Insane Difficulty: Brave New World 1.7.4 is now available! - Insane Difficulty

Been waiting patiently to check this out! I love the new Stamina changes, I have one suggestion however.

Sabin, Cyan and Setzer are examples of characters with very well balanced Stamina builds. Stamina augments Sabin's healing Blitz at the expense of some offense, Cyan becomes a tank with 2 reliable sword techs boosted by Stamina and Setzer can utilize a powerful and reliable GP Toss along with a powerful Regen and RegenX.

Now, imagine Mantra/Chakra, Dragon/Eclipse and GP Toss were all removed from the hack entirely. Would you ever consider doing a Stamina focused build on Sabin, Cyan or Setzer? You would have increased status resistance/Mag defense/Regen ticks still, but would those benefits be worth the lack of Stamina based actions in battle, especially considering they have excellent Vigor and Magic options and can boost those stats. It's probably safe to say most players would not consider building Stamina if this was the case on these characters.


Case in point, Strago and Relm. The one thing I was hoping for in this update was that these two would get new toys to play with for a Stamina build. I'll start with Relm. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Sketch is not stamina based currently, and that was Warring Triad who did that? I examined the Read me and didn't see anything about it. Like the example above, a Stamina based Relm certainly isn't a bad character, she gets the intrinsic Stamina benefits and like Setzer, has Regen X. But unlike him, she doesn't have a powerful offensive stamina option in GP Toss. For me, using a Stamina Relm is like playing Stamina Setzer without GP Toss, you could do it, but why would you except for a challenge? A Zoneseek/Ifrit build provides Relm a surplus MP, powerful flares/meteors and fast turns. The Stamina build will give you noticeably weaker flares/meteors and presumably lower speed/mana depending on your ifrit or Bahamut investment. Why would you consider doing that, especially when Regen X is mainly used for AoE regen and the heal is mostly a bonus perk? Where's her "GP Toss", the incentive to utilize a Stamina focus build?

I'd imagine the easiest way to give her a "GP Toss" is making Sketch based off her Stamina. Although it's gimmicky and oftentimes unreliable, it would help at least justify a heavy Starlet build.


Likewise, there is Strago. His entire repertoire of spells and lores contains not a single spell that uses Stamina over Magic. Holy wind, unlike Mantra, is based ENTIRELY on HP, not Stamina. A Magic focused Strago can provide Holy Winds heals to the team nearly as well as a Stamina focused Strago, just having lower regen ticks. Am I missing something? It seems like doing an Odin/Carbuncle build is akin to building Kirin Cyan minus the Dragon and Eclipse. Why would I not build Shiva/Zoneseek, give Strago a MASSIVE magic boost, especially with X-Magic and Black Omen, while losing very little in his healing and support options?


A possible solution is making the new spell "Dark" or 1 or 2 of his Lores Stamina based. Blaze and Aquarake or Tsunami seems like good options as it would provide a single target status setting move and a AoE move based off Stamina for Strago use. It is very odd that Strago has two Stamina boosting espers but not a single spell that uses Stamina in it's formula


On a smaller note, is Edgar. Edgar has the Unicorn esper, which is of little consequence to him build wise since he can go physical dragoon/tool user or Magic Healer. But I was thinking, what if Noiseblaster also did damage based off Edgar's Stamina stat? Noiseblaster loses usefulness typically by the end of WoB but giving a Stamina damage component may give it more utility all game and provide an incentive for a Unicorn Edgar build? Just a thought!


Lastly, there is still Rasp set to Terra and Mog (Don't worry, I'm not suggesting moving it, I do not want the ass full of Pipe Wrench). I know that it has a tiny bit of utility as an undead killer, but it's mainly a very situational spell. What if Rasp was given a Stamina HP damage (and maybe the Holy element to emphasis it's use for killing undead?) in addition to the MP damage effect. Gives Stamina Terra another toy and something fun for a Maduin Mog to play around with.


I do understand where BTB is coming from with Stamina. It's a multi-faceted defensive stat that is useful on everyone, and makes up for it's general lack of damage boosting by providing multiple defensive benefits. But I feel that unless a character has specific abilites that utilize the stat, there's little incentive to heavily invest in it, which in my opinion is currently the case with Relm and Strago. From my perspective, they both only have one "viable" build right now.

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While I do agree that a Stamina-based attack would be pretty cool for Strago (Rock Lore Rock Lore Rock Lore Rock Looooooore), Strago is already incredible and Stamina Strago is a mobile Ribbon with the added benefit of being practically immune to magical damage. It doesn't add much to his offensive prowess, but it doesn't need to.

Although Holy Wind should totally go off of the Mantra equation and factor Stamina into account, Holy Wind isn't a spectacular move to begin with, considering Strago's miniscule HP pool.

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Stamina Relm is pretty durable, although it does lose some value depending on and while I personally consider RegenX to be woefully underwhelming, it does its job well enough with a Stam build.

There are a few Sketches that use Stamina-based attacks iirc, but that does require some hunting and experimenting. Sketch is a whole different beast of a topic.

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King Edgar Roni Motherfucking Figaro is an absolute monster and a combined build of Palidor/Unicorn levels will turn him into one of the bulkiest characters on the roster. Hell, his Remedy heals are completely bonkers with Unicorn levels and something like the Nirvana Band, and the Unicorn summon itself is nothing to scoff at. It's a bit more on the defensive side, but never doubt the King.

Noiseblaster dealing Stamina damage would be interesting to say the least, but it definitely isn't needed.

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Rasp is a bit situational, but I feel like its issues have more to do with the high MP pools of mid-to-lategame enemies than the spell itself. Plus I don't think it would be possible to make one part of an HP/MP spell deal Stamina damage while the other deals normal (magic) damage.

That being said, a Rasp that deals Stamina-based MP damage... my curiosity has been piqued.



BNW Stamina is a supportive/defensive stat that happens to have some offensive uses scattered here and there. Too many miscellaneous moves that utilize it could make it look like some sort of mish-mash catch-all stat, and I don't think that's what BNW Stamina is at heart. Personally, I consider Stamina to be the most important stat for most of the characters on the roster without even regarding Mantra/Chakra/Dragon/Eclipse/GPToss. But I'm also kinda on the crazy side.

These are some interesting ideas though, to say the least. Not that I'm a part of the BNW dev crew or something, but I like the ideas all the same.

BTB was toying with the idea of Celes hidden move having both hp/mp damage properties so I think it may be possible.


I'm sure stamina Strago and Relm are good characters like you said but compared to Stamina Sabin, Cyan, Strago,Terra,Gau etc, who have stamina "tools" at their disposal, they're underwhelming.

The Palidor Unicorn is interesting but I'd probably go Palidor/Golem and get some more vigor to go with the HP bulk, cause Edgar has little use of that extra stamina currently.

Complaining about the fact that not all characters have offensive uses for Stamina is like complaining that there is no offensive use for +HP espers. (Note: There is likely some offensive use for more HP somewhere but I don't know of it.)

Stamina is a defensive/support stat. Using it relegates the character into having less effective offensive tools, if any. This is fine. It's not bad to have someone more defensively oriented than offensively. It provides contrast between the characters. If you look at the Stamina builds for the characters that have them, their offensive options are already more limited than other builds.

The stamina you give these characters is to make it so they don't get crushed every time a spell or nasty status effect that you don't equip for looks at them. A "splash stat" if you will.

Nowea, on 15 April 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Exploder. Not that an HP build for Exploder would make sense even if it was possible.

The Omega Weapon/Valiance build for Locke is ENTIRELY based on HP for its offensive output.

I enjoyed giving Edgar about five Unicorns, and then resumed Palidor for swift and vigorous thrusting of the king's spear.

I used to never play Setzer in vanilla, and now stamina Setzer is the best thing ever. When Umaro headbutted him at full speed, he was just like, "lol... slots."

I'm having so much fun with this hack! I didn't like Gau at all in vanilla, either, and now he kills it.

The only character I honestly can't figure out how to build (go figure) is Celes.

Also, if Ultros resets everyone's esper levels for 25,000 GP total, that seems very cheap to me (considering the price of equipment at that stage in the game).

Nowea, on 15 April 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

But why does Sabin Cyan and Setser have stamina based ability skills but Strago and Relm don't, yet they can build heavy stamina. That's the point I'm making, not necessarily offense (Sabins mantra/chakra are defensive). Strago and Relm don't have anything specific that is stamina driven.

RegenX and Relm's secret ability are Stam based, and Strago's Stamina build gives him the HP via Regen ticks to fuel Holy Wind Spam. It's enough for a niche support build, which is what their alternative roles are. They aren't supposed to be offensive.

The difference between Stamina Relm and Stamina Setzer is that Stamina Relm is infinitely faster and much more effective at healing than Setzer is because of it. Her offense also isn't terrible, either.

As for Strago, he has so much to do, support-wise, that it's entirely feasible to go an entire boss fight without him making a single offensive move.

Sabin, Cyan, and Setzer don't have the utility that Relm and Strago do to justify doing a stamina build for them otherwise. Not *every* character with a stamina build needs a stamina-based attack, or else all stamina builds would just be the same. We're trying to differentiate the characters, remember?

Nowea, on 15 April 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

There is >.>

There's also the problem that not all Stamina builds are created equal, just due to the nature of the movesets of people that have them. Stamina Cyan and Locke both have respectable damage while never having to fear death, but have issues providing support to the party (Low healing from Cyan, low max MP from Locke).

Stam Sabin on the other hand provides a ton of party support and will never die, but his damage falls off as early as obtaining the Falcon. Strago/Relm are similar in that respect, they lose a lot of damage from their power builds but become nearly unkillable due to increased Regen ticks, better safety against MDef ignoring attacks, and generally proc'ing less counter-attacks due to not being used offensively. RegenX is also nothing to scoff at, on a heavy Stamina build that can be the only healing spell you even need (I usually run any two of Terra/Setzer/Relm with their stamina builds just to maximize this spell). Strago's Stamina build is a little more questionable, I value regen ticks a lot and never use him offensively (So I see no losses playing him Stamina, but get a large gain in doing so), but if you actually use his offense it can be a big tradeoff for sure.

Gau's a weird one with his Stamina build because he's still made of paper, but it's like that cardboard paper instead so it's a little sturdier. In exchange for increased durability and making some rages more viable, though, he loses a lot of speed which hurts pretty much every rage that didn't care about his stamina, so it's a big trade-off.

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Omega only cares about what percentage of his current health is remaining, but Valiance gets stronger based on what amount of HP is currently missing. Due to how both weapons interact you'll only lose a small amount of damage even at low health, which is nice. I should probably BSerk Locke one of these days, see how well he holds up.

Omega Weapon benefits from high HP because the damage he takes is now less of an overall percentage of his max HP. It's hella value.

BTB, on 15 April 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

True, but I still don't see the value of it because Relm in the Zoneseek/Ifrit can also heal very effectively with Cure 3 and Regen X, maintain that speed, and still present with astounding offense. Likewise, Stamina doesn't affect Strago's support skills at all directly, there are implied benefits from status resistance, regen ticks and magic defense. Strago would get a lot more Holy Wind benefit if Odin offered Hp+30/Stam+1 like Unicorn.

So I just don't see why I should bother, it's a matter of I suppose trading offensive power for the defensive benefits offered by Stamina. Player preference I suppose, but it doesn't fit my style. I like to see value for my Stamina besides just side benefits, even Locke/Edgar get more Stamina benefit because of Omega Weapon, Terra gets all those same Stamina benefits tied in with Morph damage reduction, etc. I like having that extra little character specific Stamina perk, Relm and Strago don't have it and their magic builds can do what the stamina builds similarly.


For the sake of simplicity, I compared the damage of defense ignoring spells from Relm/Strago, not taking into account equipment, assuming a naked Relm and Strago (that sounds soooo wrong) at Level 30, with 20 Esper levels


Strago: Black Omen

Build: 15 Shiva, 5 Zoneseek, +35 magic (my typical heavy magic strago build)-Strago "naked" magic stat at 48+35=83

(48x4) + (30 x 83 x 48/32) = 3927 damage from Black Omen

Build: Carbuncle/Odin 10 and 10 (doesn't affect calculation)

(48x4)+(30x48x48/32)=2352


That's a difference of 1.7 in magnitude


Strago: X Magic Ice 2 Assuming enemy defense is 100

Build: 15 Shiva, 5 Zoneseek, +35 magic (my typical heavy magic strago build)-Strago "naked" magic stat at 48+35=83

(60x4) + (30 x 83 x 60/32) = 4908 x DEFENSE formula ( 255-100)/256 =2972, x 2 for X-Magic= 5944


Strago: X Magic Ice 2, Assuming enemy defense is 100

Build: 10 Carbuncle, 10 Odin

(60x4) + (30 x 48 x 60/32)=2940 x DEFENSE formula (255-100)/256=1781 x 2 for X-Magic=3562


A difference of about 1.67



Relm wouldn't be as dramatic a difference because she only has a Mag+1 esper. But 67-70% damage difference for Strago to me is a LOT to sacrifice for the raw benefits of Stamina and no other perks. One should also remember that these are magic spells, giving them less utility than Sabin/Cyan/Setzer who can spam their Stamina abilities completely for free without needing to refill MP.


To me, this isn't worth that tremendous damage sacrifice but to each their own.

Julford, on 15 April 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

That's the amazing thing about this hack, you never use Strago offensively and I can't imagine myself not doing so. The combination of X-Magic, Shiva Mag+2 and Osmose and now the spell Dark puts him in competition for the strongest magic user in the game. But every character is open to a variety of different play styles (well...maybe not Shadow so much) which is awesome.


How effective is a pure Phoenix Locke using Omega Weapon?

Note that testing on a "naked" Strago isn't entirely fair. If he is wearing Magic boosting equipment (as he probably would), the ratio will improve in favour of the Stamina build by some amount. Probably not a ton, but something.

Lockirby2, on 15 April 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

Even when Strago is naked, he always has a magic rod though

What was this 'earlier-than-intended Bum Rush' bug?

Endarire, on 16 April 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

http://www.insanedif...post__p__138493

blackcat777, on 15 April 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Now there's a gif I'd like to see.

BTB, did you say Crusader is unavailable until after beating the Holy Dragon now?

This post has been edited by thzfunnymzn: 18 April 2016 - 08:28 PM