[theonyxphoenix]

I had already finished 1.6 once and was excited for the changes to 1.7. I just finished the most recent release along with a few patches. (Clean, Rage Acquisition, and CTB). I have to say that I am really liking the new changes. I made it a point to keep the lowest leveled characters in my party and I found myself a new appreciation for some characters.

- Locke. Holy smokes, Locke and Valiance. He murders everything. Playing this game since the 90s and Locke never EVER made the cut for any of my final 12, let a lone my final 4. With his boomerangs raining down aerial death and his ability to pull off some rare steals, I kept him in the party to dish out damage. I never really took to his spell selection, though.

- Strago's selection of spells are amazing. (I still cannot find Refract in the WOB). I like the he and Relm both have Osmose. I find that it really makes them able to stick around. His weapon and armor choices allow him to absorb a lot and filling him with Stamina gives him good regen ticks.

- Relm, Same as with Locke. I never had an appreciation for her. With Osmose, RegenX, and Reraise she is very versatile. On some bosses her Sketch command was dealing 3-4000+ damage.

- Cyan. The CTB really helps with his commands, but I feel like by the time he gets Cleave that most of the enemies were immune to it. Either that or it just missed a lot. Also, with him being in the front row the lack of a shield really hurt. He ended up on the floor most of the time. I pumped him full of Stamina to take advantage of Empowerer but magic just annihilated him even with magic defense relics.

- Celes. I built her to take advantage of ??? and regen ticks. Wow. It really made her awesome taking her in that direction to build her like he-who-must-not-be-named. Of course the FC sequence is a thing of beauty.

- Terra. My first time in 1.6 I built her with Magic and MP but found her dying...a lot. So this time I focused on Regan and HP. The hardest thing that I found was keeping her MP filled. She was the only one that I typically used MP items for. Both games I used Ultima to plow through the end bosses dealing 8-9000 Morphed. It felt a bit poetic and really enjoyable. Since it comes so late it definitely is a good payoff.

- Shadow. While still made of tissue paper when it comes to Magic...his speed and support is amazing! Even though I was only getting about 2k with the Skeans he could almost double up on the other character's turns.

- Gau. Griffon, Conjurer, and Cephalid. I never really used anything else. Gau is so dependent on the player's knowledge of his rages/immunities, etc. There are so many rages that simply are outclassed. I guess if you know what you are looking for as far as the best rages then it is different than if you are just discovering them. I wish that we could see what the immunities are in the Rage menu screen. Granted, his equip set gives him access to a lot of defensive possibilities...but I never felt the desire to go through all the rages to figure out what they do. Playing on the go also doesn't lend well to utilizing the documents, either.

- Edgar. I just cannot find a good build that I like with him. WOB he powers on because he gets good equipment but I just cannot decide on a good way to take him. I find that, like Cyan, he just keels over to Magic. He is good for Golem though.

- Mog. Mog's equipment actually gives him some of the beefiest defense in the game. I think he can actually reach the highest magic evade as well. I gave him a little bit more love this time around with Magic increases and Dance. I feel like they are just a bit too random. Although, Harvester with it's remedy properties is my go-to healing of choice. BNW has many enemies with status inflicting attacks and this clears them out.

- Sabin + Terrato = <3. 3000+HP with Stamina and Regen ticks dealing 7000 damage with Bum Rush. My first time in 1.6 I didn't pump him with enough HP and he spent most of the time in the dirt.

Knowing a little more on how things work (i.e. the power of regen healing, the importance of HP on characters with weak equipment pools, etc.) has helped to make 1.7 a bit better this time around. Now excuse me while I start it a third time.

Kudos to the team and thanks for reading.

[Lolwayup]

All I can say for Refract in WOB is try using every spell on every enemy to see if one has a reaction to one of the spells.

[thzfunnymzn]

By stamina on Cyan, do you mean equipment, or mass Kirin? If the former, try mass Kirin and just spamming Dragon. I find it far more effective than the obvious "Fighter" route.

Gau's Rages are complicated and could use some work. I'm tempted to showcase some ideas I've worked for Rage.

Yes, Sabin needs his HP. Plenty of Terrato is a great ending for his beatdown build.

For Dance, ignore the Moogle Charm & spam Earth Blues.

For Edgar, what builds have you tried? He'll never be good for DPS (Dragooning too slow, double jump only 25%). All of his builds actually revolve around utility & support (even vigor). Siren + some Unicorn focuses on speed & maximizing his utility (sans Golem), but he'll have the game's worst attack power (sans AoE). Golem + Palidor sacrifices some utility, but you get better HP & a usable Chainsaw. Either way, you're mainly focusing on utility: Cure 2, Golem, Defib, Battery, Haste, Sap, Slow, AoEs. All Edgar builds should use the Nirvana Band; if Kirin Cyan needs one, trade in the Hero Shield for a second Nirvana Band (stam Sabin shouldn't bother). Crystal equipment can help his defenses (I esp. like the Helm), and the Hero Ring works very well on Edgar. (The Dragon Helm also has surprisingly good magic defense).

This post has been edited by thzfunnymzn: 22 July 2016 - 10:11 AM

[theonyxphoenix]

Lolwayup, on 22 July 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

All I can say for Refract in WOB is try using every spell on every enemy to see if one has a reaction to one of the spells.

How vaguely helpful . Just let me ask this...is it missable in the WOB?

thzfunnymzn, on 22 July 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

By stamina on Cyan, do you mean equipment, or mass Kirin? If the former, try mass Kirin and just spamming Dragon. I find it far more effective than the obvious "Fighter" route.

I pumped him full of Kirin levels and then mainly used Genji Equipment. Dragon was powerful and his regen ticks were great. I just really felt disappointed in his 4 and 7 skills. Basically I used the few that set status ailments on enemies and just used Empowered and Dragon.

thzfunnymzn, on 22 July 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Gau's Rages are complicated and could use some work. I'm tempted to showcase some ideas I've worked for Rage.

It would be great to see your ideas! The Rage Acquisition patch helps immensely in not having to take him to the Veldt.

thzfunnymzn, on 22 July 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

For Dance, ignore the Moogle Charm & spam Earth Blues.

Is the Moogle Charm good for anything, really?

thzfunnymzn, on 22 July 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

For Edgar, what builds have you tried? He'll never be good for DPS (Dragooning too slow, double jump only 25%). All of his builds actually revolve around utility & support (even vigor). Siren + some Unicorn focuses on speed & maximizing his utility (sans Golem), but he'll have the game's worst attack power (sans AoE). Golem + Palidor sacrifices some utility, but you get better HP & a usable Chainsaw. Either way, you're mainly focusing on utility: Cure 2, Golem, Defib, Battery, Haste, Sap, Slow, AoEs. All Edgar builds should use the Nirvana Band; if Kirin Cyan needs one, trade in the Hero Shield for a second Nirvana Band (stam Sabin shouldn't bother). Crystal equipment can help his defenses (I esp. like the Helm), and the Hero Ring works very well on Edgar. (The Dragon Helm also has surprisingly good magic defense).

Mainly I tried increasing his HP and Stamina and a little Vigor. I guess that is where I went wrong? I mainly used him as a support MP mage with Battery. I know that Drill sets Sap and I feel like his MP pool is low to provide magic support, but he does have the Battery for himself. I really like the idea of Schematics, and I feel like the power of the physical tools really drops off. With his Spears +HP and heavy armor he should be a good tank with Physical damage like Chainsaw/Crossbow/and Drill. Maybe I will go respect him and try a few things.

On that note...the ability to see your winnings in the Coliseum is amazing. Not having to deal with the auction house is equally so. I am interested to see what is done with these in the future.

[thzfunnymzn]

You played Kirin Cyan correctly. That's what he does, and it's beautiful. You are not the only one disappointed with Fighter Cyan. I like the build, and his damage is great in a vaccuum. But he can't tank excepting mass Alexander levels, and he has little else besides attacking & tanking.

Moogle Charm's effects should be listed in the Unlockme.

For Edgar, yes, I would avoid Unicorn + vigor esper. If you want a hybrid Edgar, your options are Palidor + Siren or Golem + Siren. But avoid Unicorn + vigor esper.

Edgar is not a damage dealer, plain and simple.* Of all "endgame" attacks, Chainsaw brings up the rear (excepting stam Sabin's Aurabolt, lulz). Drill is laughable in the midgame. Rather, consider Chainsaw & Drill as "supporting damage" attacks. As an off-turn attack for a supporter, they're good enough. (Edgar's lack of utility Tools in the late WoB is probably the reason why Drill is so laughable). Also, be aware that Schematics only boosts AutoCrossbow.

*Dragooning is meant to be Edgar's alternative "attacker" set-up, but Jump is just too slow.

[blackcat777]

Edgar + Dragoon Helm (jump x2), anyone? Vigor + Speed? Physical damage + 25% relics?

My Edgar would WRECK IT and he dealt godly amounts of damage. Hanging out in the air caused him to miss some magic attacks that would have hurt him a bit more than others, mdef being his only weak point... Plus a touch of Cure magic made him useful on this OH@(%!OH#@($!OH@($! moments.

Sorry, just another fangirl worshipping the King's Spear...

[thzfunnymzn]

>_> I've got my own builds I fanboy over, I ain't gonna blast you over liking Dragoon Edgar. I'm just still of the opinion that Jumping is just too slow & late-blooming to be mechanically competitive with other glass cannon builds. I'd really like a reduced command delay, if not some better elemental coverage for the WoB (Icicle Spear for Atma, anyone? >_> ).

(Barely avoided going into debate mode there. >_<)

This post has been edited by thzfunnymzn: 23 July 2016 - 07:29 PM

[seraph9888]

edgar really doesn't bring anything to that fight, not even seizure. he has cure2 remedy and slow but not much mp, and i guess he's tankyish.

[BTB]

Terrato Sabin is amazingly popular these days.

[thzfunnymzn]

seraph9888, on 23 July 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

edgar really doesn't bring anything to that fight, not even seizure. he has cure2 remedy and slow but not much mp, and i guess he's tankyish.

Edgar lacks options for the midgame, not just Atma. His AoE is no longer overpowering, but he hasn't obtained his great utility tools yet. Also, late-WoB bosses don't have special scripts for handling statuses, like the dragons do. Icicle Spear is a band-aid, yeah, but at least he'd no longer be a complete waste of a team slot. $40 delay Jump with Trident, Fire Lance, & Icicle Spear might allow for some halfway decent elemental damage shenanigans from the dragoon.

Another idea would be to sack one of AutoCrossBow, NoiseBlaster, or BioBlaster to make room for a late-WoB Tool. Three early game AoEs is pretty redundant anyways. It doesn't help poor dragoon out, but at least Tools Edgar would do something in the late WoB.

BTB, on 24 July 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

Terrato Sabin is amazingly popular these days.

Terrato Sabin's always been amazing, but now people can buy their own ELs. 25 Terrato Sabin's has always been arguably a better vigor build than Golem Sabin, and now waiting on a late esper doesn't hurt as much.

[theonyxphoenix]

I like Edgar's tool utility. It would be interesting to see them be just that...tools to set status, etc and buff dragooning for damage.

Maybe give drill more purpose and let it "pierce defenses" by dispelling enemy buffs like reflect, safe, etc.. Let Flash blind, Autocrossbow sap (that many arrows would cause bleeding damage). Noiseblaster can confuse, Chainsaw retains the ID property and Bioblaster poison. Mana battery and Defib are great. I feel with them being ST they could use a little buff.

[thzfunnymzn]

???

WoB Tools: NoiseBlaster, BioBlaster, Chainsaw (180, seizure), ???
WoR: Schematics (Bio, Chainsaw)
WoR Tools: Defib, Flash (single-target Bolt damage), AutoCrossbow, ???

Went a little crazy with a few other ideas.

This change is pointless if that WoB ??? isn't a utility Tool designed to help round out Edgar in the late WoB. Either early Battery, or a re-purposed Drill. Dunno what a re-purposed Drill would even do. Lategame Crossbow insures BTB's tutorial of "don't spam attacks" with early game counterattacks remains intact. Schematics Bio provides a WoR magic AoE, so I used Nakar's idea for Flash.

[seraph9888]

how about something like this:

Spoiler

figaro: autocrossbow sets sap; bioblaster unchanged; noiceblaster sets confuse and berserk (to increase the number of vulnerable targets).

figaro (post narshe battle) or zozo: chainsaw lower battle power

imf, dropped by one of the cranes: "barrier" sets shell and reflect single target. if that's too weak multi-target shell.

figaro (wor): flash unchaged; defibrillator unchanged; schematics increases power of auto-crossbow and chainsaw.

zone eater: mana battery unchanged.

reasons:

Spoiler

two single target physicals are redundant; drill's role gets divided between autocrossbow and chainsaw.
the barrier tool seems both flavorful and useful and comes at an appropriate time. however, i realize that reflect is not always desirable, hence the alternate suggestion.

[thzfunnymzn]

I like your idea for Drill. (Curse my lack of creativity). There's a dearth of Shell casters, and Barrier helps remedy that issue without overpowering Edgar too much. The added Reflect isn't always desirable & requires carefully working around. Multi-target Shell is a no-no: it's a free Zoneseek summon way too early.

You need to split the Tools evenly between the worlds, & I'm against giving a WoB Noise even more awesomeness.

So:

WoB: Noise, Bio, Chainsaw (180), Barrier
WoR: Flash, Crossbow, Defib, Battery
Schematics: Chainsaw

[Bauglir]

If a new tool isn't gonna fly, I'd say something like:

1. Drill in the starting lineup. Doesn't set Sap, but if it'd be underwhelming like that let it randomly Dispel. Give M-Tek Armor high defense if it doesn't have it already to help teach the player about ignoring defense.

2. Autocrossbow moved to WoR in place of Chainsaw. Sets Sap, and comes with the power the Schematics give it currently. If underwhelming, has a chance to ignore defense (if that's possible to make a proc).

3. Chainsaw where we currently get the Drill. Doesn't ignore defense, but deals high damage and randomly cleaves.

Diversifies things a bit. Instead of two single-target defense ignorers stepping on each other's toes, you get two different niches. Moving the Autocrossbow to the WoR also helps give the Bioblaster a more stable role, as you might actually use it for mass damage even if a weakness isn't targeted. Autocrossbow and Chainsaw are both pretty iconic, though, so it's tricky.

[thzfunnymzn]

M-Tek Armor does have high defense, but the thing is, Edgar doesn't really need much defense-ignoring in the tutorial. All randoms pre-Lete actually have low defense.

Also, of all "endgame worthy" attacks, Chainsaw is the second weakest. Only Aurabolt is weaker (IIRC, Aurabolt is like mag Edgar's Chainsaw). Despite defense-ignoring being an over-centralizing property, it's fine on Chainsaw. And a Schematics-boosted Drill out-damaging Chainsaw is non-thematic.

[SuperHario]

With Dragoon Seal available in S. Figaro, maybe Edgar doesn't need an offensive Tool right away to encourage use of his spears early on. So here's another option:

Spoiler

Recruitment in Castle and S. Figaro: Noise

Locke's Scenario: Bio (given to Locke by Duncan's wife; requires new dialogue along the lines of, "Get this to King Edgar. My brother, the castle armorer, thought it would be useful for expelling these Imperial bastards." Then Julian could be the armorer's son, thus the technical prowess. His WoB dialogue could reference this.)

Post Narshe Battle: Bio (for sale in castle, no longer available from Duncan's wife), Drill (single target physical with moderate power, no sap, respects defense)

Post IMTRF: Barrier (could use full Debilitator animation from vanilla, change color from red to green to indicate Shell)

WoR in Figaro Castle: Crossbow (sets sap, moderate power but no split loss, no row penalty) and Defib

WoR in dungeons: Mana (Gogo's Cave, new animation?), Flash (in Owzer's house, that naughty perv)

Schematics upgrades Drill to Chainsaw (random ID, ignores defense, higher power)

This sequence gives 4 tools (2 offensive, 2 support/status) in both WoB and WoR.

[Bauglir]

thzfunnymzn, on 27 July 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

And a Schematics-boosted Drill out-damaging Chainsaw is non-thematic.

Yes, this is definitely true. Wouldn't suggest it.

If Chainsaw is currently Aura Bolt-tier, then the shuffle is probably fine balance-wise, as Aura Bolt comes along at roughly the same point in the game as the Drill, IIRC. I suggest removing defense-ignoring from Chainsaw because Edgar doesn't need two single-target defense-ignoring physical attacks, and of the two of them it's more thematically appropriate on the Drill. Higher attack power on the Chainsaw to compensate is, obviously, necessary.

[thzfunnymzn]

Higher BPow on the Chainsaw would require breaking the game's cap on BPows (255). (Chainsaw's at 240 currently).

[seraph9888]

i haven't played with mog too much in the 1.7. (my controller's been broken and i keep forgetting to get a new one.) but i haven't used wind song much. forest suite all the way.