[2.0] Esper Equip Bonuses

[2.0] Esper Equip Bonuses

3 Pages
1
2
3
→

You cannot start a new topic
You cannot reply to this topic

#1 Mishrak

Improbability Breaker

Job: Regulator
Posts: 1,581

25 August 2016 - 08:56 PM

My first idea for this concept was to have each Esper have multiple options to chose bonuses from, like an affinity or talent that each Esper permanently acquired after a certain point in the game. After a discussion with Think0028 and dn, they explained to me the limitations of SRAM as the major factor why a decision driven, affinity-style system would be pretty close to impossible to code. They also clarified some thoughts about how adding Esper abilities would work. After more conversation, I realized we can still implement a system for BNW that makes Espers unique and interesting. Here's the concept:

All Espers gain a bonus that's already available on existing relics, or listed here: http://i.imgur.com/uUiCfuq.png
Esper bonuses are unlocked upon reaching EL 15. This puts the character at about level 25 and should be around the middle of the WoR unless the player grinds. This is also per character, and unlocks every Esper specifically for that character. So everyone will need to be 15 to get the extra affects.
EL/Stat Gains/Spell Learning/Esper Summoners still behave as normal.
There are no duplicate or overlapping bonuses across Espers.

Rules I tried to follow:

Give the player more options, and potentially free up some relic slots in some cases without completely obsoleting existing relics.
The bonuses generally flow thematically with what the Esper's normal role is. This doesn't stay completely consistent as I run out of ideas.
Don't give characters bonuses that would be insanely overpowered or give them abilities they wouldn't normally have access to.

Lastly, keep in mind we're pretty limited in what we can actually do for Espers. No new effects (like elemental boosts), no flat HP/MP gains, and nothing super crazy (like allows 2hand weapon). I also decided to avoid giving flat stat gains since the game is already balanced around the existing EL. No reason to add more. Please discuss ideas and thoughts!

**BTB will obviously balance this stuff correctly. Don't Panic

Auto-Status Espers:

Spoiler

Status Immunity Espers:

Spoiler

Special Effect Espers:

Spoiler

HP/MP/Damage Espers:

Spoiler

#2 BTB

Co-Creator of BNW

Job: Modder
Posts: 4,548

25 August 2016 - 09:27 PM

+1 for the Airplane! reference

#3 SuperHario

Novice

Job: Member
Posts: 76

26 August 2016 - 04:29 AM

Deleted, see new post below.

This post has been edited by SuperHario: 29 August 2016 - 09:17 PM

#4 thzfunnymzn

Game Breaker

Job: Member
Posts: 2,117

26 August 2016 - 08:34 AM

Hnnn...

Repelling a few status effects seems nice. Nothing terribly powerful, but it's a nice little extra. No reason it couldn't be available earlier either (which I think is something to consider; I'm concerned about over-focusing & putting too much into the WoR, and not doing enough for the WoB). Some of the other stuff is pretty minor & cool.

Some of the other stuff feels like power creep, sometimes serious power creep (i.e., imitating powerful, build-defining relics). Character balance-wise, it's probably best that none of these effects are very powerful: it's more likely to break balance than to help it. (I didn't say it was impossible, just that the odds are against you). I'd focus on minor effects, since that should be enough to help underperforming espers without really affecting character balance.

Something else, I think the thematic limitation is causing all ready good espers to just get better, while underperforming ones just fall further behind. Not saying it shouldn't be thematic, but rather, that said aesthetics are actively working against your design goal.

Character Balance, Some Specifics

Spoiler

Something to consider here is not just what the esper gets, but if that specific character needs it.

For auto-status espers, Golem, Fenrir, & Zoneseek are among the best summons (or the best, in Golem's case). Giving them powerful auto-status simply cements them as the best summons, without competition. Golem esp. is nasty b/c it gives the Figaro Bros. even more goodies. Same with Zoneseek & the Thamasa Duo. Fenrir breaks the balance of Mirage Vest vs. heavy armor for Gau & Shadow, skyrocketing both their DPS & bulkiness. Carbunkl & Maduin are fine. Kirin is somewhat of a worry, but not like the previous three.

For Special Effects, Ragnarok & Palidor are imitating powerful, build-defining equips. Palidor is stealing Dragon Helm's job & Ragnarok is breaking the balance of Gem Box vs Soul Box. Alexandr is also imitating two relics that vig Celes is likely equipping. I'm also concerned that you're banking on Palidor & Alexandr fixing some problems with certain character builds (Dragoon, Mogoon, vig Celes), in which case, these bonuses miss the mark. Those builds are all ready late-blooming enough & they're main equipment issue is weapons, not relics. (If I made a wrong assumption, I apologize). The other effects are minor & likable.

For HP/MP/Damage, again, Bismark, Shiva, & Odin are imitating powerful, build-defining equips. For Shiva, there is a shortage of Crystal Orbs, & Strago does tend to lose out over the girls, but something still seems very off about trying to fix this via esper equip bonuses; if for no other reason than that it limits character builds (always forced to give a Crystal Orb to Celes or Strago), & b/c mag Celes doesn't need yet more goodies. Odin would destroy the balance of Circlet vs. Dark Hood, skyrocketing Strago's amazingness yet another level. (This change esp. has potential to overpower Strago, as one of his key weaknesses is limited relic space. Another relic slot really has potential to overpower the old geezer). Bismark, again, may or may not prove to be OP, but it still seems off to give a freebie powerful relic to anyone; like bad form or setting a bad precedent. The others are either minor (+12.5%), or not as worrisome as the previous three (Phoenix).

#5 magictrufflez

Novice

Job: Member
Posts: 90

26 August 2016 - 07:48 PM

I love the concepts here, but yeah, balancing would definitely be a bit of an issue. I mean, with some grinding (and I love to grind), these options, especially the damage ones would make possible gamebreakers even more gamebreakery.

What sticks out to me mostly is the Strago and Cyan +25% damage espers. In every BNW run I've done, those 2 are already wrecking everything and their grandparents by endgame.

Also, second the kudos for that Airplane reference!

#6 Bishop

Challenger

Job: Member
Posts: 704

28 August 2016 - 01:52 PM

thzfunnymzn, on 26 August 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

I'm concerned about over-focusing & putting too much into the WoR, and not doing enough for the WoB
[...]
Some of the other stuff feels like power creep

Instead of unlocking the abilities at EL 15, how about deactivating them at EL 15? Because you drain the esper of its power as you use it (for those of us who need flavor justifications). This puts more cool relicy stuff in the WoB, discourages grinding, and won't affect balance so much since you cut out a lot of superpower possibilities by limiting levels. Just a thought.

#7 Synchysi

Co-Creator of BNW

Job: Hacker
Posts: 1,081

29 August 2016 - 05:03 AM

I do have an issue with the current esper system in that there's no real incentive to equip those espers that have weaker summon effects, so I'm on board with this idea, though the actual bonuses need some work - they shouldn't mimic important relic effects.

#8 BTB

Co-Creator of BNW

Job: Modder
Posts: 4,548

29 August 2016 - 07:46 AM

The strongest effects I would recommend would be null/half elemental protection, which is a good benchmark since the elemental damage summons are generally seen as the most useless of the bunch.

#9 seraph9888

Hardcore Gamer

Job: Member
Posts: 320

29 August 2016 - 10:29 AM

blackheart + terrato > white dragon :thumbsup:

edit: this i probably okay though. it's just one person. and getting terrato is kinda a pain.

This post has been edited by seraph9888: 29 August 2016 - 11:08 AM

#10 SuperHario

Novice

Job: Member
Posts: 76

29 August 2016 - 09:16 PM

Ok, totally clean slate. Mull these over:

(Minor Edits underlined)

Spoiler

This post has been edited by SuperHario: 01 September 2016 - 08:06 AM

#11 Robo Jesus

Novice

Job: Member
Posts: 54

18 September 2016 - 06:05 PM

Hmm, I really like the idea, but has anyone considered the possibility of adding negative bonuses to some of the Espers as well? Like various lowered stats, or status effects like Sap or Blind or whathaveyou?

#12 BTB

Co-Creator of BNW

Job: Modder
Posts: 4,548

09 October 2016 - 11:52 AM

So, here's what I'm thinking.

1/2 Fire damage - Ifrit
1/2 Ice damage - Shiva
1/2 Bolt damage - Ramuh
1/2 Wind damage - Maduin
1/2 Water damage - Bismark
1/2 Earth damage - Terrato

Block Blind/Mute/Muddle - Siren
Block Poison/Imp/Bserk - Stray
Block Sleep/Stone/Death - Seraph

Auto-Rflect - Alexandr
Auto-Regen - Starlet
Auto-Haste - Palidor
Auto-Safe - Bahamut
Auto-Shell - Tritoch

+5 Vigor - Unicorn
+5 Magic - Kirin
+5 Stamina - Shoat
+5 Speed - Odin

+10 Def - Golem
+10 M.Def - Zoneseek
+10 Evade - Fenrir
+10 M.Evade - Phantom

HP +25% - Phoenix
MP +25% - Carbunkl

Physical Damage +25% - Crusader
Magical Damage +25% - Ragnarok

Note that this is a rough draft, particularly with regards to some of the numbers. I'm still on the fence between half and null damage for the elemental espers, and auto-safe/shell may be dropped to SOS if I deem them to be a bit too overpowered. The purpose of this system is primarily for flavor and to give you a reason to care what esper is equipped, though I am using it in a few places to fine-tune some balance areas that I'm still not perfectly happy with.

Of particular mention is the Physical Damage +25% on Crusader, which is meant to help shore up Celes's vigor build. This is important, since I've been wanting to switch the bonus on Crusader to +Speed/Stamina but haven't since her vigor build is hurting enough already. The Magical Damage +25% on Ragnarok is Terra's mandatory mirror to Celes's option and comes a bit too late to really mess with balance too much. Vigor builds are unpopular at the moment for *both* girls, but in Terra's case it's more due to her stamina build - I believe that fixing the damage overflow bug should reign it in a bit since a vigor build using the Apocalypse would be less affected by it (and would enjoy Ragnarok's boost to the Flare procs).

#13 magictrufflez

Novice

Job: Member
Posts: 90

09 October 2016 - 01:46 PM

BTB---at first glance, I think almost all of those perks are very balanced (although I have the same reservations about the auto-skills), and each bonus is thematically appropriate!

1 potential balance problem---Golem giving +10 Def gives power-gamers like myself the ability to hit 255 def with Edgar. I just checked, and currently I can deck Edgar out focusing solely on maximizing Def and get to 247 (Crystal Shield/Helm, Lazy Shell, 2 Safety Gloves), which means an additional 10 will max him out at 255.

Granted, you and Syn may have done some rejigging of the damage formula that I'm not aware of, but I know in vanilla, hitting this number made literally every physical attack do 1/0 damage to you, which would potentially make Edgar even more of a Golden God for large sections of the 2nd half of the game. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

#14 BTB

Co-Creator of BNW

Job: Modder
Posts: 4,548

09 October 2016 - 01:54 PM

I thought about that, but I'm not too concerned. One, it's a really fucked-up setup whose only real benefit is negating defense-respecting physical damage. Two, Edgar is kind of an underappreciated character at the moment, particularly in LLGs (where such a setup has any merit whatsoever).

My bigger concern was Sabin, who is largely balanced by his low defense. I may drop the defense of Golem and Zoneseek down to 5 if that becomes an issue.

#15 vonriel

Novice

Job: Member
Posts: 23

09 October 2016 - 09:17 PM

The only one I don't like is the +5 Magic on Kirin. What was the reasoning behind it? Because while I understand helping out Locke's casting build initially, Kirin is the only esper option for Cyan in the IMRF. Left up to me, I'd probably swap it with Unicorn's benefit, because of this. Given the window of time between the two, it doesn't seem like that large an issue, and it makes you feel slightly better about taking Cyan.

On the auto-safe/shell conversation, I wonder if it's really all that worth the concern. Terra's builds almost universally end up with large stamina, largely negating the need for auto-shell to live. Auto-shell would also be competing with +25% hp/mp or +5 vigor as esper bonuses, which I think are better for her late-game options. So the only question is if auto-safe on Relm is too strong, but unless she has a potential rod build that I don't see, I'm not certain it's enough of an advantage to require sos safe instead.

In the end, I'd be more worried about auto-haste potentially breaking Mog's dances than auto-safe making Relm too, uh, safe. Unless there's another change in 2.0 that I'm missing.

#16 BTB

Co-Creator of BNW

Job: Modder
Posts: 4,548

10 October 2016 - 09:09 AM

vonriel, on 09 October 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

The only one I don't like is the +5 Magic on Kirin. What was the reasoning behind it?

Early on, it helps Locke and Cyan function a bit better as healers. Later, it will make Kazekiri/Mutsunokami damage more competitive or be a boon for Locke's mage build.

vonriel, on 09 October 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

On the auto-safe/shell conversation, I wonder if it's really all that worth the concern. Terra's builds almost universally end up with large stamina, largely negating the need for auto-shell to live. Auto-shell would also be competing with +25% hp/mp or +5 vigor as esper bonuses, which I think are better for her late-game options. So the only question is if auto-safe on Relm is too strong, but unless she has a potential rod build that I don't see, I'm not certain it's enough of an advantage to require sos safe instead.

I'm hoping that this is the case, but players have surprised me in the past.

vonriel, on 09 October 2016 - 09:17 PM, said:

In the end, I'd be more worried about auto-haste potentially breaking Mog's dances than auto-safe making Relm too, uh, safe. Unless there's another change in 2.0 that I'm missing.

Given that Edgar and Mog are among the mod's more under-appreciated characters at the moment, I have no qualms about giving them one of the most appealing bonuses. Furthermore, they're the two characters that I think would be broken the *least* by a little extra speed.

#17 Think0028

Improbability Breaker

Job: Member
Posts: 1,702

10 October 2016 - 12:06 PM

I like all of these suggested ones a ton, for the record.

#18 SuperHario

Novice

Job: Member
Posts: 76

10 October 2016 - 05:43 PM

Some thoughts,
A build that has some trouble is a Sage Stone Mog - partly because he has limited spells, but also because he has no MP bonus espers. So what if:

Shoat became +25% MP (Strago has the Mage helms for MP boosts and Terra already has the +25% HP esper, so balance; Rerising, RegenXing Setzer appreciates the MP too, though with Go Fish, the extra MP isn't super useful),

Then simplest approach is just to move Carbunkl to +5 Stamina, but this may be excessive for Strago's and Terra's Stam builds. So here's another proposal worth some contemplation:

Carbunkl becomes +5 speed (Strago still gets access to the speed boost, albeit upon WoB acquisition rather that mid to late WoR; could lower the boost to +3 if this is an issue; Terra could use some speed too)

Odin becomes Auto-Shell (pairs well with Relm's Auto-Safe; could swap the Auto effects to help rod-swinging Strago);

Tritoch becomes +10 M. Evade (again, +5 Stamina probably excessive for Terra's Stam build, plus Terra would have access to 3 of the 4 +5 espers);

Finally, Phantom becomes +5 Stamina (gets Celes access to a +5 esper, strengthens ???, which will still not be build-worthy; slightly helps Shadow with M. Defense, and mixes him up a bit so he's not only getting evade boosts).

#19 Julford

Gaming Addict

Job: Member
Posts: 490

10 October 2016 - 10:14 PM

Auto-regen not being on the summon that casts regen on the party confuses me. Kirin also raises Stamina so it harmonizes with itself well as a bonus. Starlet teaches RegenX so the auto-regen isn't entirely unreasonable, but switching it to +5 Stamina instead helps to give both Relm and Setzer extra oomph to the party-heal aspect, rather than making it a "selfish" bonus on an esper that teaches two spells meant for party-healing (Single-target Cure 3 is overkill healing in most cases, so I consider it a party-heal skill). (EDIT: Totally thought Kirin had +5 Stam and not +5 Magic. Considering Shoat is a +2 mag esper it seems weird to give it +S5 Stam in the first place, so I'll motion to make it the +5 Mag esper and give its' +5 stam to Starlet)

I really like SuperHario's idea of putting Auto-safe on Odin, both because it fits the idea of a super-badass-warrior giving Strago help in a front-line capacity and also because Strago is probably one of the easiest characters to gear for both his primary stat (Magic/Stam) as well as speed, so Odin is just overkill (53 speed with no other changes to how I normally gear him, I think. On the character with the lowest starting speed!). The +5 speed wouldn't even need to go to Bahamut really, you could shuffle that around with other bonuses to settle on something more needed for Relm.

Did you consider auto-berserk as an option? Putting it on Crusader would help with Celes' Vigor build while ensuring the magic build avoids it like the plague. Would also open up an option for Terra to use in Ragnarok, potentially one that would be more useful to her Vigor build as well (auto-Morph auto-Morph auto-Morph).

#20 BTB

Co-Creator of BNW

Job: Modder
Posts: 4,548

10 October 2016 - 11:11 PM

Bear in mind that all; of these bonuses were very carefully considered with regards to who got them and not making them overpowered. In a lot of cases, the bonuses are helping to shore up weaknesses rather than play to strengths, and I deliberately gave bonuses that were thematically appropriate, but did not match up with existing effects or EL boosts.

Share this topic:

3 Pages
1
2
3
→

You cannot start a new topic
You cannot reply to this topic

Insane Difficulty: [2.0] Esper Equip Bonuses - Insane Difficulty