[MLGA]

Word up,

Didn't see a generic feedback thread (didn't look very thoroughly), so here's some generic feedback in a new thread.

Pardon any deficient structure--I just jotted things down in a notepad as I thought of them.
I played fully on 1.8.2.


POSSIBLE BUG
-the pug in the chest trap in 'Lost Castle' cave (the one that held the Graedus knife in vanilla) casts Stepmine with no result graphical/damage result--easy fight


LOOSE ENDS
-possible to kill Gau in post-battle meet-ups (at least in the very first meet-up, before he joins; haven't tried meet-ups where he is returning after a Leap) by using Suplex--it causes Muddle and allows a follow-up hit/Suplex and kill... sure, trivial to those who have played vanilla and know what's what, but still seems sloppy--hopefully there is an easy fix


GRIPES
-right away I disliked the removal of 'active' game-play but I quickly realized that the changes to the ATB system or whatever it's called necessitates this in order to truly make the difference in speeds of fast/slow characters DO something (as opposed to the ATB bar filling-up while I am in some menu making a selection), so I probably wrote this note in the wrong section but cut/paste is hard

-the Phalanges accompanying Kafka [sic] at the Sealed Gate seemed a little too strong (all characters at level 15) for such a surprising change from the original (certainly didn't expect it); sure, dying and gaining the understanding that this new obstacle exists is fine, but certainly annoying if you bring an inefficient party and have to back-track and re-group purely for this fight... resorted to looking-up a let's-play to see this fight only to learn that BioBlast is over-powered here (whereas I never bought BioBlast in any vanilla playthrough 'cause didn't like it's flavour... on a side note, to any who would say "well it's your fault you didn't buy (a) thing", it seems invalid to expect any given thing to be purchased just because it is purchasable)

-Atma on Floating Continent seemed too severe... first attempt with all characters at level 18 (Gau for 'Harvester' heal, Setzer for 'Mugu' heal/barbar, Shadow of course.... and Cyan, I think); quickly the fight seemed lost, so I abused save states to ensure I hit a barbar Slots every time, and with five (I think it was five... more than three, at the least) lucky rolls of Ragnarok's 9999 damage he finally fell; I knew that was a stupid victory (also, I was afraid I somehow bugged my file after a prolonged fight with severe graphical glitching caused by several Palidor barbars), so I reset, leaped-off and ground-up to level 25 all 'round; even at level 25 (Gau, Terra, Celes, Shadow), the fight was tough (but fair, I guess), but at this stage the point I make revolves around the World of Ruin... at level 25, everything in the World of Ruin which directly involved getting all 12 (important) characters back (i.e., excluding dragons) was a complete breeze compared to Atma... most difficult fight since Atma has been Umaro, and that was after failing at level 25 and grinding again to 30 all 'round

-the equipped-Esper bonuses are a fun bonus, but I find it annoying to have to double-check what the in-battle Esper-casts do (no, I don't frigging remember) now that those text strings have been replaced

-restructuring the Bum Rush Blitz input was v annoying for me: I play solely on my phone, and it would be a breeze to input the normal thing

-correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as if Esper Level points are awarded as x amount of points per character y with Esper equipped BUT only for those characters with Esper Level under 25... this is annoying in the case where, when grinding to get all characters to maximum Esper Level, and say you have gotten everyone up but one, the amount of fighting required to get this one character's EL up to 25 is now sssso much more than any of the previous characters (ie, in a party of 4 with all ELs under 25, EL points earned are x*4y whereas in a party of 4 with only one EL under 25, EL points earned are x*y)


THANNNNK YOU FOR THIS
-removal of the all-caps name BANON
-reduction in available Rages and Lores... but I still don't use Lore for anything but Grand Train
-the flight from the Floating Continent was actually fun--thanks, Shock
-was delighted to see the auto-pilot kick-in for finding Bahaumut
-your brave, new Relm has really made lolis great again
-pretty much everything else


WISHLIST
-still sad Runic is just about useless (knowing which enemies cast Esper-linked/Runicable spells versus animal magic and getting Celes in those specific fights does not count as useful); how about we just agree to let Celes keep Shock in teh WoR ;D




This is quite disorganized... again, apologies. Adding this after finishing the game:

CHARACTERS/LEVEL NOTES
-levels at certain stages of the game (feel free to note if I seem under/over-levelled at any specific point)... note, I usually run from just about every random encounter after the Battle of Narshe, so there was no levelling-up between what I mention, below:
-probably a max level of 11 after Battle of Narshe
-up to now, not much to say about the characters (as, obviously, I don't get to pick & choose, yet); they all seem useful

-levelled all characters to 15 to complete Zozo
-unlike vanilla, I did not loathe having Locke in my party anymore due to easily-accessed dual-wield-capable throwing weapons

-after having a tough time with Dadaluma, levelled all characters to 20 before departing for the Opera and Vector
-level 20 may seem high, but after loathing the Magitek facility in every vanilla run and experience the more difficult challenges so far, I felt it better to level-up beforehand rather than confirming I am under-levelled while already landed on the southern continent

-levelled all characters to 25 before jumping onto the Floating Continent
-woops, seemed I may have levelled too far once I see Terra gain access to 3rd degree burns in the WoB... whatever, as I noted above, I still had a difficult time with Atma
-still not really any complaints about the characters, but it's obvious to me now that Gau is very important to how I roll--non-MP HP/status heal with Harvester Rage? yas, pls

-after retrieving most characters at level 25, got bashed-in by Umaro (killed him, but with ALL of my high-end healing items used, so I reset and levelled all characters (minus Umaro and Gogo) to level 30 before trying for Umaro again
-EL levels at this points were maybe around 15 or so (?; I don't remember)

-killed all the 5 non-tower-dwelling dragons at level 30
-Gau is at this point my most important character and is in any party selection
-Strago generally my strongest weapon and chosen much more so than vanilla
-really enjoying Stamina Cyan and Dragon--he was a main damage dealer in many fights while getting characters back
-Sabin more and more being left behind much more so than vanilla; Chakra seems under-powered/not worth it--after full stamina dedication and EL 25 I am seeing 75ish MP per character per cast, which, say, for Strago and Grand Train necessitates dedicated Chakraing; Mantra seems under-powered but only for the reason that Sabin doesn't benefit from it (after reading some general EL overviews and reading that a pure-Stamina Sabin gets """""beefy""""" Regen ticks I was quite dissapointed to see this means a difference of maybe 50% from any other end-game character)
-love Mog and teh Moogle Charm at this point; Edgar Schmedgar--his jump is too slow in comparison to Mog and as above Mana Battery seems under-powered (if I have to use it every round to fill-up 75ish MP, why am I not simply using an MP item from some other character and not missing Edgar's damage?)

-used what I read from BTB in other posts and decided not to "over-level" before trying Kafka--levelled all characters to 35 (with the exception of a few levels here and there on some characters as I needed their power to get through levelling the last few... loading ye olde file, it seems the average is 36.7)
-wtf, I love Shadow now--so fffast, so Throw; easily my new favourite character... but, still, I am really tempted to let Shadow die on the Floating Continent, this time, to get dat sweet, sweet Doge-protected Relm
-(Stamina) Sabin is just trash to me at this point--he was not invited to Kafka's party... he will be converted to Vigor next playthrough
-still pleasantly surprised with Vigor Locke at this point, but it seemed painfully obvious that there is zero reason to push him to the front row to use the higher-end cutting weapons when he can chill in the back with the high-powered throwables (especially considering there's a large amount of floating enemies that are weak to Wing Edge, and that you can win a second Wing Edge)... this said, I plan on converting him to a healer in teh next playthrough and pushing Setzer in the opposite direction, from healer to fighter
-the above leads me to note that it seems to me that the initial heal from RegenX is overpowered

[BTB]

If you were actually running 1.8.2 and not 1.8.4, then the esper bonuses didn't work at all

[MLGA]

"were actually"

My apologies for not logging this as my homepage... upgrading, now.

[BTB]

A few other things...

25 is the maximum EL. You stop gaining them after that.

Runic is sort of in the same boat as Rage - immensely (albeit situationally) powerful if used wisely, but most players won't bother.

You're much more liable to overlevel in this game than underlevel. The only people I typically call underleveled are the people who do it deliberately.

Possibly a few other things, but I'm very tired so I am going to le bed.

[Mishrak]

I'm glad you enjoyed the game!

Just a few comments:

Unless you run from battles, "grind moar levels" is almost never the right solution when you hit a wall. That you were still struggling against yeti tells me you were failing to see he was punching your eyeballs out or that he was using an ice attack. I'm glad you decided to redo Atma without abusing save states. Nothing in the game is anywhere near that difficult if you observe and follow its rules.

Runic is very powerful the entire game.

Good MP healing items are rare and not purchasable. 75 mp party wide is really strong. Also Strago has osmose so he can heal his own mp.

I would encourage you to read through the FAQ if you decide to play again and try to adjust your play style away from vanilla. It's a much more rewarding game when you do that.

[Kain_Stryder]

- Expecting a fix to the "attack Gau on Veldt" is silly, because you don't ever want to attack him. Should "gripe" that attacking Whelk's shell game overs you, too, then.

- The Phalanx that join Kefka are a joke. If you're expecting to steam roll the game and mash the A Button to victory, learn what spells do, as well as Safe/Shell, even back row for +50% damage reduction across the board and what things ignore row for damage.

- Bio Blaster is an AoE Poison attack, and humans are weak to it. It's really your fault for not buying it or making the most out of things or a character in general, so trying to downplay cause you "didn't like it" when it's a godly tool shows you don't understand a character's strengths or when things should be used. Again, mash A. While it's not needed for the fight, early on for certain content it makes thing a joke, especially the Narshe battles.

- Holy. Fucking. Shit. You save scummed five (5) Ragnaroks for Atmaweapon... this clearly shows you don't understand a game's engine or what spells and characters can do. Dispel. Slow. Safe. Shell. Haste. Regen. Rerise. For reference, he's beatable on LLG at level 3, without save scumming.

- Blitz inputs can be done without diagonal, always has been this way. So if Aurabolt is Down-Down Forward-Forward, doing Down Down Forward will work too. Never need to do diagonal.

- Runic is not worthless. Again everything can be summed up as "learn the game" and not just level up to solve your issues. Laziness is not an excuse and using Lore for 1 spell also shows you enjoy 1 trick ponies and if it doesn't work, it should be fixed or is worthless.

- Umaro example of how you don't understand the game= Use Ice-absorb or null equipment. There goes his Blizzard spell. Shell also if this fails. Back row, too. Physicals? Smoke Bombs are 100% guarantee or max out evasion if you don't want Shadow or Gogo in the fight.

[arcenierin]

Thank you for taking the time to provide a write-up of your experiences. Please don't let some of these replies dissuade yourself (or anyone who is reading this post who might be interested in providing similar feedback) from providing commentary in the future!

[thzfunnymzn]

You were overleveled, but that's perfectly fine for a first playthrough.

You killed Gau! lul. Poor Gau.

Hmm...was my guides one of the ones that said stam Sabin's regen ticks were beefy? If so, my bad. I have just as many issues with stam Sabin. Glad you'll be using vig Sabin next time.

Also, the BioBlaster dominates the WoB.

[BTB]

"Beefy regen ticks" is one of Nakar's terms

[Julford]

A big piece of advice to remember is that every boss battle from Zozo onwards has a gimmick to exploit. Dadaluma has a complex counter-attacking script, for example, while Umaro has nothing but strong physicals and an ice-based attack at a point in the game you're likely to have gear that shuts those things down. Don't be afraid to lose a fight and change gear loadouts to better handle specific attacks, there's very little in the game that can't be mitigated in some way with equipment/party changes.

Grinding is perfectly fine too, though as you noted it doesn't do nearly enough for certain fights. Atma especially is one of the worst offenders of "Learn his script or die", as he uses a lot of attacks that will OHKO or otherwise incapacitate at least one teammate. He also has an attack that is flat damage multiplied by your level, and you won't even start outpacing its' growth until level 26.

[MLGA]

Ohh, snap--double-post 'cause quote limit.

BTB, on 15 February 2017 - 11:07 PM, said:

25 is the maximum EL. You stop gaining them after that.

Understood, but I was trying to describe it seemed that the rate of learning seemed weird. Say, if I had a party of four, all of whom were Esper-equipped and under EL 25, they all learned at a rate of 100%. When I was left levelling-up the last character in a party of 4 (three of them already maxed at EL 25), the learning rate seemed at 25%. I may just be completely wrong on the numbers I thought I was seeing, but if I wasn't it seems strange that this last character would take four times as many fights to reach the same EL as the others.

BTB, on 15 February 2017 - 11:07 PM, said:

Runic is sort of in the same boat as Rage - immensely (albeit situationally) powerful if used wisely, but most players won't bother.

I think rather Runic is the trailing dingy to Rage's boat. Situational in that you're only going to use that dingy for two things--getting to and from the anchored boat whereas the boat can go just about anywhere and with more ease.

Kain_Stryder, on 16 February 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Expecting a fix to the "attack Gau on Veldt" is silly, because you don't ever want to attack him. Should "gripe" that attacking Whelk's shell game overs you, too, then.

I think you missed the point... Not every person playing this mod has necessarily played the game before, perhaps they do not even have a firm grasp of English--it seemed sloppy so I mentioned it.

Kain_Stryder, on 16 February 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

The Phalanx that join Kefka are a joke. If you're expecting to steam roll the game and mash the A Button to victory, learn what spells do, as well as Safe/Shell, even back row for +50% damage reduction across the board and what things ignore row for damage.

I am aware of these things. I noted they seemed strong at level 15, but maybe I should make this clearer--in comparison to the ramp-up of difficulty thus far in the game, the Phalanges at the Sealed Gate seemed at the time a noticeable step-up. If instead you meant to say, "Ahh, this is a key stage in the game where making use of some of the finer mechanical nuances really becomes critical for advancement," I forgive you.

Kain_Stryder, on 16 February 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Holy. Fucking. Shit. You save scummed five (5) Ragnaroks for Atmaweapon... this clearly shows you don't understand a game's engine or what spells and characters can do. Dispel. Slow. Safe. Shell. Haste. Regen. Rerise. For reference, he's beatable on LLG at level 3, without save scumming.

Are you always this hostile? I 'load(ed) save file' in that fight because it was still a fun experience--pushing what I knew was a lost fight into the ground and seeing if it could be 'saved.' Upset, Mr Thou?

Kain_Stryder, on 16 February 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Blitz inputs can be done without diagonal, always has been this way. So if Aurabolt is Down-Down Forward-Forward, doing Down Down Forward will work too. Never need to do diagonal.

Again, you missed the point--a full rotation of the pad can be completed without diagonals, but a new required input that doesn't use diagonals cannot transmute back to a full rotation. I was merely saying I preferred performing the full rotation (especially because it is even easier on a phone's touchscreen than a controller).

Kain_Stryder, on 16 February 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Umaro example of how you don't understand the game= Use Ice-absorb or null equipment. There goes his Blizzard spell. Shell also if this fails. Back row, too. Physicals? Smoke Bombs are 100% guarantee or max out evasion if you don't want Shadow or Gogo in the fight.

FYI, Blizzard was never an issue--never stated as such. I did not consider Smoke Bombs because I did not have Shadow, yet.
Not specifically related to this point (because it was actually helpful toward the end), but even if I didn't understand any of this, why you would choose such an overall aggressive stance? Take a step back and think about that (in this and other situations outside of your Internet Shogunate). Should the mod-makers think that my understanding and use (key distinction) of the finer game mechanics do not merit consideration of this feedback as valid for making any changes, that is solely on them.

Kain_Stryder, on 16 February 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

Bio Blaster is an AoE Poison attack, and humans are weak to it. It's really your fault for not buying it or making the most out of things or a character in general, so trying to downplay cause you "didn't like it" when it's a godly tool shows you don't understand a character's strengths or when things should be used. Again, mash A.

Right--I read that about the Bioblast extra damage on humans but forgot. Is it my fault in forgetting this? Yes. But, should you develop your own mod at some time down the road, remember this point when your download hits on versions 2.0 and above go down rather than up:
Your point of view here is that I must conform to a specific style in order to succeed. That I chose to use Edgar as soon as possible for Jumping rather than Tools is a stylistic choice, and your reply is "that's wrong, idiot." Nice. Granted, some style choices I made could be changed in order to alter the tone of this feedback, but so could your style of response. Rekt.

[MLGA]

Mishrak, on 16 February 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

I would encourage you to read through the FAQ if you decide to play again and try to adjust your play style away from vanilla.
Unless you run from battles, "grind moar levels" is almost never the right solution when you hit a wall. That you were still struggling against yeti tells me you were failing to see he was punching your eyeballs out or that he was using an ice attack.

Point taken. I read through the FAQ and a few nice threads here beforehand, but... Umaro's gotta Umar. Punching was the problem rather than being cold, but I also did not suspect Dispel would be of use until reading some more, today...

Mishrak, on 16 February 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

Runic is very powerful the entire game.

After choosing to level Celes with Mag/Spd, it felt like a waste to use Runic (where available). Again, there are fights it works quite well, but it felt like there were just so few of them--many more non-Runicable attacks. Again, I'll keep a closer eye this playthrough to see how that feeling pans-out.

arcenierin, on 16 February 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

Thank you for taking the time to provide a write-up of your experiences.

My pleasure, good sir.

thzfunnymzn, on 16 February 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

You were overleveled, but that's perfectly fine for a first playthrough.

Was there any particular point I mentioned where it appears I "should" cut back in levels?--or just overall?

thzfunnymzn, on 16 February 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

You killed Gau! lul. Poor Gau.

He deserved it. Him and that little boy of his... Wait--

thzfunnymzn, on 16 February 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Also, the BioBlaster dominates the WoB.

I don't like green.
Sorry.
Sorry for disappointing everyone about not liking green.

Julford, on 16 February 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

Umaro has nothing but strong physicals and an ice-based attack at a point in the game you're likely to have gear that shuts those things down. Don't be afraid to lose a fight and change gear loadouts to better handle specific attacks, there's very little in the game that can't be mitigated in some way with equipment/party changes.

Hmm, yes--first attempt was only after getting (Celes) Sabin, Edgar, Gau, Mog & Terra, so it seems maybe a little gear-early. This is a force of habit from vanilla, foraging into Narshe for teh Muggle [sic] Charm--I knew it was somehow different in the mod, but figured after getting it I may as well get Tritoch and Umaro. I'll try to focus more on evasion and damage reduction this time.

Julford, on 16 February 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

[Atma] also has an attack that is flat damage multiplied by your level, and you won't even start outpacing its' growth until level 26.

Flarestar I believe, and yes there was invariably a moment that would be cast (didn't seem a counter) and I was stopped shortly afterward on the initial attempts.




Lastly, I'll note that in this new playthrough I will not be running from random encounters (as opposed to running from them all after Narshe and then finding a nice, quiet spot to grind). This should surely even out some of the corners of my future feedback.

Double lastly, because perhaps some may be curious, my levelling spot for anything after Narshe but before WoR was the Kohlingen desert. And, oddly, there again from WoR until I acquired all characters. Then, of course, off to dino land.

Triple lastly because that jogged my memory, unlike most things dino land now seems easier than vanilla. Both Meteo replacing Meteor and Meteor replacing Ultima felt like downgrades--Meteo damage does not seem as harsh as Meteor was (partly because of magic evasion but also base damage); and without the KO threat of Ultima I no longer feared the Brachosaur (forgot his new name) encounters.



Thanks for the feedback.

[thzfunnymzn]

BTB, on 16 February 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

"Beefy regen ticks" is one of Nakar's terms

I've disagreed with Nakar before. : p

MLGA, on 16 February 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

I think rather Runic is the trailing dingy to Rage's boat. Situational in that you're only going to use that dingy for two things--getting to and from the anchored boat whereas the boat can go just about anywhere and with more ease.

I love this analogy.

MLGA, on 16 February 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Was there any particular point I mentioned where it appears I "should" cut back in levels?--or just overall?

Seems like overall. IIRC, the level curve is closer to

Dadaluma: ~10
Magitek Factory: ~15
Floating Continent: ~20
Kefka's Tower: ~30

I've played this hack 20 times, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Even still, 20 in the Magitek Factory and 25 for Atma was definitely overleveled.

MLGA, on 16 February 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

I don't like green.
Sorry.
Sorry for disappointing everyone about not liking green.

Hey, that's perfectly fine. : p BioBlaster is an overpowered little thing early on, you don't have to like it.

MLGA, on 16 February 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Triple lastly because that jogged my memory, unlike most things dino land now seems easier than vanilla. Both Meteo replacing Meteor and Meteor replacing Ultima felt like downgrades--Meteo damage does not seem as harsh as Meteor was (partly because of magic evasion but also base damage); and without the KO threat of Ultima I no longer feared the Brachosaur (forgot his new name) encounters.

Meteo is stronger than Meteor; it just has a poor hit rate. The Tyranos may be weaker than vanilla though.

Dino Forest is really a grinding spot. We don't need random Brachosaurs having more power than the final boss.

[Lockirby2]

You probably Muted Master T.

I don't think many people are going to fail to figure out what's supposed to happen with Gau because you can kill him with Suplex.

I agree with Funny that leveling is not very helpful against Atma Weapon. I won't try to leave a handy summary of what levels are expected where because the EXP curve has changed since the last time I played.

I personally find it more fun to adopt a policy of "Never run, never grind", although it's better suited for some RPGs than others. It makes dungeons more meaningful by forcing you to ration your resources and have to avoid mistakes that result in death. When you are grinding you always have a save point/Inn nearby, so you don't really get that. The exception for BNW is generally experimenting with builds in controlled conditions (particularly if you are writing a build guide or something). If you do that, you will always be around the right level in BNW. Because of this, I'm interested in hearing if your second playthrough ends up being more interesting.

I don't think either the Phalanx or Atma need nerfing. The Bio Blaster isn't really required for the former. I also think it is reasonable to consider the Bio Blaster as an option at that point. Even if you want to build Edgar as a Dragoon, it's fair to expect the player to change strats when their usual strat isn't going to work well.

[MLGA]

thzfunnymzn, on 16 February 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

20 in the Magitek Factory and 25 for Atma was definitely overleveled.

Seems so--now at average 12.3 entering Zozo.

Lockirby2, on 16 February 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

You probably Muted Master T.

Simple enough, but really unsure from where that cast or proc would have come. I forget the last two characters in my party at the time, so, that's that.

Lockirby2, on 16 February 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

"Never run, never grind" [...] makes dungeons more meaningful by forcing you to ration your resources and have to avoid mistakes that result in death.

Can be kinda tricky in a punishing first-playthrough. :>

Lockirby2, on 16 February 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

it's fair to expect the player to change strats when their usual strat isn't going to work well.

Fine. :<

[BTB]

MLGA, on 16 February 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

Was there any particular point I mentioned where it appears I "should" cut back in levels?--or just overall?

So, some general benchmarks of expected levels...

Dadaluma - 12
Cranes - 15-18
Atma Weapon - 18-21
Kefka's Tower (going in) - 28-32
Endgame - 32-35

So you were overleveled for most of the game, basically.

[ff6shadow]

My personal experiences lines up with BTB's benchmarks, outside of the fact that Locke always seems to be pushing 22 by the time I get to the Floating Continent. But I can blame that on a 'no run' policy and him being in the party nearly continuously after Narshe.