 160 is the midcharge damage.

200 200 Dark Holy (really varies) It could do even more

If you land a 4th punch, that's 986. If the initial Giga Flare and the second one do something like 110, you'd be at 936 without a 4th punch. With a 4th punch, he's dead. If you have an Air Knife, the 142 damage will make the odds much greater.

It's up to you if you want to try this, but I think it is more fun than trying for crits. I'd say the odds of this working out are just a little bit better. I hope this helped.
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EDIT: I actually went back and got an Air Knife. It does 150 damage with Thief Hat/Power Sleeve/Sprint Shoes.

This means you only need 3 hits, which requires only two 25% dodges

3 hits for 450 (if you can plan the third hit to be a midcharge, this damage is 520)

2 Dark Holies for around 400

Just the Initial Giga Flare is enough if it does around 110. He will likely be hit with 2.

Ok...I have said quite a lot in this topic, and you might have already won. If I beat Velius doing that, I'll say so. That's it.

I'm starting to think that you and I should get together on Skype so we can discuss the intricate little details of various strategies.

That'd be cool. I don't have any way to talk with my computer, but I'd be glad to type up a storm. I never used Skype before, but it says you can talk through instant messaging, so I'd do that.

In that case, it would be easier to hold off such discussion until after you've seen all of the videos I (will eventually) upload. All of the things I've tried, and all of my observations, would have been significantly easier to explain with voice chat--I just don't have the time to type all of it out.. (Plus, I sort of hate chatting with IM).

The 2 hours I recorded with Vincent are particularly enlightening, and I think you'll get a lot out of them. I may upload them under the title: "In-Depth Analysis of the Mechanics and AI Behaviors of FFT." We really scrutinized every tiny detail of the Velius fight--or at least all of the strats I've tried so far.

I have one more video at Riovanes' Gate to upload today, and then I'll start uploading my Velius vids tomorrow. I'll likely upload 2-3 at a time, to get everyone on the same page by Thursday.

I'll check them out. I honestly need a break from the fight. I was front-punched probably about 30 times today. You know how many Ramza dodged? NONE! Seriously, Wiegraf blocked me from the side I am not exaggerating- 11 attacks right after the other. You're telling me I can't dodge one out of 30 punches with similar odds to hit? it is impossible in my state of anger to win. To win, I must take a break and be calm. Maybe show my friend a few rounds since I get very lucky when someone watches.

The last strategy I found is pretty cool, but I just never had much of a chance to try it when Wiegraf blocked 11 times in a row.

Pretty much, you beat Wiegraf unharmed with a Feather Mantle, you run to the back of the right wall (1 panel before the last 6 spaces from Ramza's starting point), wait, and Velius starts heading down. Then you front shot him. You then are hit with 2 Giga Flares, which also hit Velius, and a Dark Holy. It's very possible to survive, but the Dark Holy can only do around 180 maximum. Otherwise you are dead. Then you get to hit Velius again, and run back to the 3 height panel. If you turn your back, he seems to punch more often. The game just won't give me a single dodge. If you can dodge that hit, and then two more. I am almost certain you would win. The demons are so far away. I guess the Feather Mantle is just worthless. It never ever dodges against him.

See if you can get that to work. With an Air Knife, here's how it should go.

130 initial hit
2 Giga Flares- around 170
6 more hits will leave him with around 950 damage.

That is a lot of dodging, Once you have done 800, try to get a midcharge for exactly 200. I think this has the greatest odds by far to win. The only issue is that Ramza tends to take around 200 from Dark Holy. I've taken 101 before from a Bad compat demon. With as much time as you are given here since the demons are so far behind, getting a crit is pretty likely out of 7 hits.

That.. seems to me like it would have slightly lower odds of success than the strat I've been doing. 7 hits, one crit and dodging 3 goat punches, VS 7 hits (or 6 w/ 1 crit), dodging 2 goat punches and landing 2 charms at crucial moments. Someone wanna do the maths?

Did you get an Air Knife? We both didn't think it would help much. It is handy if you do 130 or above. Wiegraf only needs 260 hp lost to run. Also, the other Chapter 3 battles were much easier when I had to do them again. I degenerated and only had to do Juice Woods again. 110 per knife is so much better than 88 per punch.

I have tried to beat Wiegraf with a Black Costume and Jade Armlet while not getting hit. You need a crit. I realized it's not worth it. You may or may not be able to survive Cyclops, and while confused, Ramza is very likely to do something very stupid, such as steal a helmet from a demon, and get countered.

Something i really don't understand is why with an Air Knife, making Wiegraf run at the end of your double turn results in you only getting 1 turn at the start of Velius, as opposed to killing him with your fists. You get 2. I never knew killing him mattered.

I never thought I'd hate a fight more than Solo Archer Elmdor. Dycedarg is looking better, and I gave up trying to win that. it really isn't that bad, I just don't want to play that anymore.

Edit: Yeah I am trying again. I got a crit for 270 with an initial 130 attack. I thought crits couldn't do over double damage?

That's always been how it works. Probably has something to do with Velius inheriting Wiegraf's CT, so if he's dead, 0. At least that's my theory.
There's no reason for Jade Armlet, Velius' AI prioritizes Seal in a very, very strange manner. He'll basically never use it if he can hit you with ANYTHING else, of course if you're Lossed, that changes. I doubt Black Costume+Thief would allow you to survive a Clops, possibly a Titan, but this would mean you'd have to move towards Velius to hit him if we assume you move back after the second opening punch. You'd eat a Gigaflare and die right after wards. As far as strategies go, the 7 punch is probably the best.

I really need to catch up with all the progress in this one, you've progressed quite far since I last had a lot of time to watch several of these in a row.

I hope you can get some Velius attempts up before Thursday. I'd like to see some of what you've tried up 'til now so I'm not walking in blind

Just to double check, we agreed on Thursday night, aka Friday morning, right? Not Wednesday night aka Thursday morning...

Correct.

I -should- have plenty of Velius vids up before then. But I've tried to upload the last of the Riovanes' Gate vids about seven times today, and it keeps messing up. The video isn't damaged or anything; it's just the youtube upload process.

I'll try to upload both of the Kaffe Myers vids tomorrow, the 30 minute solo vid tomorrow night and both of the Vincent vids Thursday morning.

I think you will enjoy this. http://browse.devian...velius#/d15lgwo

( •_•) Looks like someone's...
( •_•)>⌐■-■ ...waiting in place.
(⌐■_■) YEAAAAAHHHHHH!

Okay, sweet. Just wanted to double check so I can plan the day accordingly. Need to make sure my house mates know I'm going to be up talking to myself at 3am I'll also need to install Skype on the PC downstairs.

Is it just me, or does Velius look like he's wearing the exoskeletons from Ghost in the Shell?

I have seen some pretty cool events unfold in this battle, though when it came down to dodging a punch, I never have when I needed to.

One thing that can happen that is amazing. Go to the bottom of the room as far as you can on your first turn during Velius. You have to be on the lower left angle of that square shaped move radius at the bottom of the room. Ramza will be looking straight at the left torch. Velius steps in front of the torch, and will Loss you. I have not been able to replicate it, but when confused, if Ramza moves to the other panel behind the torch and tries to charm Velius( which obviously will fail, it's just the positioning), all 3 demons will Giga Flare Velius to reach you. The problem is Ramza can charm Velius from a number of spots.

I don't think I will be able to win this fight. I have only come reasonably close twice out of I am guessing probably over 100 resets. I guess the only good thing I have gotten out of this is helping you( not sure if I did), and learning that there's more ways than you'd think to beat Velius with other classes if you have range. Any class besides calculator has it so much better against Velius.

Okay, I have some time to write up a -bit- of what I've discovered, since it seems like it would be easier for you if you understood where my mind is in all of this. I don't mean to make you feel like I'm ignoring your advice; my hope is that this post will help explain the mindset with which I've approached the strats you've provided.

You've helped in the sense that you've provided alternative strategies that I wouldn't have considered. However, the effort it would take to get an Air Knife just isn't something I'm willing to do. And I'm going to test a couple of new things you've provided tonight at work, since I probably won't do any recordings until tomorrow night w/ Stann. So this doesn't apply to everything you've offered me, of course. I still have to run some figures.

In the commentary I did with Vincent, I show a video that I had put together of what a winning run would look like, using save-states and editing. This was done "unofficially," of course, because I wouldn't dare try to pass something like that off as legit. But it was something I did during my off-camera tests, to understand all of the possibilities and their respective odds for success. Some strats have 0.0025% odds, like the standard punch, crit punch, mid-charge crit punch (which I have proven IS possible, using these save-state tests, but I also determined that I'm not willing to do it; you can kinda see the point of these tests). The strategy I am currently using, and the save-state test video I showed Vincent and my viewers, is one that has slightly over 1% odds of success, and is -very- easy to replicate.

The thing is: there are some strats that have slightly better odds than the one I'm using, and some of the ones that you've given me fall into that category as well, but the opening maneuvers against Wiegraf take 2-3 times longer. When I look at these things, I take time into account. Lower odds of success, with attempts that are 2-3 times faster, are more appealing in the long run.

The brilliant thing about the 1% strat I'm using: When I hit Wiegraf, and he counters--that's the IDEAL situation! The perfect amount of damage to take. If I hit Wiegraf and he doesn't counter, or he counters and I dodge, then I can wait in place on the double turn and allow him to lightning stab me before I take him out--either way, I've taken approximately the right amount of damage for encouraging the goat-punches I need, and surviving the perfectly timed Archaic spells. Resets w/ Wiegraf only happen if I miss 2 punches--I actually have three shots at him. For Velius, this strat relies on dodging only TWO goat-punches; at which point, the Dark Holy charges start happening right before Velius gets his turns, so he typically ignores me while I charm demons to cancel killing spells. And there is a certain point, during all of that, where I finally get chances to take Velius out.

I still reset a lot, but something like 95% of those resets occur w/ Velius, and not w/ Wiegraf. When you consider that 1 out of 100 attempts, statistically, should result in a winning run, it's better to no longer worry about some of those percentage hurdles occurring during the "easy" part of the fight.

I hope this helps explain why I'm not in a rush to degen, grab an Air Knife, fight through the Gate again, etc. The time I spend doing that, just to slightly improve the odds (which I haven't calculated yet, but it seems to be -very- close to the odds I'm already facing, so.. negligible, I think), just seems to me like time I could spend re-rolling that 1 in 100 chance a couple hundred times--since that is, of course, realism trumping statistics.

@Cocomunga
Loss Strat won't work for Thief. Generally you need either Worst or Bad compat for Loss to work on Velius.
For it to maybe work, you'd need to hit both punches, connect, and not get countered. That alone whittles it down to a 11% chance, you'd also of course need to wear a Jade Armlet and probably Thief+Black Costume. Even then I'm quite sure Velius' Clops will OHKO you since it does 360 something at good compat from what I remember.
And nah, Velius is disgustingly hard as Thief, but he's ridiculously hard as Knight and Samurai. Anytime you rely on close to max damage crits is way worse. Thankfully, Thief only needs to dodge, and has the advantage of doing side-shots on Wiegraf.