Road to 2.0

[praetarius5018 111]

We've already weapons that can add status effects on any base attack, other status effects cause bugs, hi there sleep..

[rpschamp 0]

I'm interested in further exploiting this mechanic that uses TP or MP on a strong attack, giving strong attacks another purpose.

What about a magic-sword effect? You could have a set that casts a single-target level 1 damage spell on a strong attack, costing MP instead of TP, one for each of the six main elements. It would be nice because the damage spells would offer another way to get around physical resistance, which the current elemental accessories do not, and it would fit in nicely as a final set of accessories. It would also give fighters something to do with their up-ticking MP. I don't know how easy this kind of effect would be to implement, though.

Edited May 17, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

If you mean with animation and all - I'd rather not even try as that would involve the event system which barely holds together.

[rpschamp 0]

32 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

If you mean with animation and all - I'd rather not even try as that would involve the event system which barely holds together.

It doesn't need the spell animation; it could use the hit animation/sound from the elemental melee effects and just apply the damage at the same time as your melee strike, like when you hit Mispolm with a level 2/3 tech and get two damage numbers. The fact that you cast the spell would be indicated by the hit animation/sound, assuming you didn't already have a saber spell cast on you.

EDIT: Maybe the magical damage could be colored differently to better distinguish it? This could even be applied as a general principle, so players would know that a Hawk spell is hitting differently than an Angela/Carlie spell.

EDIT: I also like this because it offers an extra advantage to melee fighters with a high intelligence stat, apart from the minor tech bonus increase.

Edited May 17, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

Another damage pop up on a base attack is not a good idea, that is kinda an expensive operation.
Especially when you consider that it could trigger twice as often for Hawk or Kevin, just imagine what would happen if both spiked a 40 MP pool at the same time into this gimmick.

This works for Mispolm since it comes from a Lv2/3 tech after the game freeze where the game should have still some breathing room and it can't be spammed for like 10 damage pop ups in half a second.

[rpschamp 0]

13 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Another damage pop up on a base attack is not a good idea, that is kinda an expensive operation.
Especially when you consider that it could trigger twice as often for Hawk or Kevin, just imagine what would happen if both spiked a 40 MP pool at the same time into this gimmick.

This works for Mispolm since it comes from a Lv2/3 tech after the game freeze where the game should have still some breathing room and it can't be spammed for like 10 damage pop ups in half a second.

Well, it could be done by just directly adding the spell damage into the melee damage, but this might be hard to see if the player already has a saber or an elemental accessory. Also, I'm not sure you really want to add more ways to get around physical immunity, making spells like Antimagic or negate physical immunity weapons even less important.

Edited May 17, 2020 by rpschamp

[rpschamp 0]

Another idea is to offer stat break accessories, which use strong attacks and TP or MP to break down physical attack, magical attack, physical defense, magical defense, accuracy/evasion, or buffs/debuffs (like Antimagic). You could make their success rate based on some combination of strength, agility, intelligence, or luck, so they are less reliable than their spell versions. A successful break might be indicated by a sabered strike sound.

Edited May 17, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

So basically debuff on attack?
I think that goes too far, it would remove like a 3rd of the "necessity" spells from the checklist.

[rpschamp 0]

2 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

So basically debuff on attack?
I think that goes too far, it would remove like a 3rd of the "necessity" spells from the checklist.

I agree, it would throw off the balance. I was thinking to limit the success rate, but would players really use this if it was too unreliable?

[praetarius5018 111]

If it is clear that noone would use it it is not worth adding obviously.
And boss fights last long enough that even a low 5% should trigger at least during the first quarter of the fight.

[rpschamp 0]

3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I'm not sure what other spell would be equally important to learn. Suggestions?

Thinking big-picture, something that would be incredibly useful to fill out the functions of a team would be an accessory that allowed you to invert the targets of items from players to enemies, or vice versa, just like spells. Scales and sabers could be used to achieve stat debuffs (with invert armor) or saber/resistance this way. Other items could be blocked or their effects attenuated as you see fit; this should not break the game or be used to replace other more expensive items (e.g., using Stardust Herbs in place of Specter's Eyes). Obviously, because of it's power, this accessory could be cursed/unequippable.

Edited May 17, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

6 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Thinking big-picture, something that would be incredibly useful to fill out the functions of a team would be an accessory that allowed you to invert the targets of items from players to enemies, or vice versa, just like spells.

Tbh. I didn't do that because I can't figure out what to do with stardust herbs vs specter eyes - apart from that it would probably get my ok as a standard feature even.

[rpschamp 0]

19 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Tbh. I didn't do that because I can't figure out what to do with stardust herbs vs specter eyes - apart from that it would probably get my ok as a standard feature even.

Could the Y-button effect just be blocked on certain items? For instance, if your item ring is turned to Stardust Herb and you press Y and A, can you check to see if the item ring is on Stardust Herb and if so then cancel the effect of the Y button? (I'm probably betraying my ignorance of how hex editing works, but there must be some way to achieve conditional statements? And some indication of which item is to be used?)

Edited May 17, 2020 by rpschamp

[Soul Knight 0]

Wow, this thread is turning into a huge request page.  Perhaps you people should tone it down a little.  Let the man get some rest.  Even his icon (of Duran) is stressing.

Putting aside the mechanic requests, I'll just say that I agree with the Title having the hack name.  Esp with "adding at the end" thing (so that it'd be compatible with all sorts of titles).  Your hack deserves an awesome title card.  I think Sins sound better than Sin (as hmsong said), but the better question is, what sounds better to praetarius5018?  It has to sound good to him.

[rpschamp 0]

19 minutes ago, Soul Knight said:

Wow, this thread is turning into a huge request page.  Perhaps you people should tone it down a little.  Let the man get some rest.  Even his icon (of Duran) is stressing.

Sorry, I was just trying to help generate ideas; I thought that was the point of the forum topic. I agree I may have gone a bit overboard. I certainly don't want to stress anyone out. I will step back for a while and let others contribute.

[Soul Knight 0]

Oh, I didn't mean for you to stop generating ideas.  I just thought it'd be good to give some time to let the given idea to be processed.  Sigh.  It looks like I sent out a wrong message.

[rpschamp 0]

It’s okay - I do tend to get a little over-excited about these things. I’m honestly not good with forums. It can be difficult interpreting text messages from people you don't know, or getting a sense of how you're coming across. I think I've contributed enough for now though, I’d like to see what ideas other people have, mine are exhausted at the moment. Don’t worry, if I think of something else, I won’t be able to help myself :-)

Though after this discussion, I feel like I need to get some basic hex editing experience so I can at least know what kind of ideas make sense, I get the impression that it's quite different from traditional coding....

Edited May 18, 2020 by rpschamp

[smileless 0]

"inbattle item usage requires 4 TP"

Hm I think with that feature it would be nice to remove the restriction to switch ring menu to other characters if they are in the middle of attack.

[praetarius5018 111]

18 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Could the Y-button effect just be blocked on certain items?

Technically possible but that would be arbitrary, I want to keep the number of exceptions to a minimum. The mod is complex enough as it is.

15 hours ago, Soul Knight said:

Even his icon (of Duran) is stressing.

That is a facepalm.

15 hours ago, Soul Knight said:

I'll just say that I agree with the Title having the hack name.  Esp with "adding at the end" thing (so that it'd be compatible with all sorts of titles).

Me too, but the compression of that graphic is beyond me; same for text editing in SD3.
I tried to reach out to some folks on rhdn that have messed with that but no replies so far.

15 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Sorry, I was just trying to help generate ideas; I thought that was the point of the forum topic.

It is.

7 hours ago, smileless said:

"inbattle item usage requires 4 TP"

Hm I think with that feature it would be nice to remove the restriction to switch ring menu to other characters if they are in the middle of attack.

With how frail the game engine is that is a thing I don't want to mess with, sorry.

[rpschamp 0]

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

19 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Could the Y-button effect just be blocked on certain items?

Technically possible but that would be arbitrary, I want to keep the number of exceptions to a minimum. The mod is complex enough as it is.

I think this could be the only exception... unless you want to reduce Honey Drinks to 600 HP or something to limit their usefulness on undead monsters. I think of this exception as a small sacrifice in consistency for an awesome ability, like Rune Master's Stone Cloud being kept to single-target on her multi-target level 3 spell final weapon.

I can see enemy-targetable items being a standard feature, since flipping scales won't be beneficial until invert armor becomes available halfway through the game, and using claws on enemies shouldn't really be that beneficial anyways until you hit Lugar, when you already have your saber spells. This also gives invert armor more of a purpose.

Do you have any ideas for the weapon you're replacing? I once thought a weapon that could hit against magical defense instead of physical defense would be cool, but this might again take away from Antimagic and the ignore physical immunity/resistance weapons, and for other enemies, don't most monsters/bosses have physical and magical defense in proportion anyways (based on Lise's stats)?

I will think on the list of equipment you're planning to replace. I'm also trying to think of something cool/internally consistent for that last set of accessories, unless you want to use them for separate purposes.

Edited May 18, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

32 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I think this could be the only exception... unless you want to reduce Honey Drinks to 600 HP or something to limit their usefulness on undead monsters.

Eh, worst case I can up the price of honey.
I'm currently changing the heal items to scale a bit with level; I've candy at like 70~300 currently and seeds top out around 200 without any +heal power gear.

34 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Do you have any ideas for the weapon you're replacing?

Gain superarmor during heavy attack cooldown (immune to knockback, 25% dmg reduction vs regular attacks).

34 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I once thought a weapon that could hit against magical defense instead of physical defense would be cool

Doesn't sound too useful, most mobs have relatively similar p.def to m.def.

38 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

unless you want to use them for separate purposes.

I'm not entirely set on what I want to do with the stuff.

For one armor I was thinking:
cursed, 1/2 maxMP, one map transition apply to party known buffs out of: power/def/speed/mind up, magic shield, counter magic, energy ball

For the rest I have candidates like:

1. cursed, learn Regeneration (one/all), qualifies for after battle heal; if all 10 slots are full overwrites first spell known
2. cursed, -30% HP, 2x MP, +1 MP reg speed (+25% INT based regen value)
3. cursed, during cast MP regen is NOT stopped
4. cursed, bloodborne like HP recover mechanic, LAST damage taken 1/2 stored, degrades over time with MP tick check, normal attacks restore HP by half the damage done at moon saber step
5. strong attack attack power increased by level x1.5
6. can use Lv1 techs without TP but for each missing TP it costs 3 MP
7. MP reg tick gives +1 TP

[rpschamp 0]

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

cursed, 1/2 maxMP, one map transition apply to party known buffs out of: power/def/speed/mind up, magic shield, counter magic, energy ball

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

strong attack attack power increased by level x1.5

Anything to make strong attacks more useful, right now quick attacks in most cases seem to put out much more damage over time. This is why I was trying to think of more TP/MP cost effects on strong attack. I think the general problem with this is that unless you are holding a directional button, it can be difficult to control strong attack vs. quick attack, so you might eat up your TP/MP unintentionally. Perhaps strong attacks could be adjusted to require a longer A button depression?

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

For one armor I was thinking:
cursed, 1/2 maxMP, one map transition apply to party known buffs out of: power/def/speed/mind up, magic shield, counter magic, energy ball

Great alternative to upkeep on transition. I was thinking earlier when you brought up the idea of upkeep - how would that work with MP-heavy single-target skills like Magic Shield? This armor could make that possible, at a cost of course.

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

• cursed, -30% HP, 2x MP, +1 MP reg speed (+25% INT based regen value)
• cursed, during cast MP regen is NOT stopped

These are good, but what about an accessory to increase spell damage? Right now the only option is Crystal Ring, and it's usefulness decreases as your intelligence/spirit stats grow. I was thinking something like 1/2 maxMP, 1.5 spell damage modifier, cumulative with other effects (like the weakness modifier, or Archmage's extra 50% on weakness).

Edited May 18, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

12 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Perhaps strong attacks could be adjusted to require a longer A button depression?

That is already the case.
Strong attack is supposed to be hold A until the attack triggers, quick attack release before that.
The problem is ironically the few situations where lag is absent; I needed frame advance to release A quick enough.
I must know if it is a heavy attack during an early part of the attack animation where the damage is calculated and that was in a lag free environment almost immediatly.
Direction button is just a band aid solution for that.

15 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

These are good, but what about an accessory to increase spell damage?

Do Beastman Collar, Red Moon Horn, Magatama and Earth Bracelet not count?
Also I'm a bit hesitant to give magic another big damage increase.
It has already primary stat, secondary stat, all kinds of cast time modifiers, weakness, saber bonus, mind up, mind down, ... most of which are multiplicative.
I wanna say spells are currently at a spot where they are relevant but not overwhelming - basically neither vanilla SD3 nor Secret of Mana.

1.5 times damage is a lot, and cutting MP in half is at least for Angela trivial. She can reach 40 MP, halved is 20, still enough to cast 3 explosions each at unbuffed 200~300 (300~450 with 1.5x) on a neutral target, not really a drawback.

[rpschamp 0]

52 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

1.5 times damage is a lot, and cutting MP in half is at least for Angela trivial. She can reach 40 MP, halved is 20, still enough to cast 3 explosions each at unbuffed 200~300 (300~450 with 1.5x) on a neutral target, not really a drawback.

Have you considered an armor or accessory that increases spell damage, but starts the caster at 0 MP? This could lead to interesting builds based more on balanced physical/magical stats so the caster can perform in melee while her MP builds through tics or MP stealing weapons/accessories. You could also include a limit on her ability to recover MP through tics, stealing, or Walnuts; maybe 2 or 3 MP per effect.

It doesn't need to be a 1.5 modifier either; 1 spell level without neutralizing the spell element may be enough. Since this would likely impact the way the player builds the caster, this item might as well be cursed.

Edited May 18, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

To avoid any confusion what I'm going for with "cursed" items:
regular items have one medium sized bonus (Dragon Helm: tech damage increase) or several small ones (Headgear: weapon cooldown -10, evade +15, resist knockback from regular attacks).

Cursed items in comparison should have one huge bonus, a drawback and be unremovable.
For an example the "learn Regeneraion spell" item gives you basically a healer, the drawback is that it eats up another spell slot so you are very likely to miss out on the "high tier" spells.

Also I think a few of the L60 capstone should interact with cursed items in some way.
Something simple like +x def for each cursed item equipped.

I'm still on the fence whether I allow equipping cursed items past 60, meaning you'd have to choose them by then.
Reason being that some of the drawbacks might not matter when you only have to face the final boss/dungeon so going for the big bonus then would be abusable.

30 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Have you considered an armor or accessory that increases spell damage, but starts the caster at 0 MP?

That would be problematic. For bosses it would not matter once you are past the starting phase since by then you have to recover MP in some way anyway. And for most bosses the start is the hardest part anyway (setup of buffs and debuffs) so noone would want that.

What I could think of would be instead negative MP regen paired with an alternative MP recovery mechanic.