Road to 2.0

[rpschamp 0]

56 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I'm still on the fence whether I allow equipping cursed items past 60, meaning you'd have to choose them by then.
Reason being that some of the drawbacks might not matter when you only have to face the final boss/dungeon so going for the big bonus then would be abusable.

I agree on the level 60 limit. This kind of thing is already abused with Protect Ring against Archdemon.

56 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

What I could think of would be instead negative MP regen paired with an alternative MP recovery mechanic.

I like this idea. There are a few ways to do this. A simple accessory might be +1/2 spell level, –2 MP regen on tics. Equipping one accessory would get you 1/2 level of spell power, basically twice as strong as a Crystal Ring, but 2–2 = 0 MP regen. Equipping two could get you a full spell level but 2–4 = –2 MP regen. You can make this effect cumulative with other MP regen equipment to give the player the option to offset this balance.

Or, you could just have the accessory be +1 spell level, non-cumulative with the same accessory, but knock you down to –2 MP per tic; this way it only uses up one accessory slot. This is a pretty big bonus with a drawback, so I could see this being cursed. The question is whether you want to make this –2 MP per tic unchangeable or allow other equipment to alter it. With two other items giving a +1 bonus to MP regen, the caster could have the option to get her MP regen back to 0.

I like the concept of a caster selling her soul (MP regen capacity) for extra spell power through a cursed item.

Also, I agree that it's more important that this balance well for boss fights than random fights. Even during random battles though, in the late game, players should feel the lack of or negative MP regen.

Edited May 18, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

18 hours ago, rpschamp said:

A simple accessory might be +1/2 spell level

My problem with spell level increases is that it has a relatively bigger on low level spells than on the higher ones.
Lv1 -> 2 is +30%
Lv2 -> 3 is +23%
Lv3 -> 4 is +18%

And considering cast time differences it would be worth even less on the high level spells.

[rpschamp 0]

2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

My problem with spell level increases is that it has a relatively bigger on low level spells than on the higher ones.
Lv1 -> 2 is +30%
Lv2 -> 3 is +23%
Lv3 -> 4 is +18%

And considering cast time differences it would be worth even less on the high level spells.

So, with spell level +1, three of Angela's classes benefit +23% on at least half of their spells, and Grand Divina benefits +30%. Any equipment that increases spell level mildly favors Grand Divina (and Ninja Master); this is also true of the existing spell level +1/neutral element armor.

I think a mild advantage for Grand Divina actually make sense in an accessory, especially if the accessory is cursed: as the versatility mage, Grand Divina is more reliant on accessories to perform her multiple roles. Equipping a spell power accessory would limit her to one other slot, and she would have to choose between Whitelight Ring, Protect Earrings, and Magatama, for example. Her other classes would not be so limited in this way. The same argument could not be made for Ninja Master, though.

If you want to eliminate this advantage, you could instead implement the spell power increase simply as a larger gear bonus to m.atk than Crystal Ring. This would also have the benefit of boosting healing, making the accessory more universally useful. Crystal Ring and the helmet both give +2 gear bonus, and the weapon and armor both give +3. What would be a fair tradeoff for a reduction in MP regen?

As before, I see two options: you could implement this as either (1) a normal accessory that gives somewhere between a +4 and +6 gear bonus to m.atk for each –2 adjustment to MP regen on tics, with the option to wear one (0 net MP regen) or two (–2 net MP regen), or (2) a cursed accessory, non-cumulative with itself, that gives somewhere between a +8 and +10 gear bonus to m.atk and a –4 adjustment to MP regen (–2 net MP regen).

I prefer option (2), the more powerful, cursed option, to save the accessory slot and make it more of a commitment. I also prefer the gear bonus to the spell level increase, due to its impact on healing and therefore usefulness to non-primary caster classes.

If the spell power increase doesn't work, I still really like the idea of some type of benefit gained by trading MP regen. I focused on spell power because it's something basic and universal to any caster, and the classes that would most benefit from increased spell power would also be making the biggest sacrifice. There could be other options, though.

Edited May 19, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

59 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Crystal Ring.

It gives +2 main damage (i.e. INT) stat, at Lv 90 it got a Lv2 spell from 350 damage up to 365... yeah it could use a buff.

59 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

this is also true of the existing spell level +1/neutral element armor.

That armor gives +20~30% damage and prevents resistance, sure, but hitting a weakness is +50% damage. It isn't optimal for 24/7 use.

If you're looking for stupid OP spell damage boosts: pierce m.def.
Explosion damage vs L90 Shapeshifter went up from 365 to 553 when def was set to 0.
Shuriken vs Dark Lich: 212 -> 446

[rpschamp 0]

23 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

If you're looking for stupid OP spell damage boosts: pierce m.def.
Explosion damage vs L90 Shapeshifter went up from 365 to 553 when def was set to 0.
Shuriken vs Dark Lich: 212 -> 446

Negative MP regen for piercing m.def would certainly be a big sacrifice with a big payoff, and a novel mechanic, worthy of a cursed item. I think you may be joking though, I thought you said a 1.5 damage modifier was too much haha

I'm going to think on some of the other equipment/ideas you suggested. It looks like you're replacing one of the other Maia accessories; if Marble Ring will be used to teach Regeneration, then Leather Neckband should have something strong and basic too. This would be a good time to introduce a second learnable spell, if there are any good ideas.

Edited May 19, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

2 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Leather Neckband should have something strong and basic too.

I was thinking trading the HP steal ring to that spot and keep the more complex effects for later.

[rpschamp 0]

2 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I was thinking trading the HP steal ring to that spot and keep the more complex effects for later.

I think that's sensible. Do you plan to still keep the yellow damage/luck-based HP recovery weapons from the Dwarf Village? I agree that having the HP recovery options available earlier in the game makes more sense in terms of class selection; this way a player may not be so desperate to go for a Heal Light class.

[praetarius5018 111]

That one stays where it is though with the rework to damage colors it has got an indirect nerf.
When I wrote "yellow damage" I damn well meant it.

[rpschamp 0]

So it will lose counters or crits. Probably a good idea, this weapon is damn near indispensable right now. An HP steal accessory or HP regen spell can compensate.

Edited May 19, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

The other way around - it will only trigger on crits and counter.

[rpschamp 0]

Got it. Still a great weapon for my main man Hawk who I always run on Luck-overdrive.

[rpschamp 0]

On 5/17/2020 at 3:01 PM, praetarius5018 said:

We've already weapons that can add status effects on any base attack, other status effects cause bugs, hi there sleep..

Is Snowman bugged on attacks as well?

[praetarius5018 111]

Very much so.

[rpschamp 0]

What do you think about putting Snowman effect on Freya instead of Chibikko? As of now, there is only one way to apply Snowman, through Rune Master's Cold Blaze. Since Snowman is bugged on attack, it has to be added through a spell. Freya would be a good vehicle for another Snowman option, also in concept.

The effects of Lise's other summons make sense thematically:

- Marduk, Star Lancer - an ancient Babylonian God associated with astrology among other things, i.e. the Silence of the cosmos

- Jormungand, Dragon Master - also Nordic, but associated with the serpent, i.e. Poison

- Lamia Naga - mythical Hindu serpent, associated with charm/trance, i.e. Sleep (spelling is correct; the n at the end of Lamian is the Japanese/Hindi nasal)

But Freya? Snowman makes sense more than Chibikko: Vanadis and Freya are the most Nordic/northern-themed class and summon, and Snowman is the most Nordic/northern-themed status effect, also a pagan/Yule symbol.

I don't get where Chibikko comes in, except perhaps as a symbol of dominance. Also, we already have other weapons and spells to add this effect. Also, many players avoid this effect due to lost experience.

EDIT: This would also add something nice to Vanadis, which she needs since the after-battle heal will become more accessible.

Edited May 20, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

"More accessible" is relative. The only additional option would the cursed ring.
And losing an item slot is imo very expensive.

Dunno, as buggy as snowman is (turn a needle bird to snow and the game goes to lala land)... what do other think of this?

[rpschamp 0]

I didn't realize that Snowman was buggy on spell with Needle Bird. (Goddamn Needle Birds. Always something.) I guess I need to play Rune Master more often. I wonder if the developers realized this too and switched Freya to Chibikko because of it.

Even with the bug, I would still take Snowman on Freya. But I certainly see why a developer would not.

Edited May 20, 2020 by rpschamp

[rpschamp 0]

Leaf Coat is another option. Freya's chariot kicks up dust, including leaves? (Leaf-ing them in the dust?) The mythical Freya/Vanadis wears a cloak of falcon feathers... not far from a Leaf Coat? For me, it's more of a stretch than Snowman, but less of a stretch than Chibikko.

Edited May 20, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

Nah, Leaf Coat is meant as a special something for leaf type damage that is otherwise not too useful.

[smileless 0]

Maybe have Vanadise final weapon remove the chibiko status inflicted from Freya?

Snowman makes a lot of sense for her but due to the game going apeshit with the snowman status I think it might be better to avoid it.

[praetarius5018 111]

as usual:
Vanadise can already do near everything.
heal, has the 4 main buffs, physical attack only slightly behind Duran, can tank if you give her a shield, maybe something else I'm forgetting.
If she now had drawback free nuking as well - when wouldn't you take her?

[rpschamp 0]

48 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

as usual:
Vanadise can already do near everything.
heal, has the 4 main buffs, physical attack only slightly behind Duran, can tank if you give her a shield, maybe something else I'm forgetting.
If she now had drawback free nuking as well - when wouldn't you take her?

Star Lancer has two saber spells that can be used for saber/resist, an extra accessory slot (no need for Whitelight Ring), higher physical attack, a better status effect with her summon (even if Vanadis had Snowman), and good support spells in Aura Wave and Energy Ball.

Vanadis has Heal Light. Not as important if someone else knows Heal Light. (I think the item restrictions and regen ring will balance out with respect to Heal Light's importance.)

All Lise's classes have shields.

I don't think Vanadis's nuking requires a drawback. Anyways, Chibikko is more powerful than Snowman. Just less annoying.

EDIT: I think most players would rather take a bugged Snowman that they can't use on Needlebirds than Chibikko.

Edited May 20, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

29 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I get that Snowman is bugged; still I think most players would rather take a bugged Snowman that they can't use on Needlebirds than Chibikko.

It is not only needlebirds, those are one of two species where I know that it causes a crash.

If you want to argue that snowman has nothing else that causes it - after that change it would be the same for chibikko being only available via body change.

[rpschamp 0]

15 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

It is not only needlebirds, those are one of two species where I know that it causes a crash.

If you want to argue that snowman has nothing else that causes it - after that change it would be the same for chibikko being only available via body change.

Chibikko also has weapon effects and Necromancer's Great Demon, which Snowman does not.

Also, Snowman is a generally more useful status effect.

If Snowman were so bugged that Rune Master couldn't use it, then I would agree. But Rune Master is still a favorite of Angela's classes in Sin of Mana, largely because of multi-target Cold Blaze. Through Rune Master, it has already been play-tested.

Edited May 20, 2020 by rpschamp

[praetarius5018 111]

17 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Through Rune Master, it has already been play-tested.

then explain the birds or other recently found status related crashes?

[rpschamp 0]

13 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

then explain the birds or other recently found status related crashes?

I can't. Are you thinking of taking away Snowman from Cold Blaze? This might be a good idea, to get rid of it entirely. Some players report stun-lock by repeat casting. Stun-lock should never be an option.

Apart from thematic arguments, mostly I don't like Snowman being stuck on one class.

Getting rid of it would certainly make Rune Master less of an obvious choice for Angela.

Edited May 20, 2020 by rpschamp