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praetarius5018

Road to 2.0

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Here's a spell idea for Kevin: Use his previous "Pressure Point" spell to give him shield/aggro. (As in he becomes the point of pressure.) He can maintain this as upkeep. This gives him a novel shield option that he can use without sacrificing equipment.

If you don't like that idea, the spell can still be repurposed to help him fill out his spell roster.

Edited by rpschamp

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19 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Whenever I look at the history of major things I've changed it feels like the majority is to Kevin's detriment, some deserved, some not.

Like forced stat recalc on map transition is half a buff (no longer loses attack power temporarely if he levels up in wolfform) and half a nerf to him (can no longer stack wolf bonuses).
L2/3 techs actually profitting from saber is probably to his detriment as the formerly dominant L1 techs got less dominant.
How about penalizing damage on dual attackers.
Fixing AGL and LUCK (crits) is also arguably to his detriment as his stats in both are not the best.
Or now me taking away the ability to gain multiple TP per attack through hitting multiple targets and/or sub-hits.
And much more stuff.

He went from the king of the arguable most OP fighting style to whatever he is right now.

17 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Here's a spell idea for Kevin: Use his previous "Pressure Point" spell to give him shield/aggro. (As in he becomes the point of pressure.) He can maintain this as upkeep. This gives him a novel shield option that he can use without sacrificing equipment.

If you don't like that idea, the spell can still be repurposed to help him fill out his spell roster.

Pressure point was already sacrificed for Archdemon.

Edited by praetarius5018

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32 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Whenever I look at the history of major things I've changed it feels like the majority is to Kevin's detriment, some deserved, some not.

Like forced stat recalc on map transition is half a buff (no longer loses attack power temporarely if he levels up in wolfform) and half a nerf to him (can no longer stack wolf bonuses).
L2/3 techs actually profitting from saber is probably to his detriment as the formerly dominant L1 techs got less dominant.
How about penalizing damage on dual attackers.
Fixing AGL and LUCK (crits) is also arguably to his detriment as his stats in both are not the best.
Or now me taking away the ability to gain multiple TP per attack through hitting multiple targets and/or sub-hits.
And much more stuff.

He went from the king of the arguable most OP fighting style to whatever he is right now.

Understood. Well, what if you give him some upkeep abilities to recover some of his melee dominance? He could use his MP to maintain some unique advantage in melee through upkeep spells. Thematically, this is kind of the point of the classically trained monk.

Pressure Point would be a natural conduit for this. Instead of my shield/aggro idea, he could use it to regain his +1 TP per hit ability, for instance, or to give him some unique bonus to hit/crit percentage or tech damage.

Other unused spells could be repurposed to different effects. These types of spells could be something unique to Kevin that Hawk could not step on, since Hawk already benefited most from the Luck fix. (Though in general I think Kevin's base Luck could be brought up a bit.)

I don't want to bash Kevin. He lost his pup... and compared to the others, he's a pretty lovable guy.

EDIT: After some more thought, I really like the idea of Kevin being able to channel his MP into regaining his OP-melee state. It could build up his spell roster and give him a unique quality, resonant with the original game. It may take some thought on how best to implement this.

Edited by rpschamp

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24 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Understood. Well, what if you give him some upkeep abilities to recover some of his melee dominance? He could use his MP to maintain some unique advantage in melee through upkeep spells. Thematically, this is kind of the point of the classically trained monk.

No idea how I would do this in spell form.

25 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Other unused spells could be repurposed to different effects.

I've only one unused spell atm - Ancient 3. That wouldn't fit thematically on anyone but Angela and she doesn't even have Ancient 2.

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4 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

No idea how I would do this in spell form.

I've only one unused spell atm - Ancient 3. That wouldn't fit thematically on anyone but Angela and she doesn't even have Ancient 2.

What about Pressure Point? I don't think this is currently being used, and it's in the original game. The spell with the wolf head icon that only Monk gets. You can still use this, right?

Edited by rpschamp

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Just now, rpschamp said:

What about Pressure Point? I don't think this is currently being used, and it's in the original game. The spell with the wolf head icon that only Monk gets.

40 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Pressure point was already sacrificed for Archdemon.

 

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45 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Pressure point was already sacrificed for Archdemon.

Why don't you use Ancient 3 for Archdemon instead, and recover Pressure Point for Kevin?

I just think this could be something unique to add for Kevin to address some of the misgivings you're feeling about how he's been changed. And it has a damn cool icon! Plus, this could be one of the more fun spells to playtest.

Edited by rpschamp

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And then what exactly?

I think Kevin has strong enough melee by itself.
And technically he can use Aura Wave (at least on Death Hand, was sure at least one more Kevin class had it, huh) to convert MP into TP = more physical dps.

9 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I just think this could be something unique to add for Kevin to address some of the misgivings you're feeling about how he's been changed.

Where did I say nerfing Kevin was a bad thing?
Vanilla Kevin was stupidly OP.
Not only could he stack wolfform to have more damage per swing than Duelist Duran and attack twice as often on top of that, he also gets a free power up buff when he gets hit in wolfform. And sometimes his dual swing glitches out to make him go on a non-stop rampage.

Edited by praetarius5018

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19 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

And then what exactly?

That's up to you. Some unique buff to pin him as the king of fighters, maybe just a simple damage bonus to his level 1 tech.

I was just trying to kill two birds with one stone - help fill out Kevin's spell roster, and regain some of his lost power I thought you were saying should not have been taken away, through a unique ability.

19 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

And technically he can use Aura Wave (at least on Death Hand, was sure at least one more Kevin class had it, huh) to convert MP into TP = more physical dps.

God Hand could get this back as well.

Edited by rpschamp

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15 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Where did I say nerfing Kevin was a bad thing?

I may have misinterpreted you. I thought you were expressing some degree of regret or annoyance over "Kevin bashing". I interpreted your invitation to continue "Kevin bashing" as sarcastic.

EDIT: Or perhaps you just meant that he has been bashed sufficiently, and should be bashed no more. In this case, limiting his spell roster would not be bashing since he already has fewer spells than everyone else.

Edited by rpschamp

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What I meant was that he was more or less at a good place.
Considering he is one of the rarest used members in the Character/Job Party Recommendations topic (at least it feels like that, didn't exactly count) I don't think he warrent yet another beating with the nerf stick.

Edited by praetarius5018

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Got it. Sorry for misinterpreting what you were saying. If you haven't already realized, unmarked jokes have a tendency to fall flat on these boards. (EDIT: Especially today, when things got a little testy on another topic.)

If you have no plans for Ancient 3 though, it might be nice to give Kevin something unique with Pressure Point, especially with that cool wolf head icon. A unique buff would make him more attractive to players if you feel he's underused. An aggro/shield spell is still an option. Give it some thought.

Edited by rpschamp

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21 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

If you haven't already realized, unmarked jokes have a tendency to fall flat on these boards.

That's got nothing to do with the boards but the written medium in general.

Dolan was always a touchy subject; I know that it isn't super obvious to others (why else would it be a puzzle boss) but whenever I asked back noone could ever offer a way to make it better within the constraints I have with the game, if I even get an answer at all.
And completely dropping the gimmick is not something I accept.

22 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

If you have no plans for Ancient 3 though, it might be nice to give Kevin something unique with Pressure Point, especially with that cool wolf head icon. A unique buff would make him more attractive to players if you feel he's underused. An aggro/shield spell is still an option. Give it some thought.

No idea if I'll follow this path at all but an "aggro spell" is certainly not on the table.

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15 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

That's got nothing to do with the boards but the written medium in general.

Thus the importance of context. Unfortunately, context on a message board is highly subjective, largely dependent on what someone has read that day.

I honestly don't get why Dolan is such a touchy subject. Yeah, he can kick your ass, but isn't that the point?

15 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

No idea if I'll follow this path at all but an "aggro spell" is certainly not on the table.

My vote is for a Super Saiyin-style Kevin-exclusive melee/tech buff to set him apart from his closest competitor Hawk who has

1) much higher base Luck and

2) only 1 less base Strength on average.

I know wolf-form already kind of fits into this category, but he could use something else.

Edited by rpschamp

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10 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I honestly don't get why Dolan is such a touchy subject. Yeah, he can kick your ass, but isn't that the point?

It is the point that the bosses are a challenge.
The problem they argue about is that they can't figure out what they have to do.

Maybe they are too used to prior bosses where you don't really have to pay attention what exactly the boss does?
I mean like, taking damage is just damage doesn't really matter what caused it, you heal it the same way.

15 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

My vote is for a Super Saiyin-style Kevin-exclusive melee/tech buff

So you wanna do DBGT?

I think wolfform is a good enough base, it allows him to use his higher VIT as additional attack. So if you wanna compare it like that it is:
STR+VIT vs AGL+LUCK

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7 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

So you wanna do DBGT?

I think wolfform is a good enough base, it allows him to use his higher VIT as additional attack. So if you wanna compare it like that it is:
STR+VIT vs AGL+LUCK

I suppose you mean Kevin's STR+VIT vs. Hawk's AGI+LUC?

But, Kevin only gets his STR+VIT advantage at night, whereas Hawk always has his AGI+LUC advantage.

Maybe you want them to be equal in melee, but Hawk has other stat and spell advantages, so I think the melee advantage should go to Kevin, in general.

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4 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

The problem they argue about is that they can't figure out what they have to do.

Since you're adjusting the damage color scheme, maybe the damage colors of the level 2/3 tech could simply be changed to counterattack colors to show that it cancelled Dolan's Energy Ball?

This would at least give the player a more direct clue that the attack specifically did something out of the ordinary.

Edited by rpschamp

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1 hour ago, rpschamp said:

Since you're adjusting the damage color scheme, maybe the damage colors of the level 2/3 tech could simply be changed to counterattack colors to show that it cancelled Dolan's Energy Ball?

This would at least give the player a more direct clue that the attack specifically did something out of the ordinary.

If it would be possible to change the damage color only when the tech does something out of the ordinary (like cancelling Dolan's buff) in any situation, that would indeed be pretty handy

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23 minutes ago, Kei said:

If it would be possible to change the damage color only when the tech does something out of the ordinary (like cancelling Dolan's buff) in any situation, that would indeed be pretty handy

That's true. I suggested using the counterattack colors here because level 2/3 techs cannot otherwise be used to perform a counterattack, so it would note something out of the ordinary. But a more general "out of the ordinary" color could be used for other gimmick-breaking moves as well.

Edited by rpschamp

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8 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Maybe you want them to be equal in melee, but Hawk has other stat and spell advantages, so I think the melee advantage should go to Kevin, in general.

What I could do would be to adjust how much damage they get out of 1 point of attack post def.
E.g. if both have 100 attack and attack the same target, Kevin may deal 25 damage per hit and Hawk only 20 or something like that.

4 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Since you're adjusting the damage color scheme, maybe the damage colors of the level 2/3 tech could simply be changed to counterattack colors to show that it cancelled Dolan's Energy Ball?

I can try.
Though, does that even help?
If I understand you right it would only show yellow if it does something.
Which is currently already shown by you not getting 999'd.
So there'd be no hint before getting a game over if you manage to land a Lv2/3 tech before he does the first energy ball (aura wave and increased tech gain items come to mind).

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6 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

What I could do would be to adjust how much damage they get out of 1 point of attack post def.
E.g. if both have 100 attack and attack the same target, Kevin may deal 25 damage per hit and Hawk only 20 or something like that.

This could work; it could also be the bonus that Kevin gets from Pressure Point (25% sounds pretty nice). I still like the idea of Kevin maintaining his attack superiority at a low MP upkeep, akin to a Shaolin monk focusing his mental efforts on battle through mediation (rather than DBGT haha).

6 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I can try.
Though, does that even help?
If I understand you right it would only show yellow if it does something.
Which is currently already shown by you not getting 999'd.
So there'd be no hint before getting a game over if you manage to land a Lv2/3 tech before he does the first energy ball (aura wave and increased tech gain items come to mind).

It would help a little, as a hint that the attack did something. A player may try multiple things between Energy Ball and Spiral Moon, and the level 2/3 tech might have been a mistake, maybe something one of their teammates did while they were focused on casting Antimagic. The counter colors would hint that you countered something, but Kei's idea of a specific "out of the ordinary" color might be even better (and could be used at Mispolm, Dark Lich, and maybe a couple other places).

If you really wanted to drop a hint, you could add a line to the README under counterattacks, something like "in certain situations, a level 2/3 tech may be needed instead to counter a specific move."

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Also, I noticed something buggy with the +2 tech points on evade armor (available at the Dwarf Village). If I manage to evade twice without gaining any tech points through attacking, my tech bar is at 4 TP, but I can't use my level 1 tech at that time or for the rest of the battle.

Edited by rpschamp

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3 hours ago, rpschamp said:

If you really wanted to drop a hint, you could add a line to the README under counterattacks, something like "in certain situations, a level 2/3 tech may be needed instead to counter a specific move."

I don't think that works.
People avoid READMEs like the plague.
Even if not, there's several hours most likely even days between reading it and needing one throwaway sentence.

2 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Also, I noticed something buggy with the +2 tech points on evade armor (available at the Dwarf Village). If I manage to evade twice without gaining any tech points through attacking, my tech bar is at 4 TP, but I can't use my level 1 tech at that time or for the rest of the battle.

I've had that report already, couldn't reproduce it.
So I either fixed it by accident (unlikely) or there's some missing intel.

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28 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I don't think that works.
People avoid READMEs like the plague.
Even if not, there's several hours most likely even days between reading it and needing one throwaway sentence.

But then you could just say, "Check the README...."

EDIT: It could also go under Dolan's weakness in the monsters/bosses spreadsheet. Right now it just says "power"; you could change it to "super counter" or something slightly more obvious.

28 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I've had that report already, couldn't reproduce it.
So I either fixed it by accident (unlikely) or there's some missing intel.

It's interesting how situational some of these "bugs" are. I'm a fan of this armor, so I will keep checking it as the game progresses to see if it corrects itself at some point so I can provide more intel.

Edited by rpschamp

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13 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

It could also go under Dolan's weakness in the monsters/bosses spreadsheet. Right now it just says "power"; you could change it to "super counter" or something slightly more obvious.

huh, what has more "power" than a L3 tech?

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