[Tabeguache]

Question: which bear is best?

No, wait... I meant to say, which specials do you get the most mileage out of at level 99? And why? I know some characters are ballin' at lower levels (cough*Mustadio*cough), when gear makes more of a difference and the ratios of HP and speed are different, but I'm just talking about level 99 and up (you do know how to break the 99 cap, right?). I'm also only talking about specials. Generics are the bomb, but this ain't their thread.

So who are your favorite specials and how do you set them up?

Do you decide based on their stats and then set both their primary and secondary jobs as a normal class, or do you actually utilize their unique classes?

~

I use Worker all the time, because he's a robot, and if that wasn't cool enough, he's a BIG robot! Also, his immunities and juiced stats make me feel like I'm getting revenge on the AI for pulling that kind of crap on me all the time. Also, while slow, the AI ignores him all the time making him a great rez-bot (pun intended).

I use Reis because of her stats, and often as not don't use her class, I just have her being a priestess/mediator or something.

I use Malak as an actual hell knight because he's a weird combo of speed, MA, low FA, and innate TS. However, despite my excitement about what looks to me like a lot of potential, I'm ALWAYS DISAPPOINTED by this punk. He just never performs for me. Also, he's an asshole who tried to gaslight his own sister into suppressing the memory of a sexual assault. What a terrible person.

I use Agrias quite often because, while she doesn't seem popular on here, I get a ton of mileage out of her as holy knight with white magic who can tank a lot of abuse, hit hard at medium range and multiple victims, and wear girly equipment. She's like the anti-Malak: she always does better than I expect despite what looks like on paper to be a limited kit.

I don't ever use Hitoshi because his sprite doesn't look like it belongs in the game.

I don't use Beowulf because I can't figure out how to make him more useful than, say, a normal mediator or oracle.

[Kjata]

If we are talking strictly how strong someone is, Reis and Beowulf are the best, with Marche, Rafa, and Malak up there. The multi-hitting attacks are easily the highest damage potential in the game. They are also annoying to use due to their luck based nature. With the underwhelming as hell stats on Malak/Rafa, they get to sit on the bench.

Beowulf with 2 swords as a Sage with the Nagaock/Faith Rod has a 90ish% hit rate with sleep sword on a decent faith, neutral compat enemy. He obviously has 100% on good compat. A super accurate, instant sleep spell basically means if the enemy can be slept, Beowulf blows them the fuck out. Obviously the design of 1.3 limits his output, but when he is good, he is fucking OP.

If we are talking about which ones I actually use... Well, Beowulf, Cloud, Marche, Mustadio, and Onion Knight were the only specials I ever used on my last playthrough (I was mostly using generics). Onion Knight was my fifth party member, because she is the best white mage in the game. Cloud is fucking useless except against ??? enemies (and was actually a pretty big hindrance against Altima because she is so damn fast), but being able to shoot 999s is nice. Marche just has awesome stats and gear choices in his base job, and does very good work with draw out or a gun shooting spirit combos.

[Davzz]

Marche and OK.

Maybe Beowulf

[Augestein]

Possibly long post incoming?

It's interesting because most of the specials assuming that you don't want to grind or avoid fights or anything, aren't really worth using IMO, and generics still fall in the range of being good enough.

So let's start:

Ramza - As a a special, there's not much special about Ramza. His growths are so-so, and worse than the regular generics for the most part, so you don't really want to particularly level up in this class (not that you'll really be much worse if you did anyways), his multipliers on the other hand, are pretty favorable in his Squire class, and if you learn everything, you can get a decently well rounded moveset. It also has the best equipment options in any special class that isn't the Onion Knight. Finally, Ramza always has the effect of being a guy and a girl in terms of PA and MA, which makes him able to cast better than any other male, and still have some utility doing male things. He'll be decently competent at whatever moveset you give him, and unlike most specials, doesn't have EQUIP SWORD stuck to him to use most of his moves. Overall, he's more of a caster than he is a physical unit. He's also the only special that has the ability to revive in their native moveset.

Mustadio - Mustadio is pretty lackluster in terms of damage, and he's pretty bad in terms of status effects (because they generally don't work). However, for the enemies that you can hit with don't act, it can be pretty nice. He's great against undead enemies that aren't immune to petrify.

Agrias - If she wasn't a female, she'd be the worst special by far. If she's not hitting multiple enemies, she's just really awful. Like I might complain about Rafa's random damage, but geez, Agrias is slow, needs Equip Sword to hit harder, and is an all around disaster of a character at 99.

OK - Good. She has good multipliers, and can equip anything. Pretty much the best at any generic job available.

Marche - Good growths so he'll always be above average in the end, and his moves do a decent amount of damage. Weird equips though, but still okay. His sprite sucks.

Orlandu - He can debuff I guess. He's not really good at higher levels. His growths stink, and he can't equip the clothes like he could before.

Meliadoul - Probably the best of the Sword Skillers. Female equips, able to wear clothes, and she has AoE attack too. Yep, definitely the best.

Hitoshi - Meh. He's okay I guess, but he's super slow. He's not going anywhere on enemies with Defense Up. He has high faith too, so magic just destroys him too.

Rafa - Luck based, but high damage. If she hits once, she'll do enough damage to be better than most.

Reis - Same story as Rafa, but add super growths in the mix and could be a competent physical attacker. Oh, and Holy Bracelet goes off more than Rafa.

Malak - A ninja with magical attack. It's... Really not that impressive. I used to think he was better in the older ones, and that's largely because he was. He's just a ninja with AoE that's unreliable. I'll use throw. Thanks.

Worker 8 - I think he's pretty mediocre to be honest. He's too slow in many instances, and while the 100% accuracy is nice, most of his moves are either redundant, won't work, or the enemy, or are 8 range so you're using it. Problem is that most people by the end have Move + 3 anyways and can buff their speed with haste always assuring that they are faster than him. I guess there's power source but... Reraise is a hefty thing to give up.

Beowulf - God on enemies that can be hit by statuses. Kinda medicore everywhere else.

Cloud - Garbage except on ??? units. And even then...? Eh...

By the end, the best ones are clearly

Marche, Beowulf, Reis , OK, and Meliadoul if we're assuming the top 5.

[Kjata]

Augestein, on 26 January 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

Marche - Good growths so he'll always be above average in the end, and his moves do a decent amount of damage. Weird equips though, but still okay. His sprite sucks.

Marche's equips are AWESOME. Hats are basically better than helmets all of the time. Torso armour is pretty solid all around, with the carbini mail being a pretty strong damn good piece of equipment. Nagarock/Eschut2/thief hat/carabini mail is a very good gear setup that not many people can use, and none can use well except Marche. His sprite is total garbage, though. Literally the only downside to using him.

[Tabeguache]

Ramza having a rez in his native class is a big deal. I often think the worst thing about specials is that their secondary typically must be something with a rez.

[Valenhil]

Wait, there's people who use Marche without Equip Gun? Come on, +3MA and a range 8 Spirit Combo.

Anyway, if we consider "top specials" the ones with setups unique to them that are consistently useful throughout most fights in chapter 4, and compared to generic setups... Well, might as well go all the way.

Tier A (Strong)- Beowulf, Marche, Human Reis
Tier B (Above Average)- Ramza, Agrias, Worker 8, Rafa
Tier C (Average)- Cloud, Meliadoul, Malak, Hitoshi, Mustadio
Tier D (Below Average)- Onion Knight, Orlandu, Dragon Reis, Boco

All very subjective, of course, but this is how I see it.

[Tabeguache]

I think I'm pretty close to Valenhill's tiers, other than my aforementioned inability to properly use Beowulf. Cloud moves up if I'm hunting bosses, and I wouldn't put OK on the bottom, though I wouldn't put her at the top as most people do. Also, I think I'd reverse Malak and Rafa, mainly because Reis is just a better Rafa and being redundant and inferior means she basically never has a spot on the team.

I've thinking about exactly why I rank certain characters higher, and I realized that part of it is because I've been banging around in the DD a lot recently, and it feels like everything down there is immune to everything. That might explain why I struggle with Beowulf. Similarly, that almost completely neuters Mustadio, who I like loading down with eng-rifle, thief hat, secret clothes, sprint shoes. If you can use his skills, he's getting a lot of turns to spread disables around the map, but if there's no reason to fire his gun, he just turns into a fast chemist.

[Augestein]

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Marche's equips are AWESOME. Hats are basically better than helmets all of the time. Torso armour is pretty solid all around, with the carbini mail being a pretty strong damn good piece of equipment. Nagarock/Eschut2/thief hat/carabini mail is a very good gear setup that not many people can use, and none can use well except Marche. His sprite is total garbage, though. Literally the only downside to using him.

Yeah, they are pretty nice. You can do some pretty nice things with him as a result, but I'd be lying if I said that it isn't weird. No one else but the OK and Ramza do weird stuff like really.

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Ramza having a rez in his native class is a big deal. I often think the worst thing about specials is that their secondary typically must be something with a rez.

Not really. They don't have to have revive skills. Even if they do, Wish easily the worst of the revival skills overall, and any generic has access to it as well. I'll grant we're talking about specials, but it makes it less cool when any unit you could have can do it. What makes Ramza's Squire class good is the fact that it has a little bit of everything and its equipment options. If it didn't have the equipment options, I probably would not use Guts terribly often. But yeah, that IS the worst thing about specials is not having any sort of real versatility with their movesets. Mustadio and Cloud probably have the most unique movesets of them all.

The issue I have with Cloud is that Cloud pretty much always requires Short Charge + Materia Blade. That's a pretty hefty price to pay, and MB becoming forced 2-swords takes him to a level of shit that's extraordinarily limited. That for me puts him as one of the worst specials in the game. Bar none. He's good with ??? and that's about it. Other than that, he's pretty bad. Which is good for the sake of using him that he starts appearing when ??? are more common, it's bad, because for every fight that isn't, he's easily of the worst characters around.

Beowulf just curbstomps anything where enemies aren't immune to everything. 100% instant sleep or confusion is incredible. No need to have someone with Short Charge and manipulate speed to get a turn in and not get midcharge shot, just... Go and screw them over when it's his turn.

Agrias and Worker are my least favorites of the specials. Worker because he's not cool and dislikes buffs (and that is a super sin in my eyes). Agrias because she falls off really hard later in the game IMO. Boco, I forgot about, but even he has like instant confusion or sleep. It's bad too.

OK has super equipment versatility and gives up a moveset for being the best unit with it. That's pretty powerful IMO. Especially since some classes like Ninja, often do the same thing for class perks.

I think the main thing to take from here s that people like Marche and think Malak and Hitoshi are kinda weak.

[Tabeguache]

Does everyone here that loves Beowulf keep him as a sage for the Faith Rod combo? Considering you need your support for two-swords, thus can't equip armor or shields, how do you keep him alive long enough to get a turn?

What do people who like Onion do with her? Cast or stab? I gather white mage has some popularity, but then that's all she can do, and there are lots of other characters who carry white mage very well as a secondary; that's what I usually do with Reis, who, along with equip-armor, becomes even more of a powerhouse.

As for Onion going physical, if you give her Jav2 and go with that cheese, your secondary skill is free for whatever else you want. Item, punch-art, steal, w/e. She's a great caster, but then you're doing exactly 1 thing. If you let her stab people, she is more versatile.

Also, y'all seem to be forgetting that Worker can use items, that's good stuff. He also can tag along next to people without provoking AOE's from the enemy and guaranteeing them double-kills because everything slides off of him. That, and letting him tank a bunch of hits/turns from multiple enemies, only to full-heal back to 999 is a great way to waste enemy turns.

[Davzz]

I can't post long posts, so perhaps some mod will edit this post with the text.

http://pastebin.com/qhmxcJMb

[quadpolar]

Davzz, on 30 January 2017 - 03:11 AM, said:

Guts would really have been much better if Ramza kept either of Accumulate, Scream or Beat Down from Vanilla or the older versions. He really is kinda mostly worse Marche and I think his best move is Yell, whose charge times kill it at level 99.

Agreed. Raising your PA isn't really that broken, although it is much more useful in the first two chapters because even a couple of PA points make a huge difference and everything is moving much slower so you can safely raise them. And it would be very easy to make Accumulate/Scream (without +1 Speed, that's always broken) available at the beginning of chapter 3/4.

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I have no idea how you guys manage to make Worker 8 tank the majority of attacks - enemies normally target the "easiest" unit to kill by their standards, which means the other 4 units of your party must basically be much tankier than W8 is to achieve that.

On some large maps it's possible to split the enemies into groups, although ironically Worker 8 is really slow and unable to be hasted, which makes it harder to get him out far enough, with maybe a couple of exceptions like the Orbonne Divine Knight battle before Rofel.

Unrelated rant about 1.3 after playing Monster Tactics: I was just thinking about how it really wouldn't be broken to have Teleport 2 available with 1.3's current balance. There could be some interesting strategies that use the possibility of splitting enemies into groups. It would make almost no difference to have access to Teleport 2 because in the late game everyone can reach anything anyway. IMO the largest flaw in 1.3 is that Arch too often implemented "balance" by taking out a ton of interesting options because they were "too good", which often means better than something else (and sadly, being a valid strategy), instead of breaking the game, which should be the real consideration. Exceptions are combos like Golem+Hamedo which break every battle, instead of being a solution for a particular problem which has to be identified and assessed first.

The best special character is obviously Mustadio, because you need him to be able to recruit the other ones.

[Davzz]

Yeah - as seen with Malak, sometimes "too good" is a relative state sending them from OU to the bottom.

Forgot another OK build - 2 Tonberry Knives. Proc KO instead of focusing on raw damage, use your sonic speed to support.

[Augestein]

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Agreed. Raising your PA isn't really that broken, although it is much more useful in the first two chapters because even a couple of PA points make a huge difference and everything is moving much slower so you can safely raise them. And it would be very easy to make Accumulate/Scream (without +1 Speed, that's always broken) available at the beginning of chapter 3/4.

Yeah, I'm in agreement as well on this. As it stands, I find Guts kind of lackluster, and I definitely would have taken Scream without +1 speed over Heretic Strike. Heretic Strike is basically a garbage dispel (and I say that because it doesn't always remove buffs). Its damage is so lackluster that there are better moves you can use, and by the end, as long as you have about 5-6 movement, you're fine.

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Unrelated rant about 1.3 after playing Monster Tactics: I was just thinking about how it really wouldn't be broken to have Teleport 2 available with 1.3's current balance. There could be some interesting strategies that use the possibility of splitting enemies into groups. It would make almost no difference to have access to Teleport 2 because in the late game everyone can reach anything anyway. IMO the largest flaw in 1.3 is that Arch too often implemented "balance" by taking out a ton of interesting options because they were "too good", which often means better than something else (and sadly, being a valid strategy), instead of breaking the game, which should be the real consideration. Exceptions are combos like Golem+Hamedo which break every battle, instead of being a solution for a particular problem which has to be identified and assessed first.

Late 1.3 reminds me a lot of Disagea 3 tbh. Whoever attacks first is in a better position. Which is why a lot of Reraise and Hamedo abuse happens. Because the name of the game is to absolutely not let the enemy attack you, and often times, Arch changed things to counter what people would use as strategies -- ie, Guns no longer being the elemental kind, which means that you cannot do nifty tricks like equipping an ice shield + Maintenance + Don't Act / Don't Move (back when he had that) to prevent him from doing anything short of status effects and item. Teleport 2 probably wouldn't have made a huge difference with how 1.3 is anyways, because the only time I've done super out of range movements, it's been like... The first turns.

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The best special character is obviously Mustadio, because you need him to be able to recruit the other ones.

To be honest, if he hadn't lost those breaks and that speed multiplier, I'd honestly say he was a little bit better.

@Davzz, that's pretty much how I feel about most specials in the game. Also, the reason I don't like Agrias is because the best thing you can do to optimize her attack is to make her a knight really. Even with female equips, it doesn't make up for the lack of clothes, and Agrias isn't exactly fast. I guess I could put concentrate on her, but then I need to end fights faster by using Lighting Stab or Split Punch as Stasis Sword doesn't do more damage, and several things out damage Crush Punch.

[quadpolar]

Augestein, on 30 January 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

Late 1.3 reminds me a lot of Disagea 3 tbh. Whoever attacks first is in a better position. Which is why a lot of Reraise and Hamedo abuse happens. Because the name of the game is to absolutely not let the enemy attack you, and often times, Arch changed things to counter what people would use as strategies -- ie, Guns no longer being the elemental kind, which means that you cannot do nifty tricks like equipping an ice shield + Maintenance + Don't Act / Don't Move (back when he had that) to prevent him from doing anything short of status effects and item. Teleport 2 probably wouldn't have made a huge difference with how 1.3 is anyways, because the only time I've done super out of range movements, it's been like... The first turns.

Yep, and every time you try to make an unconventional strategy work and take it to its logical conclusion it almost always fails after basic considerations like enemies doing too much damage/having too many threats and your units having to take on too many roles. There was a point in a Deep Dungeon battle where after a lot of testing my only option was to add a step where I had to cast a slow Meteor on my own units who couldn't move out of its range in time to gain a few extra turns. Or in another battle I had to use two units with petrify to block the enemies and then there's one enemy who of course has Teleport and like 5 different lethal statuses and high damage output+status immunity. And if you try to spice things up a bit with challenges and restrictions you effectively create problems that you can't solve because the available tools you have are so limited, so you eventually reach absurd scenarios where it quickly becomes like cooking with a flame thrower and a hammer.

[Augestein]

quadpolar, on 30 January 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

Yep, and every time you try to make an unconventional strategy work and take it to its logical conclusion it almost always fails after basic considerations like enemies doing too much damage/having too many threats and your units having to take on too many roles. There was a point in a Deep Dungeon battle where after a lot of testing my only option was to add a step where I had to cast a slow Meteor on my own units who couldn't move out of its range in time to gain a few extra turns. Or in another battle I had to use two units with petrify to block the enemies and then there's one enemy who of course has Teleport and like 5 different lethal statuses and high damage output+status immunity. And if you try to spice things up a bit with challenges and restrictions you effectively create problems that you can't solve because the available tools you have are so limited, so you eventually reach absurd scenarios where it quickly becomes like cooking with a flame thrower and a hammer.

It's the reason in my topic I really wanted chapter 4 to be rethought about and discussed honestly. Because before that, it seems to really start encouraging variety and weird setups for Ch.2 and 3. Those chapters are just... Godlike. You get all sorts of weird stuff that's oddly effective.

[Tabeguache]

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...it seems to really start encouraging variety and weird setups for Ch.2 and 3. Those chapters are just... Godlike. You get all sorts of weird stuff that's oddly effective.

Agreed. The big draw of 1.3 for me is the mental puzzle of experimenting with my team and honing my setups. There's a sweet spot after the game gets going, and before everything has 999 and is immune to everything when the game provides an awesome experience of being rewarded for trying new things.

That wonderful phase dies when things get "harder" in ch.4. However, what seems to actually be happening is that battles just get more strict, not actually harder. The number of viable solutions to each fight's "problem" drop dramatically, but the difficulty of playing out a fight using one of the limited "solutions" isn't actually that much more difficult to play than things were during earlier chapters.

EDIT: I'm not sure if this proves or refutes my point, but I just beat the ??? goblin fight in DD by putting them all to sleep, waking one up at a time, poisoning it, and then chasing it around with Mustadio arm-aiming it until it died from poison. That took over an hour and didn't exactly feel fun or clever. It just felt like the only thing I could do to them, really. Better than losing, I guess.

EDIT 2: Just did more or less the same thing to the ??? skeletons in Delta. Kept haste on Mustadio, Chained arm-aims, Cloud gnaws them down with climhazzard.

This post has been edited by Tabeguache: 31 January 2017 - 11:52 AM