Insane Difficulty: Who's Your MVP? - Insane Difficulty

Thanks for the explanation about Valiant Edge, it's hard to detect the damage bonus at level 9, and I rarely conventionally attack anyway. Someone else in this thread was describing a setup that involves keeping Locke at low health constantly and in the back row to maximize its punch, which seems extremely cumbersome.

I'm honestly not sure what the point of playing the game at a high level is, it's too easy. Anyone who has not given this game a low-level run should definitely try it, it's a fantastic playthrough.

For MVP, I picked Locke, as he is the fastest. He is ridiculously faster than anyone else. For a second I'd definitely pick Celes. Runic and Reraise are game-changers and I relied on them in every battle.

A high level game is still fun because you won't be spamming HFB's or relying on Repo Man like in a LLG (unless you didn't do either and every endgame battle took an hour), so it's fun as long as you spend the time balancing offense and defense. A LLG may have more strategically intensive fights, but it misses out on the fun of building your characters stats, and using the majority of the available offensive options (most of which are useful in a straight playthrough). You also don't get the chance to fight random encounters during a dungeon, so you don't have to think about resource management. Some players (like, probably most) would also probably prefer to play through leisurely rather than retrying several battles many times.

Oh, no, this sounds like an essay's introductory paragraph...

I'll agree that those who haven't tried a LLG of this game should do it if that's what floats their boat, but only after a normal playthrough, whether they find it easy or not.

However, at the end of the day, it comes down to whatever somebody wants to do themselves. But IMHO there is a lot of fun to be had at normal levels that a LLG by itself misses out on.

+1

Could not have worded that better myself.

Hell, you think a LLG is bad, Abbodon was talking about trying a CES run.

That shit would be insane.

Just for fun, I'll list why I think LLG is funner:

1) this game came out in 1994, we've all played it through the normal way a million times.
2) it's really amazing that LLG is even possible.
3) you get to build up the characters with the best possible espers when you choose to, at the end.
4) HFBs are fun and the random element makes it interesting.
5) LLG forces you to think much harder about the equipment.
6) this is the best game ever made and I don't want to rush it, I want to stretch it as far as possible.
7) resource management is pretty easy since you can just cheat and buy 99 of everything, I don't consider it dishonorable to save yourself hours of grinding for GP. Anyway, there are always save points and tents so I don't see resource management as a big thing in the normal game either.
8) try LLG first, leisurely playthrough later. there's always plenty of time for a leisurely playthrough.
9) greater excitement when there's actually a chance of legitimately dying
10) only a few battles are so difficult that you need to do them many times, since you pick up the strategy over time and begin to know what you're doing.

FFVI is a great game despite the fact that it's really hard to die. It becomes an even greater game when you actually can die in it. That's the key thing for me.

I admit that missing out on the random battles is a bummer. I wish there were a way to toggle exp gains.

Repo Man is good whether or not you're in a LLG.

There definitely is a lot of fun at normal levels, but everyone does that. That's a given. What most people miss out on is the unique experience and challenge of a LLG.

Anyone experienced in this game knows that LLG is uber-legit and hardcore, I think maybe some people overestimate how difficult it is and avoid it for that reason. It's not that hard, really... (Just kidding, it's extremely hard.)

Yes, CES would be fun and it must be possible.

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

This is the only point I'd disagree with. No sense in starting off on hard mode and then going to easy mode later.

(That said, one of my distant future plans is to add a degree of leveling to the endgame bosses to challenge players who grind too much).

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Just CES. CES LLG is most likely impossible.

BTB, on 15 November 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Yeah, I didn't even think that through before I mentioned it... it's definitely impossible. The last boss is impossible in a LLG without Repo Man.

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Not this guy. I've never beaten this game, in large part because I was six years old when it came out and never touched it till a few months ago.

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Definitely top-tier, but "best game ever made" is an ambitious title, and I can tell you right now I've played games that beat FF6 in certain areas. Games of the same era? No. But to call anything the "best game ever made" is just silly.

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

It is more (of a big thing) than you might think, because some people don't like grinding for GP.

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Disagree with this for the same reasons as BTB.

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

If this is what you think you need to play the main game through normally. You have a chance of legitimately dying quite a bit.

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

This is not FF6. FF6 and BNW to me are so vastly different that you can't even call them the same game anymore, much in the same way that FFT 1.3 and Vanilla are not the same game. Everything has been tuned to the point where whatever the original was is irrelevant, which is a good thing.

Caracalla, on 15 November 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

LLGs, on a whole, are punishing, very much so. I don't do them most of the time simply because I tend to have a short attention span, and I like to have fun when I play. Character development is a big thing for me, and in an LLG that is nonexistent. That isn't to say it's not fun for some people, but talking about it as if it were the end all be all is, in my opinion, misguided.

Based on how flat out wrong some of these points are, I'd actually contend that it doesn't even look like you've played BNW normally. You really should. It's not "spam attack to win" anymore.

I haven't played BNW normally yet, that's true. I'm just assuming it's easy based on vanilla. I'll play it through normally next.

Caracalla, on 16 November 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

That's an incorrect assumption. A lot of people go into FFT 1.3 with their Vanilla habits and expectations and get absolutely destroyed as a result. That said, BNW isn't exactly a difficulty hack (for the first half of the game, anyway) but it's still significantly harder than Vanilla for a number of reasons.

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No, this game came out in 2013, and I've only beaten it twice.

Final Fantasy VI, on the other hand, did come out in 1994.

Personally, I tend to treat them as very separate things.

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I may have used the codes in the LLG because they saved a lot of time that I would have been forced to spend grinding otherwise, but in a regular game, part of the challenge is to survive with as little time specifically spent grinding as possible (at least that's how I play it, I make an exception to gather Rages). This means that while at a higher level, you will usually be less well prepared equipment-wise for many bosses.

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That doesn't mean one should miss out on the experience of playing at normal levels. Just because many others had that experience doesn't mean that you shouldn't have it.

I don't disagree that LLG's are fun, and I would encourage people to try them, but I do disagree that a normal game isn't fun, and that people should skip straight to the LLG.

I really like this guy, and not just for his videos. Lockirby nailed it right on the head.

Before I started playing hacks of games, I used to play all kinds of self imposed challenges. For instance, with FF7, which I played probably 10-15 times "normally" as a kid, I started doing many different runs with materia restrictions. For example:

Magic only
Command only
Enemy skill only
Summon only (never quite finished that one)

etc. Adding challenges was a good way to restore some of the fun to the game.

I've never had any interest in LLG, however. While the boss fights might be the most fun part of a game like this, they still are only 5-10% of the game, and the idea of running from all the random encounters never appealed to me.

Now, however, I don't have quite so much time for these kinds of challenges, and when I go back to play an old RPG I usually haven't played it in a few years. When I do play the games, I'm usually looking for something that will elicit some of the original nostalgia. I also usually don't remember all the secrets and all the broken tricks any more, so more hardcore challenges would require spending time with walkthroughs and such planning rather than just playing the game.

Difficulty hacks are great for this, because I can play the game "normally" and still have a reasonable challenge. Will every boss kill me? No. But at least a few of them will probably wipe me once or twice.

I agree, Obob. Especially with BNW, I can jump in head first with what I remember of the original game and enjoy a nice mix of nostalgia and new experiences. It's the best a difficulty mod can offer in my opinion.

I checked on this forum and I am surprised that the concencus seems to be that Relm is a ok (at most) character. In my game, she is a power-house. At lv50, she has 999 mana which is a lot. She is by far the best healer, never running out of mana due to her mp pool and Osmose ability. She can evade/block most of the attack and tank the rest with her fantastic elemental and physical resistance. Her brush can heal half or all the the HP per each attack when she is not casting and her sketch is useful and pretty powerful (for me at the very least).

It is rare that she get hit for more than 500dmg on the big attacks.

All in all, not the front liner for attack, but she doesn't need to be when she can single-handly keep my whole party alive just by breathing.

Nehemos, on 18 December 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Suddenly, Celes.

I cast the lone vote for Edgar. Admittedly, that likely somewhat bespeaks my fondness for the character, as well as my play style, but when considering the entire span of my playthrough, no character had greater utility than Edgar.

His tools were as useful as ever throughout the WoB, and in my opinion he retained much of that versatility throughout the WoR as well. I built him with golem levels early (HP and speed) and switched exclusively to Palidor levels (vigor and speed) once I reached the WoR. With this build I personally did not experience the same purported tradeoff in efficacy between a "tools Edgar" and a "dragoon Edgar" that other posters suggest. This is my take:

• With enhanced speed, Edgar was able to react well to whatever the situation demanded.
• On bosses without an elemental weakness, that often entailed just drilling away or using a consumable at a key time in the battle. Sure, each drill hit is somewhat underwhelming in raw damage output when compared to some of the harder hitters, but endgame speed-based Edgar has elite speed and thusly gets a lot of turns.
• Edgar has the ability to set slow or seizure as opening moves, which is nice.
• Edgar can heal out of battle and can cast float when beneficial.
• On enemies with an elemental weakness, an Edgar equipped with the dragon helm and an elemental spear is god-like. I understand that some of the advantages conferred by greater speed are lost when jumping, but inflicting ~20,000 damage in a single hit against a dragon gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling -- the importance of which should not be understated when assessing MVP potential
• Edgar's survivability is good with just a few HP-based early esper levels, as he has access to HP-boosting spears. Or, if I wish to use him in a more tools-based capacity, I favor giving him a sword (Zantetsuken when available) and another HP-boosting piece of equipment -- likely the Red Jacket later on.
• When jumping, there was not much input lag on my part, as I could just hold my hand on the <a> button when Edgar's turn was coming up to quickly select his "jump" command, thus maximizing his speed bonus.

There are likely some other points in his favor I have forgotten to mention, but I really found Edgar to be a versatile character in this mod. I even felt his more "early-game" tools retained a decent amount of usefulness later on.

It is a testament to the brilliance of this mod that there are so many different responses to this survey. You can succeed with a variety of play styles and team compositions, a fact which naturally yields a variety of responses to the "MVP" question. GREAT mod.

Well, you should be especially glad to hear that Edgar is getting two new tools in the next update, then.

Terra was my easy MVP, with her easily hitting 9999 on late bosses with Morph and being a versatile healer/caster early game. Relm and Setzer pull up in a tie for second, with Relm being a great healer and Flare spammer, with weaker multitarget and mpre fragility; and Setzer with his amazing heals and great Slots when I pumped up his Mag. Sabin rounded out the group as HP/MP battery, keeping my battles flowing smoothly.

Celes, Locke, and Cyan come after that. I didn't train Celes fully, but my main problem with her was single target damage: Terra was way ahead of her with Ultima, and the MP gain from Runic wasn't useful in the same party as Sabin. Locke I wish had a way to raise Mag, but x-cast Life 2 and Cure 3 was extremely helpful and made him a great spot utility. Cyan hit like a truck, and my only qualm was that I didn't train him soon enough.

Never touched Strago, Umaro, Shadow, Gogo, Edgar, or Mog. I firmly believe in the opposite of using characters evenly, and got through Kefka's tower with the 7 characters above, with Terra soloing, another reason I vote for her as MVP.

The one character I call out for frustrating me was Gau. I made the mistake of not training his stamina, assuming that his non-stamina based rages would be sufficient. However, with no esper bonuses to any relevant stats until I got Fenrir (the very last Magicite I found), he became profoundly underpowered offensively and defensively for all of WoR. He helped slightly with random encounters, but did little for bosses. Tragic, for a character that I love and that helped me beat IAF.

My one wish that won't be granted is that Gau have Siren instead of Edgar, who as of right now can't really be built around magic, whereas Gau loves both magic and speed. Though with the new tools for Edgar, that will change.

EDIT: Or if Stray was Magic and Stamina, which would give Sabin a way to improve his magic attacks.

This post has been edited by Think0028: 23 December 2013 - 01:31 PM

I got a Bone Club and got Gau some stamina, I retract my complaints. Much better!