Insane Difficulty: Character Stat/Skill Changes - Insane Difficulty

Thought this would make a good topic in light of some of the recent discussion going on. Toss in any suggestions you might have which are hopefully within the boundaries of what Advent and/or Emitai can change.

I'll start here...

Ryu

- Can't really think of a whole lot here besides MAYBE his spells. I kinda like the idea of having the choice between saving allies with a well timed heal spell or going full out offensive with Accession.

Rei

- Maybe a very slightly higher hp & defense score? Or maybe a little more int so he could make use of his electric based spells a bit more. Don't know why, but I don't want to see him lose Jolt/Lightning/Mjollnir. Seems to suit his character well.

Nina

- Higher hp & defense. Part of her issue is that she's so frail that she's basically Ivan from Fallen Star, if not worse off. It doesn't help that any master you'd think to put her under to boost her strong stats (ap/intelligence) likely penalizes her hp, defense, or both. I'm not saying she should become the tankiest member of the group, but she really needs a defensive boost for me to ever consider using her (Yes, I do think she's the worst character in the game by far in vanilla, hush xD).

As for spells? It'd be a cool idea if she took more of a role she had in BoF1...attack spells yes, but with some healing magic on the side for emergencies.

Momo

- Accuracy boost, though I don't know how this would work. She has a hard time hitting enemies consistently without having an Artemis' Cap or becoming a pupil of D'lonzo. Not sure what else she could use.

Garr

- Higher base ap. He doesn't get much during his level ups and 2/3rds of his skills are magic based and, well, Garr's not exactly someone geared for magic casting. Maybe elemental strikes would suit him more? Hit the weakness of an enemy, do huge damage!

Peco

- No idea here, heh. Starting at lv1 makes him so flexible for how one wants to build him up.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Good call. I was actually going to be making one of these before too long.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

That's part of the idea.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Rei is probably the only character whose abilities I looked at and was almost entirely content with. I think he's in a good spot, but I won't say for sure if he's gonna be untouched or not at this point.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

I have actually referred to her as the "Ivan of Dragon Trial," and as such she will be getting a rather large HP/defensive buff, in part to offset the penalties of apprenticing under Emitai and Deis.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

That's actually what made me initially take a look at her in contrast to Momo ability-wise.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Probably give either Nina or Momo different types of statii/debuffing abilities, or different types of buffing abilities. For example, keep Momo with the AoE buffs and statii, give Nina single-target buffs and heals, and leave her with her stat debuffs.

Anima Zero, on 04 October 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Garr's gonna be getting something a bit similar to Garet's Phoenix-whatever psynergy in FS/RS, only I'm not sure if it'll be an AoE revive. Magic will be viable on him, albeit less so (in the offensive department) but he will probably see an AP buff.

I feel like Ryu is well designed already. He might need nerfs to Accession, BUT it's pretty cool that he's an awesome healing / reviving character yet you sacrifice all of that when you go Accession.

Archael, on 04 October 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Aye. As I said I can't do anything about those buffs at present, so I'll just be designing bosses with the idea in mind that the player is going to be using Accession at some point.

Yes, Advent. Keep satisfying me with your answers...so good.

I don't feel Nina is in a bad place by default. Tend to use her a lot, actually (and she doesn't really die all that much).
But i can accept that in a difficulty mod she might become a liability. That depends on what the main source of difficulty will be, though - pure damage or clever status puzzles.

I don't think BoF lends itself easily to clever status puzzles, though

Rei needs a reason to not go Weretiger.

maxi, on 04 October 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

If I could, I'd swing more towards damage management than statii puzzles. If I could, I'd like to have some bosses like that -- statii puzzles -- but I don't like it when you have a ton of bosses being a DPS race or just a fight where you can beat it simply by pouring on the damage.

It'd be more about making that choice of whether you need Rei/Ryu's damage output right then and there, or if you need some of the other things they offer more (Lightning magic/Speed buffs or Healing/Defense buffs respectively). By sending Rei into Weretiger at an inopportune moment -- let's say before you have a chance to gauge the abilities of a boss -- you run the risk of fucking yourself over by locking him out of his other abilities.

If you send Ryu into his Dragon Form too early, you run the risk of wasting some of your AP (and if you see this and decide not to Restore Form, you are going to die).

As you might have noticed, I'm leaning towards buffs and debuffs in particular more than (but not in place of) negative statii right now. I'll use a 1.3 analogy to better explain. Take Queklain, for instance. A lot of people like to hammer his MA to the point where Dark Bio is manageable, but not so much that he switches to Nightmare/Full-life spam. If I can figure out the AI, something similar could be a real possibility. If not, you may find yourself trying to get that foothold so that you can survive quite often.

This offers something similar to what I mentioned earlier about balancing bosses with the assumption of Accession. It offers a challenge normally, and a larger challenge should anyone (I'm looking at you, Anima) desire it.

Edit: This made me think for a moment.. anything Rei has access to -- offensive magic-wise -- Nina does as well. So that's not really a reason for him to not go Weretiger. Hmm.. I'll figure something out.

This post has been edited by Advent: 04 October 2013 - 09:55 AM

This is incredible because I had been replaying this game recently and was searching the internet for some type of hardtype mod for it, and had no luck. As far Character stats/skills, I pretty much agree that Ryu and Peco require no stat buffs, Peco starting at Level 1 can become anything, most put him under Fahl which is optimum for him, and Ryu as we well know has his dragon forms. Nina and Garr are overall the least useful for opposite reasons, Nina can't keep up with Hp/Def, further compounded by master builds, and Garr is basically like Peco without all the AP so he can seldom use skills, usually reserving them for a boss fight. Nina and Garr need the most buffs. Momo and Rei, are right there in the middle, and are overall some of the most fun characters to use... so let's see.



Ryu:

Currently in the game, Peco has the offensive breath attacks, Fire and Ice breath. That may make sense on Ryu more, since he is a dragon, and can perhaps breath fire or ice while still in his human form. It might be a good idea to grant these to Ryu to give him some offensive variety, and i'll explain why in my Peco section.

Does Ryu really need all those healing spells? He also loses them all once he transforms! If you are using Ryu as your main healer, he can't heal too much in a boss fight! Have Ryu keep Heal and Protect, and give the other ones to someone else. More on this later.


Peco:

Peco's breath attacks, though they are gained late, make Peco perhaps the best in the game, even better than Ryu, when Peco is under Fahl from level 1. The reason is Breath attacks are keep at 3ap, and do damage that is Hp/3. Peco's HP is astronomical, so these cheap breath spells are doing more damage than Sirocco with Nina by that point, for much less AP. Not only do you have a character who is unstoppable tank, with very high attack power, in the attack formation countering every hit ( 100% reprisal) and gets a 70% attack boost, he may hit all enemies for high damage with 3 AP. This is not balanced. Ryu's Hp is not as ridiculous, so the spells won't be nearly as overpowered with him.

Doing this leaves Peco as basically just an attacking, high reprisal tank, which is so effective, he really needs nothing else.

That is of course if you put Peco under Fahl, but he can be anything and have any skills you want, and without breath attacks, giving him Magic is even a suitable option now because before his breath attacks would always outclass any spells he might learn!


Nina:

like said, Hp and Defense need to be buffed, and Magic attacks pale in comparison to physical due to skill like Shadowwalk, Super Combo, Aura, Double and Triple Blow. All this contributes to Nina's suckage. Magic attack spells need a damage boost, if their set values can be altered somehow, if not, increase her intelligence growth as well. I don't know the formula for magic damage but apparently intelligence is not equivalent to magic attack directly but boosts it, as well as magic defense. Nina could also use learning some spells at an earlier level. Giving her more agility would also make her more useful. Nina really needs a LOT of help.....like seriously.


was ranting a bit there but you probably know what i'm talking about lol. Here's a more specific idea. Momo's HP/Def is second worse to Nina basically right, but is JUST enough for Momo to survive a hit or 2 and still keep on kicking. I say you basically give Nina the same HP/Def as Momo, that may give her just enough to solve the problem. Also, give Nina the same intelligence as Momo, Nina needs it even more ( Momo was like a better version of Nina in the same way as Peco to Garr). So now the difference between Nina and Momo is Nina has more ap and a list of attack magic, Momo has support and healing spells and very high attack power with her cannon. Momo is still better in my opinion to the weakness of attack magic in this game, but this helps Nina out a lot.


Now let's diversify Nina a little bit more then from strict attack magic, in a game where attack magic is not favored. Ryu's healing spells were mostly removed, let's give Nina the 2 multi-target ones, Vitalize and Vigor + Heal for basic healing outside battle, making her a useful healing in the middle of an intense boss fight.









Garr:

Garr was so outclassed by Peco in the original. What can be done to make it so that Garr is not just a worse version of Peco? Garr's stats gear him toward a physical attacking tank, and that is also Peco's most effective build as well. One thing you can do with Garr is further boost his Attack and Defense so he's clearly the highest in both of the game with armor/weapons. Now you have 1 tank with high attack and defense, one with high HP,AP and reprisal rates.

Another route you can go is AP, his is so pathetic its an outrage, and it limits you to Fahl because if he's under Bunyan, you have a Garr with 8AP for the whole game...im serious ( Master rebalancing is also something the hack should consider). Garr should have 50-60 ap naturally by end game levels, without help from masters in my opinion, still considerably low, but not so much we can never use the skills. Another thing you can do with Garr once you boost his Intelligence because Garr is the game is actually not an idiot as his intelligence stat might imply, so giving him enough intelligence and AP, Garr could feasibly use his magic spells which are just there to be there really. Nothing special, figure his AP/Intelligence around the same as Rei, where Rei can occassionally use his lightning attack spells, and they do enough damage to help out. Figure Garr having the same AP/Intelligence as Rei. With that, Garr is at least not such a one-sided character.


Also, if you go this way with Garr, I'd give him Protect, Shield and Might as well. Like how Rei learns Slow and Speed, since his main attribute is speed, Garr learning Attack and Defense buffs is fitting. Afterall, Garr is a guardian and a protector. Secondly, Garr should also Raise Dead and Resurrect, stolen from Ryu. Garr is a holy warrior, and it does fit, he still doesn't have the AP to be a reliable healer, but he can be a back up to revive someone if you don't have ammonias on hand. Also Peco learns Rejuvenate naturally, give Ryu's lost Rejuvenate spell too Garr then.


Giving Garr all these buffs makes him competitive with Rei, who usually outclasses him with Weretiger and spell/skill use, and can keep him competitive with Peco as tank of choice.



Momo:


If a permanent accuracy boost is possible ( ie, like she is on Dlonzo all the time...even when she isn't, or there is a hidden artemis cap there) I say do it. Momo will also be the most well rounded healer cause she knows all the single target healing skills, Vitalize and Raise Dead. Garr has the Resurrect and Nina has Vigor, the upgrades to Vitalize and Raise dead, so they still have use.

Besides you're all around best healer, she has sick attack power and buff skills. I can't think of any other buffs besides accuracy to give her, without making her too far above other characters.



Rei:



Rei's weretiger becoming berserk is kind of an inconveinience, but I dont know if thats easy to change and the developer's probably intended it as a draw back. Otherwise, not sure what else Rei really needs, he got the best speed + speed spell to ensure double turns in boss fights, he hardly needs to use AP because of were tiger.






Other changes:


Healing herbs, Vitamins and Multivitamins being cheap and easy to obtain kind of make character's healing abilities a moot point. Keep them available, but increase the prize on them quite a bit to deter players from it. It gives extra value to character's healing abilities, and pretty much everyone but Rei can heal in this version idea without having 99 of each of these.


Some Masters need to be rebalanced obviously. Fahl is the best master in the game, since Agility and Intelligence being lost is not an issue for most characters..heck even Nina, and his boosts to Hp, Def and Atk are game breaking.


Fahl is currently:

Hp+4
Def+3
Atk+1
Intell -3
Agility -3


Maybe it can be changed to:

Hp+3
Def+2
Intell-2
Agility-2

or something like that, I reduced all the benefits by -1. and also reduced the penalties a bit


Giotto, is considered by most the worst master in the game, and his skills suck too!


Hp: +4
Ap+3
--------------------------------
Pwr-1
Int-2
Def-1
Agl-1

lowers all core stats. Contrast this with Ladon:

Hp-6
Ap-6
Pow+2
Def+2
Int+2
Agl +1


What can we do to improve Giotto? Ladon improves score stats +8, and lower Hp/AP by -12. So roughly, for every core stat that is dropped, raise Hp/Ap by 1.5 x that. But in truth, the Hp-6/Ap-6 may as well Hp-20 and Ap-20, they just won't gain any Hp or Ap, unless your Peco you might gain Hp once in awhile.


Here's an idea for Giotto:

Hp: +5
Ap+5
--------------------------------
Pwr-1
Int-2
Def-1
Agl-1


Same reductions, but we boost his Hp and Ap boosts. Now its more worthwhile to put him under Garr let's say, who would lose out on Power he'd gain from another master, but gain more precious AP he so needs yet so lacks, and pads his HP stat even more than Fahl would, though he'd be losing defense rather than gaining.


Those were 2 of the masters I felt needed the most help.


Enemy/Master skills:

It's a damn shame that many great skills are only learned near the end of the game, where you can't get much use out of them. I'd be cool some Master's could teach these skills, or enemies earlier in the game:

These are skills like:


Frost Strike - 4
---
[Patrio] (Tournament of Champions, round 1)
Bolt (Comm. Tower, first visit)
Armor (Station Myria)
---
Ice damage vs. one enemy at current power. Can cause sleep.


Can get kinda early? but it aint easy to obtain!


This could be one learned from Giotto or Hachio


Ebonfire-3: only available in a cleared game, maybe have Emitai teach this?


Triple Blow - 5
---
Death Bot (Station Myria)
[Dragon Lord] (Station Myria)
Vampire (Station Myria)
---
Three attacks at 2/3 power.

Why at the last place in the game!? Seems fitting for Dlonzo maybe?


Evil Eye - 7
---
[Chimera] (Station Myria)
Vampire (Station Myria)
[Sample 4] (Station Myria)
---
High chance to paralyze one target.


Hmmm.. Hachio maybe!? If so I'd say Frost strike for Giotto


Chill - 7
---
[Arwan] (Station Myria)
Revenant (Station Myria)
---
Ice attack, can lower AGL.



Another Giotto ability perhaps



Thunder Strike - 4
---
Mist Man (Station Myria)
---
Electrical attack vs, one enemy at current power. Can cause paralysis.


Give this to Rei as a naturally learned skill through level up.




Gloom - 1
---
Night Bat (Station Myria)
---
Turns one enemy into an undead monster.


Hachio again




Those skills I am rarely able to make use of, and they are awesom

Sorry for that long post! Also overall, Magic needs to be buffed, so base power of all magic spells increased so it in on par with physical spells. Mjollnir with Nina should do similar damage to Shadowwalk with Momo, otherwise why would I use Nina? You have to think of it from that point of view. If that can't be done, just boost everyone's intelligence a shit ton, but proportionally.

Goddamn dude you wrote a fucking essay here. Not that that's a bad thing; I'll address only the characters even though most of it has been covered already.

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

I'll consider the Breath Attacks and bring it up with Emitai (unless he reads this), but Ryu's healing spells are going to stay. Why? Because it provides a clear choice to the player. If you Accession too early then you're going to lose them and it may very well cost you that boss battle or at the very least some of your AP.

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Peco is an issue, and one that I'll probably end up balancing other characters around which I'll explain in Garr's section.

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

I'll address this and the next two paragraphs here. Nina will be getting some healing/support magic, but the trick here is to do it in such a way where Nina and Momo do not feel the same. I don't want to standardize characters here.

Nina will be getting some rather hefty defense buffs along with Momo as well. Sadly, at present I don't know where Master data is stored, but I may be able to find it given a little time.

Also, if I were to leave Nina's spells as is, she would still be dead weight because boss battles are going to be designed in such a way where you're going to value healing and defensive buffs as a whole. Straight damage is going to see an overall soft nerf -- that is, statii and debuffs are going to be brought more in line with it so they're more attractive.

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

This is definitely an issue. There's not much I can do to nerf Peco other than changing the level at which you get him (since I don't know where the Master data is stored at present, and even if I did that, that's a cure worse than the disease because it'd be punishing other characters because Peco is abusable like that) but I can balance other characters and bosses around the assumption of Peco.

I actually think it might make more sense to give his breath attacks to Garr since he's.. well.. pretty much a fucking dragon himself. His AP will see a buff, and his intelligence will be buffed to a point where it's not as high as Ryu's or Nina/Momo, but it'll still be useful. I'm probably not gonna give him a ton of healing/support magic though. That said, he will be getting some type of magic like that, probably revival.

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

I'm gonna be spreading Nina's damage spells and Momo's healing spells around them a bit. I dunno how yet, but in such a way where they don't feel the same. I might give Momo an accuracy boost, though. I'll bring that up with Emitai.

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Weretiger's berserk is intentional and honestly I wouldn't remove it even if I could. Damage as I said is going to see an overall soft nerf, and with Rei there are going to be some situations where his thunder magic may well do more damage than Weretiger. Plus, when he's not in Weretiger he can help out with items and such. This provides a choice to the player similar to Ryu's Accession I mentioned before.

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

On the Multivitamins, Anima made the point to me before that they're easily farmable in the Faerie Village. I plan to do something about that, but I'm not quite sure what.

I'm just going to let the rest sit where it's at, because as I said I don't know where Master data is located right now. Great post though. Keep 'em comin'!

No problem! I like where you're thinking is headed, and Garr having Fire Breath would be awesome, kind of makes his Fire spells useless...but heck, they were already useless anyway

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Fire Breath you do have a point about.. I'm hoping he ends up in a place where either Fire Breath or his fire spells are viable options depending on the route you take him in.

I shouldnt plagiarize, the skills and what enemies they are learned from I took from a faq on gamefaqs. Now the Master data being tough to find is a bummer, hopefully you or emitai can discover it. The mod wouldnt feel complete without master and skill changes...that can be whole seperate post though lol

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Skill changes can be done. I'm talking about which Master teaches X and Y level and what attributes the Masters affect.

Advent, on 06 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Coool, that's not a huge deal, I feel that only Giotto and Fahl attributes were in need of some tweaking anyway.


If I understand correctly you can change the skills that master's give you, here's a couple of ideas:


Dlonzo:

Monopolize....at 2 levels
Ap cost.......0
Description...Steals all EXP

- Intimidate....at 3 levels
AP cost.......0
Description...Cancels one target's movement


Triple Blow here: *possible criticism...overpowered at this point?*


- Steal.........at 4 levels
AP cost.......0
Description...Steals item from enemy


Giotto:

What can you learn?
- Trump.........at 2 levels
Ap cost.......0
Description...Usable at 0AP; casts random spell

Frost Strike

- Berserk.......at 5 levels
AP cost.......2
Description...Raises Pwr for 3 turns; then death

- SuddenDeath...at 8 levels
AP cost.......1
Description...Casts Death on random target

Chill



Hachio:


Mighty Chop...at 2 levels
Ap cost.......0
Description...Attack vs one target; ignores Def

- Demonbane.....at 4 levels
AP cost.......1
Description...Attack; extra damage to devils


Neither are useful, replace with Gloom and Evil Eye ( I personally have never bothered to apprentice Hachio)

retrogamer, on 06 October 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

I guess I didn't convey that well enough. I can't change them giving you X skill at Y level or their attributes, but I can change their base power (probably AP cost too).

Master stats have been edited into my spreadsheet. Working on abilities tomorrow.

That's incredibly awesome

Pretty sure I just found Momo's accuracy, too.

Advent, on 07 October 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Time to put in overtime...