[Mishrak]

Sorry. I couldn't really respond a lot because I was dealing with PC issues last night.

So a big part of the 1.8.5 update is going to address some of the weaknesses of some of the vigor builds. I don't have specifics yet but I know some defenses are gonna come down. Also on the table are bpow adjustments on weapons. We'll know exactly what when BTB updates us.

As for a tldr summary of my 1.8.x analysis on Celes:

Siren is top tier. She's really fast, which caters to her healing and offensive casts and support.

Crusader is similarly top tier by virtue of being really resistent to magic and status. Shock is strong and she's just as fast as her Siren build. Her magic isn't as potent but her equipment will make sure at least her heal options are great. Also single target remedy becomes a really nice heal. Omega damage is OK but she wants Bserk to be competitive.

Shiva is a great option for maximizing stuff like Holy and Merton but overall is probably slightly worse "dps" than Siren. She will draw less counters.

Vigor is fairly average. Illumina and Excalibur are excellent weapons, and Zantetsuken (esp in 1.8.5) is a good option too. However she'll likely never compete with the pure physical fighters unless you go full Ramuh and ignore hp levels and keep her bserked.


We've been hashing balance stuff out in discord this past week and BTB is working on an update literally as we speak.

Edit:

Merton will always kinda be a niche spell like Quake. Expensive and almost not that useful, but really nice in the right circumstances. They're niche spells by design. I would probably say Celes' ultimate spell is Holy or that she doesn't really have one.

Also mid-game swords are pretty bland. You really need to kill Blue-D or get Locke to open the better options up. The elemental swords are still relevant vs weakness but there is kinda not a lot of middle ground.

[Mishrak]

Hapanpappa, on 23 March 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

However, to some players like me, what ends up mattering most is if it makes logical sense to pick one over the other. It shouldn't feel like I'm forced to sacrifice potential just to realize a character in accordance with their story role or whatever, whether it's because there are other characters who could do the same thing better or because frankly, facing cold numbers, their lategame tools are lagging behind other equivalents. Or in a case like with merton, for example, I'd have to go out of my way to make it even viable at all and even then you, I and everyone else knows there are far better options and it's just not worth it in the long run.

I realized I never actually addressed this.

While nearly all builds are equally viable, not all builds are equal in performance relative to other characters. That's really just the way it is. Some of it is by design, some of it is by technical limitations. But overall every character excels at something that others don't. If you're the type of player who wants the best build for each character than some stuff isn't going to line up. When you build teams to synergize and shore up weaknesses of builds, that's when some of the less obvious builds start to shine.

[thzfunnymzn]

I'm not in chat as often as Mishrak, so he may know something I don't. The only change to weapons I know of is some spear changes.

Hapanpappa, you aren't alone in your feelings. Constant balance work has been a constant work of the community and has been (one of?) the biggest cause for BNW's many updates. Paladin Celes has been one of the hardest issues to work out. Merton is divisive: some think it's all right if niche, some think it's beyond niche into "flavorful, but inferior."

I mostly agree with Mish's analysis of Celes' espers, though I wouldn't rate Crusader so highly. (No, Mish, I don't wish to argue over it right now). Siren is Celes' best esper. Sad, but true right now. Ramuh + Alexander is certainly fun once built though. Go high Alexander if you want to be optimal: fighter Celes can sit out the midgame, and Siren Celes can't commit to super high levels of Alex.

[Hapanpappa]

Really appreciate you guys taking the time to converse.

@Mishrak:

Reading my rant again, I totally get how it may have seemed that my problem was solely about Celes not being the best melee damage dealer or whatever, which was not my intent... I guess my disappointment comes from the fact that I may have expected her to excel in a vigor-focused paladin role because it lines up with who she is in the story, only to find out that she's better at something else entirely and remains below average even with Illumina, no matter how awesome the concept is.

Then add Merton, which I held my breath for for hours on end just to get it, to that list of disappointments and here we are. It's not that I mind niche spells, not at all.. It just came at an inopportune time, like a final nail in the coffin for my favorite character's lategame tools, none of which managed to impress me like I'd hoped. Most other characters seemed to have a serious "wow" factor to them come lategame..

It sounds cool though, if you're looking to revise some vigor stuff, I dunno if it's gonna involve Celes but one can always hope that her swordswoman potential would at least be brought up a notch in relation to the speedy caster route.

You talked about Shock; what does it scale off of anyhow? It was an amazing skill to give her but I only managed to make it work against trash mobs, giving up a relic slot for it ended up being too steep a price to pay in tougher fights, sadly.

@thzfunnymzn

Well I can take some solace from the fact that I'm not the only one who's thought about this. Again, any single thing like Merton alone isn't my problem, that'd be silly... It all just piled up towards the end as her tools kept underwhelming me.

So as things stand now, if one wanted her to be anything but the boring speedy caster, like I do, the best options are to go Ramuh+Alex with more of the latter, or Crusader heavy maybe?

[BTB]

Long story short, there's always going to be an "optimal" build in terms of pure damage output and just trashing through the game as quickly as possible. Such a thing is only a problem if every single player we have is a speedrunner.

Celes in particular is not a DPS unit. She's a support unit who can still deal good damage. She's actually above average in all categories, just not the best in any.

[Julford]

I am extremely partial to giving Celes a heavy Phantom investment, with a strong helping of Alexander when it becomes available (roughly 15/5). Vigor/Stam levels are useful in general for damage mitigation, Vigor helps her damage (Which, while not a "wow" factor, is still going to be very solid), and Stam helps with Regen ticks along with being the scaling component on her hidden ability. That relic does other things besides changing Celes' command, too; it makes her randomly counterattack like Black Belt and also covers critical allies like Knight Cape/Hero Ring.

If you're looking for a Paladin-style build, I recommend Phantom for sure. She won't be your primary DPS unit, but she will contribute meaningfully to damage done. She's not going to be your primary healer either, but in a pinch she's able to drop massive single-target heals with Remedy/Regen or even a moderate group heal early on with Cure 2 (X-Potion is usually better by the time late WoR is coming around, but early game Cure 2 is great even with no investment). She's likely to shrug off every major attack in the game and still be swinging, something only a few other builds can even claim to do (Stam builds for Terra, Cyan, and Locke).

[Mishrak]

Merton is a slippery slope. On one hand it has a really high mpow. On the other it respects defense and hits two elements, which means it's quite resistable. Add to that the fact that it hits both sides and it becomes a spell that's hard to use.

If you buff it, by making it defense ignoring or increasing the pow, it goes from borderline useful to god tier magic spell like Ultima. Ultima only works because you get it at the very end. Merton is gated pretty late, but not /that/ late and an experienced player could kill White-d first. So it is rather underwhelming but I think this is partly because defenses are as high as they are on the end game bosses.

Those (both mdef and pdef) are coming down in 1.8.5. This is also why vigor builds struggle to keep up late. Defenses are too high and favor defense ignoring stuff too much.

Quote

So as things stand now, if one wanted her to be anything but the boring speedy caster, like I do, the best options are to go Ramuh+Alex with more of the latter, or Crusader heavy maybe?

Ramuh + Alex is nice. Really wants Bserk. Consider using a Zantetusken or Wing Edges. Oath Veil + Ele swords for weaknesses. And ofc Illumina for smashing things.

Pure Crusader is a very support oriented role that utilizes full uptime Runic and support spells. The big heal is Remedy. Shock is fueled by Stamina but is mostly a random clearer. Omega Weapon is also respectfully damaging, esp w/ Bserk. She'll never hit Terra levels of damage per hit but she's way faster.

[Hapanpappa]

Yea I suppose I tried to be a little too technical in my argument and it only served to make things more confusing than needed.

Trying to reiterate once more, I think it boils down to how in terms of.. characterization, or the game's story/"lore", it'd make sense to me to have her fighter builds be more alluring than they currently are in relation to other options. Or more alluring than say, for Terra, just based on their backstories. However I do love how there are options for many of the party members that break the mold, as it were. It's just this one thing that had me like "Huh, you'd think she'd be better at this."

Edit: Cheers for all the comments and ideas. Maybe I'll try to approach this with a more open mind and not zero in on a single aspect.

[thzfunnymzn]

Hapanpappa, I too feel that way. It's partially why, despite Siren Celes being better, I still use Ramuh + Alexander Celes quite often.

If you're running my suggestion, be forewarned, it involves benching Celes for quite a while, and doesn't really bloom until you've got both Illumina & Alexander ELs (two later WoR dungeons). It's very focused on endgame potential, because I'm unimpressed with Celes' weapons except for Illumina. I recommend an equal amount of Ramuh & Alex, because Celes is more a tank than a dps unit.

[Hapanpappa]

thzfunnymzn, I'll do that for sure next time; I just can't see her as anything other than a knight. Thanks for the advice.

BTB, on 23 March 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

Celes in particular is not a DPS unit. She's a support unit who can still deal good damage. She's actually above average in all categories, just not the best in any.

Herein then lies the root of it all, you just had a vastly different design philosophy for her as a character. I can't say I understand this particular decision, I mean, she's a general, not some opera floozy!

I'll be keeping a close eye on what's to come, though. Throw General Celes fans a bone sometime in the future. Or don't, I and everyone else will still love the hack. I do realize that when it comes to fundamental design choices&matters of outlook on what a certain unit is supposed to accomplish, it's not likely to ever change.. At least in any significant fashion. But who knows what the future holds. I wish you guys the best of luck! Keep me in the loop!

[thzfunnymzn]

Hey, maybe she's a general more focused on rallying the troops and taking big attacks. She just needs to make up for her shortcomings.

[Mishrak]

BTB, on 23 March 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

Celes in particular is not a DPS unit. She's a support unit who can still deal good damage. She's actually above average in all categories, just not the best in any.

So I'll make the case that she actually is probably the best support character in the game because of Runic.

Runic is one of the strongest magic mitigating abilities, period and is relevant all the way until the end of the game. It's even still extremely useful for Kefka. Her speed builds are especially potent users of Runic because she can basically have a 100% uptime. This is why I feel like Crusader is her best support build. While Siren can have the same result with Runic, she wants to be casting offensively rather than focusing on Runic.

That doesn't include all of her amazing support abilities and spell options.


On the topic of Phantom Celes, I will argue that you're rather better off taking Ramuh and Crusader if you want to go that route. If you split the EL's decently, you're looking at 20 Vigor, 10 Speed 10 Stamina, versus 20 Vigor 20 Stamina. The speed is far more significant in a supportive role than the extra Stamina. This is even more important if you want to take Seraph or Alexandr levels, because you'll never really get enough of Stamina or Vigor from EL to have a noticeable impact on incoming damage. It's outright just better to focus your EL down one path than it is to mix them.

[thzfunnymzn]

I agree that Celes is one of the game's best support units. Honestly, I rank Siren Celes as one of the best builds in the game, period. She's versatile & powerful. There's few parties that aren't made better by including her. The design was for Te/Ce to be a notch above the rest. Terra & vig Celes, IMO, do not fulfill this, but Siren Celes most certainly does.

I'll agree with Mishrak on Phantom. Not sure how much I agree about adding Crusader to the mix. Though I guess it's not any different from splashing Sire, and, well, I did advocate for benching vig Celes until late in the game anyways. *whistles* If it didn't mess up Shadow, I'd advocate making Phantom a stam+2.