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Character Classes

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There's levels of cracked. And Ragnarok Terra is an 11.

And I said, "dude, why don't you just go up to 10 and make 10 more cracked?"

And Ragnarok Terra was like:



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I'm lost on this, are the classes supposed to do anything for the character? Or is it just a label? Because with the "build" reflecting their class, all I'm thinking of is The Last Remnant where you got passives based off of the class that you currently are. 

Edited by Augestein

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I'm gonna state again for the record that I think it is an extremely poor idea to not have class abilities for every esper. Ragnarok needs a class. Bahamut needs a class. Carbunkl needs a class. Why does Phoenix get a build but not Carbunkl? Yeah, it might not be the best idea NOW, since you don't get a lot of benefit from it, but the entire point of classes in a game is to A) open up new options you hadn't considered before, and B) to give you reasons to try offbeat builds. It doesn't serve our cause to skip Espers just 'cause no one builds them primary'. This is the opportunity to GIVE them a reason to build them primary. 

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Suggestions for Fenrir Shadow:

Fenrir is more of the support build of Shadow, and "Shinobi" is really just another word for Ninja, so replace that class name with Saboteur and focus more on the ninja's historical role of spying/sabotage/subterfuge, some possibilities being:
Shadow's knives/shurikens can set poison/sap (it's weird that ninjas used poison all the time but the party's actual ninja can't)
Gray magic has no cast time
Phoenix Downs use the Life spell as their effect
Fight doesn't cause counter-attacks, or causes them less often (Ninjas should be able to attack from the shadows and not get countered or they're not very good ninjas)

Edited by Deschain

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OK, rough draft of class ideas in. Every class gets two bonuses.

Before we start, may I point out that "No class until 10 in a given esper" is....not the best idea for BNW? Some classes gain 10 in a given esper early (vig Sabin), while other classes will take a while to get 10 in a given esper (healer/mage Terra). This hurts the fluidity of builds, forcing the player to aim straight for 10 in one esper to get their bonus before branching out, even though that's rarely a wise idea.

More appropriately, I'd say that

  • For WoB, 5 in any given esper qualifies as a class
  • For mid-WoR, ? in any given esper qualifies as a class (somewhere between 5-10)
  • For end-WoR, 10-12 in a given esper qualifies as a class

What exact formula / mechanic / programming is used is up for debate. I'm giving a rough estimate. You really need class to take into account the ratio of any given esper to the total amount of ELs taken. That way, you're not "forced" to take 10 of single esper early, since the game will generally reward you with a class just for taking your natural specialization.

That said:



Mage (Base)
Battlemage (Bismark)  ---  Morph delay is shorter; Break and Storm cast faster
     QuickMorph is good, but I heavily advocate for an Image nerf if this is to be done. Let terra fall down a lot & then pick herself back up again quickly. I've seen at least one or two others comment that Image could get dropped down to 1/2 chance of staying up. I also advocate for making Smoke Bombs much more expensive, and for making Refract cost a good bit more MP. It's a powerful buff, 100 GP or 15 MP undersells it.

     Quickcast: Break/Storm is unfitting for Battlemage. She never uses those moves. Battlemage Terra will either use the tier-3's to snipe an element (like Atma), or she'll use Cure/Life for healing. Quickcast: Break/Storm is something to give to caster Terra.

     Alternatively, find a second bonus for Battlemage Terra? 11 Phoenix, 9 Bismark for Terra is a very real Red Mage build and it seems like that build should be getting quickcast of some spells, maybe even quickfight. After all, the whole point of such a build is to have a fighter Terra with globs of MP for healing & elemental sniping. That, & quickcast + quickfight fits the "Red Mage" theme.

Black Mage (Maduin)  ---  MP+25%; all Fire/Ice/Bolt spells & Ultima cast faster

     MP+25% is....meaningless. If Terra's building magic, she's just going to take the Magic Cube or Circlet anyways. Maybe slightly useful for the WoR if she's built up enough Carbunkl, but then you run into the question of wheth
er or not you even get the Black Mage class (See intro comments above). Axe this one.

     Quickcast: Tier-3's and Ultima is a way to go, but I'd add Break/Storm to the list. After all, its a caster Terra who uses midgame Break/Storm. Honestly, quickcast: Break/Storm is a little more important then Tier-3's, since those are good enough anyways. Quickcast: Fire2 is pointless.

     I still recommend a magical damage plus for Black Mage Terra. MP Turbo, a boring Magic+10 to her stat, something. One of Maduin terra's biggest problems is that Maduin is poor magic esper. He's a hybrid esper. So magic Terra generally only ends up with a small amount of magic, since she also wants Unicorn & Carbunkl levels. Some way to boost that, so that the player actually feels stronger with magic, is desirable. Quickcast: all black magic is a way to go about that, I supposed, though I think something like "MP Turbo when Morph" is more interesting?

     And....if I'm on the subject of caster Terra having poor espers, I'll spitball the idea of

  • Tritoch: Magic+1 / MP+15
  • Maduin: Stamina+2

     There, proper magic esper for Terra. Late coming, but Tritoch, the esper that started the game, giving Terra her premier caster build? Fitting. Daddy helping her control her esper self better? Fitting. Tritoch is also Terra only, so this doesn't create a "house of cards falling down" effect. Doesn't sacrifice stam Terra, and even revives the long-dead stam+2 Mog, which can be used to create for more interesting Geomancer stuff. Heavy Maduin's generally not a good idea in the WoB anyways, so it's not like anything is lost this way. The only oddity is early stam Terra and late mag Terra, but with stamina getting Cover/Counter, maybe early stam Terra has some uses?

     Course, with that idea above, MP Turbo is no longer needed. Just stick with Quickcast: Black Magic.

White Mage (Unicorn)  ---  HP+25%; all Cure and Life spells cast faster
     Axe the HP+25%. Why is an HP build getting a free Red Cap effect? Replace with "Ignores Reflect". Terra's the best candidate for such a bonus (Carbunkl summon & Cures). Just as importantly, it's less of a buff (to an all ready good build), and more of expanding her options. White Mage Terra is a strong build, she doesn't need big buffs.

     Quickcast: Cure/Life is neat, though I recommend it more for Phoenix Terra. For reasons stated in the Battlemage section, and in the Red Mage section.

Omega Mage (Tritoch) ---  Regen MP while morphed; Remedy and Regen spells cast faster
     MP Regen for Omega Mage....I guess? Is her MP that big of a concern? Mishrak's one to ask though. Being fair, though, it's not bad. Might actually be fine, just a fairly minor buff to a build that mostly doesn't care to much for MP.

     Faster Remedy & Regen(X) is fine & appropriate.

Red Mage (Phoenix) ---  HP/MP+12.5%Cure (1-2), Fire (1-2), and Life (1) cast faster

     For the former, I'm going to say to replace it with Quickfight. 11 Phoenix, 9 Bismark is a real possibility, and Quickfight is decent consolation for not getting Quickmorph. Also, Red Mage is Fight + Magic, so you want a bonus to Fight and Magic. Not a bonus to bulk & Magic.

     That, and I think the HP/MP+ is unfitting.

     Quickcast is neat, but you should not force a match between Terra & Locke here. They're separate characters who use their magic differently, there will be differences. Quickcast: Life or Fire 2 is solid for X-Mage Locke, but for a lategame Terra (Phoenix is lategame)? They're pointless. I'd say just give her Quickcast: Cure/Life. If you're really concerned about Quickcast of Cure3/Life2, then have it only reduce the cast time to $10. That way, both Quickfight & Quickcast are just taking off a small $10 delay. It's not much, but it's still useful, and Phoenix is an all around solid esper anyways.

You can leave Ragnarok & Bahamut alone, but Carbunkl should have a class bonus. As others have also said, I hate the idea of the class system being used to straight-jacket what was once a free form system, where new things could be discovered. Despite me being the poster child for "OCD build balance, running the build guide", I'm not going to asume that the builds I've put up are the be-all, end-all. I know other veterans are different.

     Just as importantly, a 12 Carbunkl build isn't completely pointless. +300 MP has it's uses for "My magic is ultra expensive" Terra, especially with Maduin being a rather poor magic esper. +300 MP means Terra can ignore Circlet, maybe just grab a Red Cap or Stat Stick, and still have 800 - 999 MP for nuking stuff.

     Furthermore, if you say "Carbunkl Terra is stupid", I retort that Ifrit Locke is stupid. Yet you gave him a class.

     For the sake of not straight-jacketing the once free-form build system, for the completion's sake, for the sake of this not actually being a completely stupid idea (Bismark/Tritoch is stupid; Carbunkl has some purpose), and for the sake of this esper being the other key esper of mag Terra, please give Carbunkl actual bonuses.

     (Granted, my argument does become a lot weaker if you take my suggestion above of turning Tritoch into Terra's primary magic esper, with a bonus of Magic +1 / MP+15. If you don't do that, my argument stands. If you do do that, I'd still do it for completion's sake).

General (Base)
Holy Knight (Ramuh)  ---  HP+25%; all Swords get some kind of bonus(?)
     Again, dislike the HP+25%. I could maybe get behind an HP+12.5%. That way, Hero Ring still has a point, but she's still getting a minor HP buff.

     All weapons getting a bonus, I agree. "Two-Hand is 75%" exactly the kind of small bonus we want, but unfortunately, Celes never gained two-handed weapons aside from Excalibur. It's also not a general benefit, it locks her into specific gear set-ups. Only idea I have here is Quickfight. Coupled with HP+12.5%, it's two nice, small buffs. Oh, and it's a callback to WT's vig/spd Celes. <_<

Dark Knight (Phantom)  ---  No dual-wield damage penaltyMerton and Demi/Quartr cast faster
     Unfortunately, I think only Setzer can safely be given the "No dual-wield penalty." Even without Morph or self Berserk, no dw penalty is still a mighty 33% multiplier to dual-wielding Celes. Illumina/Wing Edge would be doing a minimum of 5.5k - 6k damage. Add on Holy procs and Wing Edge Throws, and Celes is suddenly out-damaging Morph Terra even without Berserk.

     What happened to Runic: Counterattack? That seemed flavorful. It's minor, sure, but it's solid, and it gives Dark Knight Celes some reason to actually, you know, not equip the Leo's Crest?

     Quickcast: Merton/Demi/Quartr seems arbitrary. Why? What purpose does she have quickcasting those spells? Give her Quickcast: Remedy/Regen.

Valkyrie (Crusader)  ---  Inherent CoverSafe and Haste cast faster
     Quickcast of Grey Magic is fair enough for a support build, though then the question is "Valkyrie or Crusader" for quickcast: grey magic.

     Inherent kinda redundant with Leo's Crest, Knight Cape, and Hero Ring. Especially the last of those, which sounds like quite the important relic for this build. Why not something like "Cover: single-target Magic attacks"?

     A Runic bonus is another idea. I'd recommend either Valkyrie or Magic Knight for "Friendly Runic" (ignores ally spells). Huge convenience for....people like me. >_> Though I'd personally want it on Magic Knight, so that "Friendly Runic" is available for most of the game, instead of only endgame.

Vanguard (Alexandr)  ---  Inherent CounterLife and Regen spells cast faster
     What happened to "Can Counter ANY attack?" That seemed a lot neater than "Free Black Belt / Leo's Crest / Zantetsuken". Maybe give Vanguard the "Can Cover single-target spells" instead? She's got the HP to face tank a Flare. This creates an actual reason to build mass Alexander. Maybe not the greatest of reasons, but an actual reason. Cyan/Celes do not have to get exactly the same bonus.

     Quickcast: white magic is fair enough, I suppose. Not inspired, but not bad.

Magic Knight (Siren)  ---  Runic restores 2x MP; all Ice & Bolt spells cast faster
     Why not Quickcast: Grey Magic? Let Siren by the utility mage, let Shiva be the offensive mage. Celes' grey magic has the downside of only being single-target (no HasteX or otherwise). This gives a nice speed buff to said spells. Quickcast: white magic can be ignored, since Siren Celes has the speed for quickcasting Cure and Life. Quickcast of Rerise is more questionable, but that's a powerful enough buff that I say leave it one of Celes' weaker classes.

Holy Mage (Shiva)  ---  MP+25%; Holy, Merton, and all Cure spells cast faster
     How about just Quickcast: all black magic? Let Shiva be the offensive mage, let Siren by the utility mage.

     Again, don't do MP+25%. It'll just get overwritten by Magic Cube or Circlet, or be redundant with Hero Ring or Red Cap.

Cleric (Seraph) ---  HP+25%; Rerise, Remedy, and all Cure spells cast faster

     Again, no HP+25%. HP+12.5%, maybe, though Cleric Celes is gonna be bulky anyways. Stil, maybe?

     Quickcast: white magic seems fine. Just be very cautious about quickcasting of Rerise though. That's....a really powerful buff. Rerise all ready wins fights. (Raise MP cost of Rerise/Seraph?)

     Something to consider with Seraph is that Seraph can be paired with any other esper here. 11 Seraph, 9 Ramuh? 11 Seraph, 9 Crusader? 11 Seraph, 9 Siren? All possibilities. So, Cleric Celes needs the most general bonuses possible. Bonuses that any of her "secondary espers" can make use of. What you have kinda fits that critera, though HP+ is op.

Rogue (Base)
Fighter (Ramuh)  ---  Critical Attack rate up; all Swords get some kind of bonus(?)
     I feel bad for criticizing your Te/Ce ideas so heavily, so I'm going to say: I love crit+ for fighter Locke.

     I have no idea what kind of other bonus to give to vig Locke. Sorry. Just don't forget about daggers and knives.

Paladin (Kirin) ---  All Shields get some kind of bonus(?); Cure (1-2) cast faster

Thief (Ifrit)  ---  Steal always succeeds; Drain and all Bolt spells cast faster
     (You did Ifrit Locke with Steal bonuses. You have no excuse to not do Carbunkl Terra/Strago).

     According to Nowea, the point of a heavy Ifrit Locke is for speedy heals/revives. I'd add in that it's Locke's best build for quickly tossing a Remedy Item. I'd tailor the bonuses for Thief Locke around that. To further what he said, I could see 11 Ifrit:9 Phoenix being a real build to pursue. 11 Ifrit, 4 Phoenix, 5 Ramuh or Kirin? 11 Ifrit:9 Ramuh? 11 Ifrit:9 Kirin? I have a harder time seeing these ones. (Maybe the Ifrit:Ramuh?). But I can definitely see the purpose of an 11 Ifrit:9 Phoenix build. So, at the least, you should consider class bonuses that complement caster Locke, yet are different from his Phoenix bonuses.

     If you're going to do a Steal bonus, do something like "Higher chance of rare steal" (not 100% chance. Just a small improvement to the odds). Doing this interferes with the whole "You build speed to improve Steal's odds" mechanic. Alternatively, do something that makes Steal/Mug more viable in combat?

     Quickcast: Bolt is....interesting? Quickcast of Bolt 2 I guess becomes a real damage option for this build, though it requires a lot of Phoenix for the MP?

Red Mage (Phoenix) ---  HP/MP+12.5%Cure (1-2), Fire (1-2), and Life (1) cast faster

     Quickcasting of these spells works for Locke.

     Axe the HP/MP+ though. Phoenix Locke is a giant blob of HP/MP as is. Replace with Quickfight. Like with Terra, 11 Phoenix:9 Ramuh is a real possibility for Locke. Quickfight & Quickcast: tier1/2 spells is exactly the kind of thing the works for him. Heck, even a pure Phoenix Locke could make use of a Quickfight. Like, say, using Valiance to quickly off a Charmed ally in the Isis fight.

Engineer (Base)
     By the way, perhaps Golem & Unicorn should switch build names? Sentinels are guardians, which is exactly what Unicorn Edgar's main gimmick is. Phalanx seems like it'd fit more with Golem, since that's more the traditional "tank" Edgar.

Alchemist (Siren)  ---  Status-setting attacks/spells ignore enemy stamina; gain elemental resistance from equipped weapons
     Huh? These are interesting & thematic. Elemental resist kinda encourages equipment of Elemental Blades even into the lategame. That's neat.

     Perfect status setting edgar scares me. On the other hand, I'm very glad to have some way of increasing the accuracy of status effects. Aren't most of Edgar's statuses single target instead of AoE? BioBlaster (Poison) and Flash (Blind) I don't think are too bad. Perfect accuracy SlowX seems like a nifty tool. Added accuracy to NoiseBlaster is concerning though.

     Maybe nerf the NoiseBlaster's base accuracy? That way, if you really want to Muddle control randoms, you need to build Alchemist Edgar? Edgar's got a lot of powerful options that work regardless of his build. Making more of his options actually require specialization to work well would go far to balancing Edgar. Make it so that vig Edgar can't control randoms with AoE status as well, he has to rely more on ST status or AutoCrossbow.

Sentinel (Golem)  ---  Inherent CounterTools delay is shorter
     I asked for Quicktools, I had better support it. >_> Yeah, this solidifies Golem Edgar as the "grounded" vig Edgar. Shouldn't interfere too badly with Alchemist Edgar, since that one has speed & magic. (And if instaTools is op, it could just be $10 Tools).

     Inherent Counter here is....a case where it's not bad. Edgar doesn't generally equip the Black Belt, leaving only the Zantetsuken for some lategame counters. (And I don't mind overriding this portion of Zant, since its vig+/spd+ is still important utility for Sentinel Edgar). This also works well with the counter/cover spears, though he'll have reduced odds.

Phalanx (Unicorn)  ---  All Shields get some kind of bonus(?); Safe and Slow spells cast faster
     Dunno what shield bonus you could give, though I could get behind the idea. I know that, personally, I'm looking at two-handed Unicorn Edgar more, to help make up for the damage loss from not being Golem. Having a reason to equip shields could help.

     'Nother thing that could help is having something like +6%, +9%, or +12% cover rate. That's this build's gimmick, but Unicorn Edgar still doesn't exactly have a large cover rate. Also still leaves him with status vulnerabilities from his low stamina.

     Neutral to Quickcast: Safe/Slow. Personally would rather the above stuff primarily.

     Actually, it's probably a good idea to let the community playtest Unicorn Edgar before finalizing any class bonus ideas. >_> Still, I'll leave what I have up there.

Dragoon (Palidor) ---  Two-handed damage bonus is 75% instead of 50%; Haste and Float spells cast faster
     I love the two-handed bonus idea. It's a small but useful bonus.

     Quickcast: Haste/Float, I'm neutral towards. Quickcast of grey magic is definitely something that works somewhere for Edgar, and Dragoon Edgar isn't pure dps. He will be spending some time running support.

Monk (Base)
Shaman (Stray) -
AKA "Stam-WOW" Sabin  ---  HP Regen rate is doubled; gain elemental resistance from equipped weapons
     Solidify Shaman Sabin, I can dig that. Especially love the doubling HP regen rate.

Godhand (Golem) - AKA "Slap-Chop" Sabin  ---  Critical Attack Rate UpBlitz delay is shorter
     I can dig this. Small but useful buffs.

Guardian (Terrato) - AKA "Schticky" Sabin ---  Inherent Cover; Sleep and Drain spells cast faster
     Lol, Quickcast on Sabin. Might as well let him quickcast all of his magic.

     Inherent Cover ain't too bad. Could add in what I recommended for Vanguard Celes, "Guard against st magic attacks as well." Still inherent Cover ain't bad. Dun think 11 Terrato:9 Stray Sabin necessarily wants to equip the Hero Ring/Knight Cape.

Samurai (Base)
Swordsmaster (Bismark) ---  +25% Physical DamageBushido delay is shorter
     Axe the physical damage +25%. Too big a buff. At most, use +12.5%.

Templar (Kirin) ---  Inherent CoverCure spells cast faster
     Eh, I wouldn't use inherent Cover here. Templar Cyan is a solid build, I'd rather he be forced to take a Knight Cape if he wants to Cover allies.

     Quickcast: white magic, otoh, is something I like for Cyan. Seems like Templary Cyan is where you'd want quickcast of regen though, since he's got the stamina for it. Maybe swap? Templar gets Regen/Life, and Vanguard gets Cures?

Vanguard (Alexandr)  ---  Inherent CounterLife and Regen spells cast faster
     Not sure I agree with inherent counter either. It lets him counter with Mutsuno, sure, but that's it. Not sure that's really worth a class bonus. Again, "covers st magic attacks" is more in line with what you want. Put that obscene amount of HP to use. (Don't necessarily have to do that thing for all the HP+60 dudes. Just giving an idea of what to consider).

     Something to consider is 11 Alex:9 Bismark as a very real build possibility. So, again, inherent counter is probably bad. Quickcast: white is all right. Maybe swap them? Let Templar gets Regen/Life, Vanguard gets Cures?

Ninja (Base)
Assassin (Phantom) ---  Critical Attack rate up; Pre-Emtpive Attack rate up
     Me like.

Shinobi (Fenrir) 

     I do like the idea of Back Guard here.

     People on Discord are kicking around a buff to Item. It's.........not a bad idea, but I wouldn't do it without making some Items more expensive (Tonic, Potion, Remedy, maybe Phoenix Down). Items the ST healing command, it's good at it's job, pure speed builds are definitely in the best place to abuse it, and Shadow's the only controllable character without AoE healing. Still, he's got the raw speed. Maybe Quickitem could go to someone else or something, iunno.

Hunter (Base)
     The character that only Nowea sems to have any idea of what to do with.

     Still throwing out my idea for having the odds of different Rage attacks be affected by stamina. Putting this idea here because maybe some ideas for class bonuses for Gau would be made clearer if that were a thing, since spd/stam would have more clear differences between them??

Beastmaster (Stray)
Berserker (Fenrir)

Gambler (Base)
Undertaker (Shoat)
- AKA "Slotzer" ---  No dual-wield damage penaltyDoom and Poison/Bio cast faster
     First one is solid. >_>

     Second one is just following up with more minor buffs of utility damage. Not necessarily bad, though Slots will end up being used most of the time, b/c why wouldn't you want to use the equivalent to a Meteor or StopX?

Pilgrim (Starlet) - AKA "The Bank"(*) --- Inherent CounterRemedy and Regen spells cast faster
     Hmm.....stam Setzer is definitely a character who feels the harshness of being unable to get three relics. He wants Heiji's, Hero Ring, and Black Belt, for GP Toss + counter/cover shenanigans with Dice. Inherent Counter or Inherent Cover both open up that as a real possibility. I'm not 100% sure on it though. My instincts don't like it for some reason, even if it doesn't sound bad analytically.

     Quickcast: Remedy & Regen(X) is fair enough.

Cleric (Seraph) ---  HP+25%; Rerise, Remedy, and all Cure spells cast faster
     No HP+. Especially not for HP Setzer of all people.

     Quickcast: white is fair. Gives Setzer some form of speed, mostly related to his healing role. Quickcast: Rerise, again, is very powerful. Rerise all ready wins fights. (Up the MP cost of Rerise/Seraph?) Though quickcasting of Rerise is probably less op for Setzer than for Celes/Relm, simply because of the speed differentials. Maybe limit Quickcast: Rerise to Setzer only?

Moogle (Base)
Druid (Shoat)  ---  Summon delay is shorter; Break, Quake, and Poison/Bio cast faster
    I feel bad about chewing you out previously still, so I'm going to actually support the "Quick Summon," despite everyone else not doing so. It might mean we actually use summons for offensive purposes for once. Also works without Sage Stone, so Druid Mog has another option besides Dance/Rod.

     I'd actually replace it with "Infinite Summon." QuickShoat probably shouldn't be a thing, whereas QuickMaduin and QuickTerrato are only good for one shot. OTOH, Infinite Shoat is meaningless, since you only ever need to cast it once per fight. OTOH, infinite Maduin & infinite Terrato open up possibility for a real summoner build. Though then there's the issue of differentiating Summoner Mog from X-Mog. So you'd have to re-work the Maduin and Terrato spells. Which isn't a bad thing. It ain't like they're being used anyways.

     Quickcast: black magic is fine. That & Summoner helps push Druid Mog more towards his Magic and away from Dance/Rod. something I've been hoping would happen for a very long time. So I'm in support of anything that pushes that.

Geomancer (Maduin) ---  Dance always succeeds; (?)
     Again, hate "always succeed." Part of the reason for building stamina on Mog is to get Dance to succeed: handing it to me for free cheapens the whole purpose. If you absolutely must do this, axe the whole "stamina success" mechanic. Only Geomancer gets a boosted Dance rate. Druid Mog has to suffer occasional stumbles whenever he wants Snowman Jazz.

     'Nother strike against this is that switching Dances ain't really all that hot. Geomancer Mog really only needs one Dance per battle. Maybe, maybe, for a boss fight, he'll pick his one main Dance (Blues or Suite; maybe Jazz for AoE) and occasionally switch over to Desert Aria for some Image chance or Wind Song for good Sun Bath chance. Still, it ain't much. Dance........IMO, still ain't in the best of places. IMO, best deployment of Geomancer Mog would actually be a HeroRing/BlackBelt/Punisher set-up that auto-Dances one of Earth or Forest. Auto Heal/Cover party, and auto Dance/Counter attacks.

     I'll point you to my comments under Black Mage Terra, where I mentioned the idea of Tritoch being Mag+1 / MP+15 and Maduin being stam+2. Maybe pure stamina might reveal better class bonus ideas for Geomancer?

Dragoon (Palidor)
- AKA "Mogoon" ---  Two-handed damage bonus is 75% instead of 50%; Haste and Float spells cast faster
     First is cool.

     Huh, Dragoon getting Quickcast: grey magic. Fair enough.

Guardian (Terrato)  ---  Inherent Cover; Sleep and Drain spells cast faster
     Quickcast: Drain is pretty interesting for Guardian Mog, since he's got the HP to really do some damage with Drain. Still don't think it'll actually work out in practice.

     Again, see my comments on the other HP+60 builds. I think something more can be done for these guys. What we have now ain't the hottest.

Blue Mage (Base)
     Strago's actually a really hard one, methinks, since all of his builds are pretty similar to each other. "Support Mage with some nuclear options." Might indicate a balance problem with strago's chassis. I do know that I advocate for making Refract more expensive, since Image is so good of a buff. Also still advocate for a more expensive but also stronger Dark magic, since that gives Strago a real dps option, but at the cost of some serious MP burn.
Beyond that....I'm stuck.

(Black Omen can serve as the more modest nuclear option, with a lower MP cost. I know you currently have it the other way around, but I think this way works better mechanically. Probably because Black Omen is AoE while Dark can be doublecast, so it works better with Dark being dps and Black Omen not being too op).

EDIT: Coming back to this, I think, like Relm, we can resolve this by having Shiva Strago focus on pure offense, Zoneseek Strago focus on support, and Odin Strago focus on defense?

Sorcerer (Zoneseek) ---  MP+25%; X-Zone, Dark, and Ice spells cast faster
     Axe the MP+. Less pointless here than for the girls, but my instinct still says its an ultimately pointless bonus.

     Quickcast: black magic is interesting. I'm....huh. Problem is that it's mostly helpful for sniping elemental weaknesses, or getting X-Zone off a little earlier for clearing randoms. And if we're talking my Dark change above, seems more like something you'd want for Shiva Strago. (Unlimited power and all that). Maybe Quickcast: grey magic for Sorcerer Strago? It might not match Relm, but again, it doesn't have to. Strago's old & experienced, Relm's young and impulsive.

     Still needs something besides Quickcast: grey magic though. Esp. since that only real benefit to that is X-Shell. Maybe Quicklore instead? Let this build be more the support mage with a nuclear option (Black Omen), while Shiva is more raw power?

Wizard (Shiva) ---  +25% Magical DamageStop and Osmose spells cast faster
     Reduce magic damage bonus to just +12.5%. More modest, but still not bad.

     Again, why not let this build get the Quickcast: black magic? This is Strago's raw power build, give it the raw power tools. Let Zoneseek be the more "mixed" caster, and Sage be the pure defense.

Sage (Odin)  ---  HP Regen rate is doubled; Lore delay is shorter
     Yes to the former. The latter, see my comments above. I think it's probably better for Zoneseek.

     This is one case where I won't fuss and scream about HP+12.5%. For....obvious reasons. You know, having made HP+15 / Stam+1 Strago a thing for WT and all. >_> Still advocate it. Might actually be better for Counter/Cover Strago than raw stamina. Also means that Odin + Shiva/Zoneseek is a real thing, ya' know. Which is helpful for such a late esper.

     Again, going by what I said above, this is Strago's defensive build. Leave the utility mage stuff (Quicklore) to Zoneseek Strago. Let this build focus on defense.

     See my argument under Terra above.

Pictomancer (Base)
     With the bonuses I recommended below for stam & spd Relm, it might be fitting to swap class names. spd Relm becomes "Priestess" since she's the healer Relm. stam Relm becomes "Illusionist" since she's dealing with brush gimmicks & Interceptor and whatnot.

Sorceress (Zoneseek) ---  MP+25%; Meteor, Flare, and Fire spells cast faster
     Axe the MP+.

     Quickcast: Black magic makes sense here.

Priestess (Starlet) - AKA "Love You Long Time" Relm ---  Summon delay is shorter; Rerise, Remedy, and Regen spells cast faster
    This is gimmicky defensive Relm. Illusionist is speedy healer Relm. Stop mistaking this build for healer Relm. : )

     Quicksummon works better for Relm than it did for Mog, certainly. But not for stam Relm. Quicksummon is Illustionist Relm's job. I've done it before with quite nice success. Thanks to her speed & MP, I caused a mass extinction of Nastidons through global warming. It was nice. Might have to nerf Bahamut to prevent spd Relm from outdamaging mag Relm's Meteor though. Or re-work Bahamut.

     Do something defensive. stam Relm can't really use counter/cover that well, she's stuck with status defense & RegenX + Black Heart. She's a gimmick build, she needs help. This is a case where HP+12.5% isn't too bad of an idea. Again, I'd let Relm actually get Interceptor without having to kill Shadow, and then give an Interceptor buff. Not damage buff, but defensive buff. Again, this is defensive Relm, except it's not working well. This build needs actual defenses, let's use class bonuses to fix that. (Oh, and free Interceptor. No killing Shadow, just remove that. Get all dreams in WoR. Because killing Shadow is stupid).


     Something to consider is someone's idea of "If ally gets hit, Relm auto-heals them with Brush." Kinda like instant-Potion from FFIX, only with Relm only. The corollary is that, if she's got a Rod equipped, she smacks the enemy instead. stam Relm is gimmick Relm, brushes are gimmicks that ain't's a match made in heaven. It's basically a variant of Cover, after all. So maybe Relm's chances of brush healing is stamina dependent. You don't need speed for auto-healing, so it's redundant on Illusionist Relm. That, and I dislike giving Relm's healing build (which is speed, not stamina) awesome grey magic tools.

     Let Zoneseek Relm be the black mage specialist, Illusionist Relm be the white mage specialist (that's what she is), and stam Relm be the grey mage specialist (since she's the true gimmick build).

  • stam Relm can get the "Brush Cover" for auto-healing & buff setting, plus a personal defense of some kind. Interceptor+ or HP+12.5% or something. Axe the quickcast: Remedy & RegenX. It's fitting, yeah, but stam Relm needs these other things first and foremost.
  • mag Relm gets Quickcast: black magic and something else. Attacker Relm.
  • spd Relm gets Quickcast: white magic & Quicksummon. Nerf/change Bahamut to prevent her from outdamaging mag Relm. Healer Relm with first strike utility.

Illusionist (Ifrit) ---  Brushes may set image; (?)
     This is speedy healer Relm. stam Relm is defensive Relm. Please stop mistaking this for some sort of gimmick build. : (

     Quicksummon and Quickcast: white magic make sense here, but with all her speed, she doesn't really need it. Still, they're the only thing I can think of for this build, and they ain't bad.


One thing I notice a lot is that a lot of "Quickcast: Such and Such Spell" seems arbitrarily assigned. I know it's an easy bonus to give out, but don't do it. A lot of these builds have no purpose of quickcasting the spell that you've assigned to them.

Also, for class bonuses, you want to expand the character, open up options, or provide minor buffs to what they all ready are good at. You don't want to replace critical gear or hand out huge buffs. Do stuff like "Can Cover more types of attacks," "Damage +12.5%," etc, etc. Not "Inherent Cover" or "Free Power Glove" or "HP+25%".

Also, HP/MP espers do not have to give the same bonus to different people. You aren't doing that with vig/mag/spd/stam espers, why do that for HP/MP espers? The characters are different, even if they're similar. Therefore, even if the buff is similar, it does not mean that it has to be the same. Case in point: Phoenix Terra vs Phoenix Locke, or Alex Celes vs. Alex Cyan.

Lastly, there are several cases here where I think the poorly assigned class bonuses isn't your fault. It's more a problem with still not having figured out the balance / design of certain classes yet. Mostly looking at Strago, Relm, Geomancer, the HP+60 espers, possibly Gau. I got nothing for the HP espers, but I did recommend ideas for the others.


EDIT: Something I failed to consider: Is it possible to change "No dual wield penalty" into "Reduced dual wield penalty"? So, instead of no penalty, just weaken the penalty to 87.5% damage for both weapons? It ends up being the same as "Two-Handed Bonus Raised from 50% to 75%." That might not be quite so bad.

Edited by thzfunnymzn

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Spitballing Gau Ideas:

Beastmaster: Controllable Rage. Gau doesn't fly into a berserker frenzy when selecting Rage.

  • You still cannot switch Rages. When you hit "Rage" again, you just trigger the next attack in the Rage you all ready selected.
  • Green Cherry is still needed to allow switching Rage again.
  • This bonus allows Gau access to spot healing (Item/Regen) and some buffs/debuffs (HasteX) while Raging.

Berserker: Rage Counterattack. Gau now counterattacks with his actual Rage command, instead of his measly Fight. Still subject to 2/3 and 1/3 odds for the two attacks. Being on the non-stamina Gau helps control the power of this bonus.


Unfortunately, both these ideas are powerful & game-changing, which is something I tried to avoid with my suggestions. Rage Counterattack is definitely op with Rage as it currently is (see: Hurtmore counterattack). Still, it's another idea on the table.

EDIT: Last idea for determining class is to just do a straight "Whichever esper has the most ELs, that's your class. If two espers are tied, whichever one got there first determines class." Boom, simple. Flows perfectly with the mechanics, doesn't arbitrarily punish or reward certain builds, doesn't require any new events.

Edited by thzfunnymzn

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Hi all,

I used to lurk quite a bit at ID- I've posted a handful of times in the FFT 1.3 forum back there and _maybe_ once or twice in the BNW forum. Since a little before Arch came back and blew up ID, I've also been lurking here. I finally got around to making an account just so I could post in this thread (and now it'll give less friction for me to post some of my unrelated BNW questions...).

So, obviously my opinion means basically squat, but I have been following the mod for a while even though I only played part way through one really old version, only got to Atma in 1.8.4-ish (whichever version was right before adding ELs), and just now got to Vector in 1.8.6.

But, frankly, I'm not a fan of these ideas. I love the esper levels; I love that each character only gets some subset of espers; and I basically love everything about the mod. Let me try to articulate what I don't like about the classes discussion so far and you just take whatever points you think might be valid.

First of all, I find hidden mechanics to be annoying. Even when I played Pokemon, I hated having to look up Natures to see what they do to stats. I have very little time for video games, and I'm simply not going to sit with a guidebook (or printme/unlockme/web-page) open to reference constantly to see which spells I can cast quicker, or whether this dude has innate counter/cover, etc. I mean, it's fine if you're an old veteran and have committed this stuff to memory, but for the more casual among us who still enjoy optimizing, it detracts from the actual game.

Second, it's kind of a lot of complexity, relative to this kind of game. FF6 vanilla had very little complexity and you guys added just enough to make it interesting. But the fact that the espers are still the same no matter who equips them is a GOOD thing. I don't want to have to remember what Alex levels do to this character vs. that character.

Third, the classes are assuming/dictating what you are going to use the character for. Granted, in practice, it's probably going to be correct to assume that mag Edgar is going to play a particular role, but I find it annoying that just because I want to gain a certain combination of stats, the game will try to bottleneck me into playing a certain way. I like that "builds" are currently more free-form. I picked this combo of esper levels because *I* had a certain idea I wanted to accomplish, so just let me see if it worked out like I wanted. I could see this being frustrating for hybrid builds- maybe I wanted these stats on my hybrid Edgar, but instead I had to screw up my balance so I could get the mana battery bonus (or whatever). Sometimes trade-offs are cool to think about, but I could see this being frustrating.

Also, some of these characters have way too many classes. Celes has 7 listed in the OP as of my writing, not including the base class. It makes "designing" your teams overwhelming. That also exacerbates the difference in flexibility of the characters: we already know Celes is more flexible than Shadow- why add a multiplier to it? If there is something like a class system, can't it be limited to maybe 2 or 3 per character? Then you have something kind of like Secret of Mana 3, where each character had 2 options at each class upgrade point, making 4 final class outcomes, IIRC. It'll be easier to keep in your head, at least.

So those are my off-the-cuff thoughts on it. I hope I'm not stepping on too many toes with negative feedback as my first post here. I'll end by adding a few pleas to consider for this feature, not all of which are compatible with each other:

1. Keep the number of classes limited per character, even if they can equip many espers.

2. Maybe keep the classes purely cosmetic (you could even see if someone is willing to do custom sprites/portrait changes for the different classes. That would be a lot of work, but pretty neat). This is really what I hope for...

3. Please, please, put some in game documentation for the class bonuses if you have them.

4. Maybe nerf and/or decrease the scope of the bonuses. The quick-casting spells seems bizarre to me, but things like "increased counter rate" or "HP + 12.5%" or "decreased dance failure rate" seem less invasive. Also, limiting the bonus to one per class would be good, too.

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Did we already pitch Exorcist for Slotzer? If not, I'll suggest that. It sounds badass. It's a type of healer that deals with dark forces. It's even a wrestler's name!

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Thanks to everyone who's posted, both for and against. Just reminding y'all that this is something that's still firmly in "hey, wouldn't it be neat if..." phase, so everything I've posted is purely a rough draft any and all feedback is appreciated.

That said, a couple of general notes.

One, again, these ideas aren't set in stone. I only finished up this rough draft to give D and Seibaby a starting point as to the sort of things they may want to look into coding in for class bonuses. The prevalence of existing effects is simply due to the fact that I didn't want to bury them under a pile of new mechanics and so I only kept the best new ideas I had (which I then used fairly liberally). Feel free to suggest new ones and the list will evolve as necessary.

Two, the actual requirements for getting class are also not set in stone. This hasn't been coded yet and the real deciding factor will be what is and isn't possible. A progressive class system like Sword of Mana/SD3 has would be awesome, but I'm not going to break the bank with a single change like this. Ditto goes for explaining the class-system in game - there likely just will not be any real-estate for it. Again, feel free to pitch ideas.

Three... seriously, who in the hell is going to build a Carbunkl Terra? >.>

Edited by BTB

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pogeymanz & BTB, I'll keep those things in mind.

33 minutes ago, BTB said:

Three... seriously, who in the hell is going to build a Carbunkl Terra? >.>

As it currently stands, Carbunkl Terra has the greatest ability to spam tier-3's. Not saying its the best thing in the world, but if you're giving Ifrit Locke something...

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Also, in response to @pogeymanz in particular...

You make a good point(s), although I interpret these points to be "don't throw in something halfassed just because I want to see it happen" and "don't destroy the freeform build system that currently defines BNW". I assure you that I never add things to this mod without giving them an approrpiate (and often quite extensive) amount of consideration and that this notion will be kept very firmly in mind throughout.

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15 hours ago, BTB said:

Also, in response to @pogeymanz in particular...

You make a good point(s), although I interpret these points to be "don't throw in something halfassed just because I want to see it happen" and "don't destroy the freeform build system that currently defines BNW". I assure you that I never add things to this mod without giving them an approrpiate (and often quite extensive) amount of consideration and that this notion will be kept very firmly in mind throughout.

Thanks for the replies and consideration, @BTB and @thzfunnymzn. I think your interpretation of my word vomit is half-correct. I wouldn't assume that you would put something in that is half-assed. It was clear that these class buffs are a brainstorm, which is why I decided to offer my two cents (before it's "too late" as it were).

I think another way to interpret my ramblings is "don't destroy the freeform build system that currently defines BNW", as you said, and "don't make BNW not-FF6". In my opinion, BNW is the fixed version of FF6. It keeps the flavor and basic mechanics of the game (espers teach magic and give stat bonuses, different characters have unique abilities and equip options), and simply makes them sane and interesting. I think my fear is that if this class thing becomes too significant an aspect of the gameplay (both in terms of impact on battles and on the mental overhead of team-building), that it will take away from BNW being "FF6.1"- rather, it'll become a game that is different from FF6. Which is all fine and a matter of opinion, but it would lose a little appeal with me, personally.

To be facetious and hyperbolic: "Hey, everyone liked the materia system. Let's add that, too!"

Again, if we're talking minor buffs, and only a handful of options to think about, I think I'd be happy with it.

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I'm definitely in the camp of minor, flavorful buffs. Enough to help further differentiate builds, but not enough to seriously buff characters. The major areas where I introduced major buffs were on builds / classes I felt are mediocre. Which...actually is probably better handled by first fixing said build / class without resorting to class bonuses. That way, the class bonus can be kept as something small & simple yet meaningful & flavorful. So, stam Relm could just get Brush Cover without resorting to class bonuses, with her class bonuses focused more towards some minor extra stuff.

And I am most definitely in the camp of not destroying the existing free form system. You'll also notice that, for character like Terra & Celes, who have a huge amount of possible builds, I try to keep the class bonuses fairly generic. Stuff that would contribute to all builds, yet is still unique between different "classes." This plus keeping buffs minor shouldn't interfere with the free form system, but still provide some meaningful stuff via classes.

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Today I'll try to be constructive instead of shitting on things.

Here's an idea: What if each class has one positive thing and one negative thing? For example, what if, e.g., a Mag Terra gets a small MP boost, but also takes a hit to Vig or HP? EDIT: Along those lines, you could maybe only do the negative stuff for "straight" builds and give hybrids a break.

Is it possible to modify equip options? What if Mag Terra can't equip heavy armors anymore, or takes an extra hit to speed from them, or something? That's probably adding too much complexity (both in terms of code and in terms of what the player has to deal with).


Edited by pogeymanz
Finish thought.

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Thing with hybrids is that, IIRC, there's not going to be a way to code the game to understand a hybrid build. Golem + Stray on Sabin? The game will only understand "More Golem levels, so it's a Golem build." So, in this case, we have to select bonuses for the Golem build that not only work for the pure Golem build, but also for a Golem + Stray hybrid.

One positive, one negative, while it sounds like an interesting way to prevent power creep, I'm worried will violate the "don't ruin the free form nature of builds." If a Golem Sabin gets on positive and one negative, that one negative may be fine for a pure Golem Sabin, but it will adversely affect the hybrid build. For your example, you'd be locking Maduin Terra into a "frail mage" set-up, even though Maduin + Phoenix is a real possibility for a more bulky mage set-up.

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18 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Thing with hybrids is that, IIRC, there's not going to be a way to code the game to understand a hybrid build. Golem + Stray on Sabin? The game will only understand "More Golem levels, so it's a Golem build." So, in this case, we have to select bonuses for the Golem build that not only work for the pure Golem build, but also for a Golem + Stray hybrid.

One positive, one negative, while it sounds like an interesting way to prevent power creep, I'm worried will violate the "don't ruin the free form nature of builds." If a Golem Sabin gets on positive and one negative, that one negative may be fine for a pure Golem Sabin, but it will adversely affect the hybrid build. For your example, you'd be locking Maduin Terra into a "frail mage" set-up, even though Maduin + Phoenix is a real possibility for a more bulky mage set-up.

Interesting. I don't know much about ASM, let alone SNES ASM, but how does it work that you can know that you have more Golem levels without knowing how many of each you have? If you knew how many of each you had, you could certainly come up with a look-up table, at worst.

But, yeah, I agree with you about hurting the free form build system. Honestly, I don't see any way to do this without hurting it, which was part of my gripe before... Having pre-defined classes necessarily does that, IMO.

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IIRC, it's possible to program the game to understand how many of each esper has been taken. But to give it advanced logic in understanding build complexity, or even just moderate logic? Ain't happenin'. And a look-up tables of pre-defined builds & hybrids is another form of restricting the free form system. After all, whose to say that those of use deciding on the pre-defined builds to be used know all possibilities? Therefore, I believe we'll just end up with a simple class that simply states which esper you've taken the most of.

As for how that won't interfere with the free form system, again, I think the only way is to make sure bonuses are small and fairly universal in nature. For example, you'll notice for Phoenix Terra, I simply put up the idea of "No delay on Fight command, Reduced or no delay on Magic command." Just about any Terra build that takes primarily Phoenix will benefit from this, yet its still specific enough to be tailored to why someone would take heavy Phoenix. So it works for all possible builds involving Phoenix and, in theory, non-Phoenix builds will still be possible because the Phoenix bonus doesn't work as well for non-Phoenix builds. Course, deciding on two types of bonuses like that for each possibility is a lot of work & theorycrafting.

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Shiva Strago

  • Ignores Elemental Resistance (iow, elemental attacks always do at least neutral damage)
  • Magic/Lore has a 25% chance of an extra Poison proc (X-Magic would have two chances for an extra proc)

Odin Strago

  • Resist: Poison damage. (Not status, but element. Poison chosen to avoid abusive resist stacking with Black Heart)

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24 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:


Shiva Strago

  • Ignores Elemental Resistance (iow, elemental attacks always do at least neutral damage)
  • Magic/Lore has a 25% chance of an extra Poison proc (X-Magic would have two chances for an extra proc)

Odin Strago

  • Resist: Poison damage. (Not status, but element. Poison chosen to avoid abusive resist stacking with Black Heart)

Here's an idea! Not entirely serious, but whenever Odin Strago covers someone, 12.5% chance to proc Holy Wind, providing Strago has it.

This could maybe extend to the shield builds that are looking to emphasize having a shield on, having them block and/or cover someone and provide a heal or something similar. Issue is it might conflict with countering in some cases.

Also, since I don't believe it was put anywhere, what about bumping the chances up and/or adding the Dragon Helm effect for Edgar and Mog Dragoon builds?

Edited by Yuyu

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Spitballs for Setzer:

Seraph: Random low % chance to cast Magic (but not Summon) for free.

Shoat: Random low % chance that any Slots command will also follow up with a random esper summon.

Starlet: Random low % chance that GP Rain will be used for free.

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Just a thought, if we're worried about hybrids and the game knowing which takes priority, my suggestion is to force the class at half+1 max level. So if the max is 25, set the bonus to 13 for a single esper. That's only a little more then the current 10 being kicked around, but that requires you to commit to the idea to get a bonus, or go full freeform and do hybrid build. At best you could do 13/12, which would firmly lock you into a single esper as your 'main'. 

Its a little higher then a lot of builds use in a single esper right now, but that might also help promote hybrid builds if the class bonuses aren't too powerful, since the downside to picking a class is getting less of a splash from other espers. If you have a 10/10/5 build it's still worth considering, otherwise you'd have to do something silly like 13/7/5 or 13/8/4 just to get a class bonus.

Edited by artemi

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Spitball: Rename Phoenix Locke to "Phoenix Mage", instead of Red Mage.

Why? Because Phoenix Locke is known for his X-Magic Fire 3 and Life 2 (and Cure 3). Just like a Phoenix. Otoh, iirc, he's not really known for being a mixed physical fighter/mage. Red Mage Locke is more fitting for Ramuh + Phoenix. And, lo and behold, naming Ramuh "Fighter" and Phoenix "Phoenix Mage" means that the hybrid of Fighter + Mage = Red Mage, which is exactly what that hybrid is.

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