After playing the game I have two suggestions. I am well aware that my perspective isn't as well informed as yours, Praetarius5018. I just like to spill my thoughts to you as a feed-back, in appreciation for all the work you have put in to the betterment of this game...
1. Remove the requirement of having acquired the corresponding spirit for learning spells.
In Secret of Mana there was a clear story driven reason as to why you got new spells. You got them from the spirit upon it joining you. In the sequel they chose to use the same progression, and combined it with stats requirements. But since it's never explained in the story of Seiken Densetsu 3 that you learn the spells from the spirits by your side, and since there is already another requirement in place, I'd advocate for removing it entirely. That'd give you (the designer) more freedom to tweak what classes learn what spells, without band-aid exceptions. Actually it'd make more sense story-wise if it just was about experience (class) and potential (stats), since every other person and monster in the world learns the same spells without having the actual spirit as a companion.
2. Remove base elemental resistance and weaknesses from all classes.
This feature, with basic resistance and weaknesses, is at first sight an added depth to the game. But I don't like the hassle of it. Having the weakness is too punishing in some cases and just removes the fun of choosing a play-style, since I in those cases is more or less required to give up a gear slot to handle that specific characters weakness on that boss. My most painful example is Dark Duran at Black Rabite. It's also something that is a "check the manual or be oblivious about it"-feature, that isn't apparent in the game in any way. Also, it might be a better balanced game overall without it. Gear that in the games current state gives "removes base weakness" could be changed to "adds resistance to X and weakness to Y and Z (or all other elemental attacks).
Suggestions
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#2
- Creator of SD3 Hardtype
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01 February 2016 - 03:06 PM
Urzula, on 01 February 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:
1. Remove the requirement of having acquired the corresponding spirit for learning spells.
How much would that even change?
Let's check with 1st CC before Tzenker and 2nd after Bill/Ben2 and Golem trio; that should be more or less the average.
base classes:
Duran, Kevin, Hawk, Charlie and Lise have no change.
Angela would learn Jewel Eater's weakness before the fight; does she need that? not really, she already does excellent damage there
1st classes:
Duran/Knight no change
Duran/Gladiator could learn ice saber for Genova - which can also screw you over with certain shapechangers
Kevin/Monk could learn Power Up at all before B/B2
Kevin/Bashkar still no spells at all
Hawk/Ranger Body Change two bosses earlier, not too important
Hawk/Ninja adds 2 Jutsus; I'd rather not have him power/mind debuffs that early, the early part was balanced under the assumption that you have at most def up
Angela/Sorceress no change that matters (earlier Evil Gate for what even?)
Angela/Delvar only Mega Splash would matter IF you can get it before Genova... which requires 7(!) level ups between Tzenker and the stove, even 4 lvl ups is pushing it.
Charlie/Priestess could have Ice Saber for Genova but that requires 6 levels after CC... yeah, probably not
Charlie/Enchantress would get Power Down, see ninja
Lise would in either case get 2 more spells, see ninja
In short I'd only see Hawk and Lise really profit here - and with how omnipresent they seem in class suggestions... no, they don't need it.
2nd classes:
The only relevant parts are the moon forest and the forest of wonders / their respective bosses.
Explicitly missing are:
Lunatic, Half Vanish, Life Booster, Energy Ball, Moon Saber
Poison Bubble, Transshape, Aura Wave and Leaf Saber.
I only see one spell that would be critical to teams (Aura Wave) but two that can completely break a boss (Life Booster and Transshape)
Urzula, on 01 February 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:
2. Remove base elemental resistance and weaknesses from all classes.
This feature, with basic resistance and weaknesses, is at first sight an added depth to the game. But I don't like the hassle of it.
This feature, with basic resistance and weaknesses, is at first sight an added depth to the game. But I don't like the hassle of it.
Let's assume your team had no elemental resistance, WHY should you care whether the enemy used fireball or airblast, they are the exact same to you.
Urzula, on 01 February 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:
It's also something that is a "check the manual or be oblivious about it"-feature, that isn't apparent in the game in any way.
That's an unchangable truth for 99% of the items.
But since you HAVE to check the manual on how to open the menu now... I don't really see the problem.
In fact if certain items would add a weakness that would seem worse to me: "my magic def went up when I changed the armor but I take double the damage WTF"
#3
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02 February 2016 - 07:34 AM
First, thank you for giving a well argumented response to my suggestions!!!
The reason for my suggestion in the first place was to aim for consistency. Instead of introducing exceptions for specific skills (spells), I thought, why not just change it all together. When thinking about it I came up with the following thresholds for progression:
It becomes clear to me that you, from a design point of view, look at what bosses certain spells are available. That'd make the "boss kill" threshold the appropriate one, which in practice is the same as "acquired spirit", since those happens directly after boss fights. So I see how my suggestion potentially introduces worse problems than it tries to solve.
I'm arguing that you shouldn't have to care. The spell damage should differ in damage according to what kind of spell it is, and who casts it, not what elemental type it is, unless you're wearing something that makes you more or less vulnerable to it, or it's that day of the week. As is now, Fireball becomes more dangerous all of a sudden to Kevin because he did a class change to the light side.
But I see where you are coming from. You want it to matter, and that's a reason to keep it as it is. What I tried to argue for was that the game would be better off without that depth.
I'm just arguing for arguing's sake here, but...
There is a difference between knowing that that you don't know something, and not even knowing that there is something that you don't know. Items are there, you see them, and you know that you don't know what they do, so you look it up. Innate class spell weaknesses and resistances is nowhere to be indicated in-game that you could be aware of. And even though that's the case now with the menu, that's not an argument for not trying to prevent those situations in a game. That's just bad design in general.
I agree. Maybe a better change for the items would have been: adds resistance to X, but at glass levels of defense.
Praetarius5018, on 01 February 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:
How much would that even change?
The reason for my suggestion in the first place was to aim for consistency. Instead of introducing exceptions for specific skills (spells), I thought, why not just change it all together. When thinking about it I came up with the following thresholds for progression:
- Class change
- Stats requirement
- Acquired spirit
- Boss kill
- Level
It becomes clear to me that you, from a design point of view, look at what bosses certain spells are available. That'd make the "boss kill" threshold the appropriate one, which in practice is the same as "acquired spirit", since those happens directly after boss fights. So I see how my suggestion potentially introduces worse problems than it tries to solve.
Praetarius5018, on 01 February 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:
Let's assume your team had no elemental resistance, WHY should you care whether the enemy used fireball or airblast, they are the exact same to you.
I'm arguing that you shouldn't have to care. The spell damage should differ in damage according to what kind of spell it is, and who casts it, not what elemental type it is, unless you're wearing something that makes you more or less vulnerable to it, or it's that day of the week. As is now, Fireball becomes more dangerous all of a sudden to Kevin because he did a class change to the light side.
But I see where you are coming from. You want it to matter, and that's a reason to keep it as it is. What I tried to argue for was that the game would be better off without that depth.
Praetarius5018, on 01 February 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:
That's an unchangable truth for 99% of the items.
I'm just arguing for arguing's sake here, but...
There is a difference between knowing that that you don't know something, and not even knowing that there is something that you don't know. Items are there, you see them, and you know that you don't know what they do, so you look it up. Innate class spell weaknesses and resistances is nowhere to be indicated in-game that you could be aware of. And even though that's the case now with the menu, that's not an argument for not trying to prevent those situations in a game. That's just bad design in general.
Praetarius5018, on 01 February 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:
In fact if certain items would add a weakness that would seem worse to me: "my magic def went up when I changed the armor but I take double the damage WTF"
I agree. Maybe a better change for the items would have been: adds resistance to X, but at glass levels of defense.
#4
- Creator of SD3 Hardtype
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02 February 2016 - 10:45 AM
Urzula, on 02 February 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:
It becomes clear to me that you, from a design point of view, look at what bosses certain spells are available. That'd make the "boss kill" threshold the appropriate one, which in practice is the same as "acquired spirit", since those happens directly after boss fights. So I see how my suggestion potentially introduces worse problems than it tries to solve.
Well, apart from bosses the only other obstacle are regular monster which - at least early - don't amount to too much.
There's not much that counts in that level region apart from having heal light - for free refills after victory - and boss fights.
I'd argue that the 6 characters are at least somewhat balanced compared to each other for the early parts;
giving Angela airblast for Jewel Eater or Lise or dark Hawk all 4 (de)buffs directly after class change would simply be too much. Other characters gain maybe 1 or 2 of those effects only after the 2nd CC, so having all 4 that early... way too good.
Urzula, on 02 February 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:
As is now, Fireball becomes more dangerous all of a sudden to Kevin because he did a class change to the light side.
Well, class change should already be an informed choice because of how different the various final classes are especially as a full team;
Nightblade, Necromancer, DragonMaster (3x stat downs and not much else) is a very different thing than Ninja Master, Sage, Starlancer. This was the same for vanilla, too.
So looking over weaknesses as well here is just another mini-step.
Urzula, on 02 February 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:
I'm arguing that you shouldn't have to care. The spell damage should differ in damage according to what kind of spell it is, and who casts it, not what elemental type it is, unless you're wearing something that makes you more or less vulnerable to it, or it's that day of the week.
Urzula, on 02 February 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:
But I see where you are coming from. You want it to matter, and that's a reason to keep it as it is. What I tried to argue for was that the game would be better off without that depth.
I'd point to SMT games or hell forbid Pokemon for examples that elemental weaknesses on the main characters can work and provide some more depth to the game.
Weaknesses here are kinda on the mild side penalty wise, just +50% damage taken.
Urzula, on 02 February 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:
I agree. Maybe a better change for the items would have been: adds resistance to X, but at glass levels of defense.
That's more of a numerical problem...
Glass is so low def wise that even with resistance (half damage) you might even take MORE damage than if you didn't wear it.
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