Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
TheRebalancer

1st play, No Random Battles Run

30 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

after action report (well, I am in kefka's tower):

No Random Battle Run, all items, no buyable offensive items, no glitches. Infinite nonrandom battles are only allowed once per, random battles for quest lines are forced exception (gau and gogo).

As a quality of life thing, put in the NRB game genie cheat (AADC-EDA8). Otherwise you may have trouble escaping:
        2 single sealed cave ninjas + 2 floating continent double ninjas
        Gorgimera in cave in the veldt
        coverts in zoneeater
        Rhyos cave on the veldt
        phase in phoenix cave
        land worm
        most of Kefka's tower

Prepare for a huge AAR. You have been warned. First WoB then WoR, then some misc.

Spoiler

Can we remove the pauses in dialogue boxes? That's what an ellipse is for. Spamming the A button even more isn't necessary. It's a quality of life thing; the game would be better without them.

5gp after selling all my consumables, and still thamasa needs like 40k more and I'm short a 10k colloseum "donation" was the auction house cut for ROM space? Spamming it was a pain but cherub downs were good.

Celes does NOT have life at level 18. The printme is outdated! Scratch that. There's a version mismatch between the printme and the ROM. That needs fixed. Grr. I was counting on this thing...

Speaking of the printme, the Mystery Egg isn't on there even with a useless "???" entry. Sigh. Really? Just say that (redacted -BTB)

23000 more gp is needed if players are expected to buy the 3 available espers without random battles. Atma weapon has a problem: the game is lying about the numbers. I spent a half an hour in a loop doing 865 on an ice 2 then attacking twice for 200 while the atma weapon would regen 235 twice and flare himself for 250, according to the damage and healed amount shown. No matter how long I gave him an extra 800ish damage over 3 rounds, he would never initiate his 2nd form. This is probably the most frustrating of all the bugs.

The above is why the printme or scan needs to show HP values. Why aren't players allowed to know the numbers in the game? Why is monster HP sacred? Why not all the numbers: damage, attack values, stats, character hp, etc. Grrrrrr!

Speaking of that, I had to go figure out why I was getting dealt 1800 (instead of 270) damage on atma's second form. Monster attacks have hidden formulas that I shouldn't have to go look up. Either they should all be attack value based (so there's nothing to look up), or the formulas should be stated in the attack message. Yes, I'm serious about pasting: 80/living partymembers * Rand living PC lvl. Because otherwise I have no fucking idea what is going on. I'm not going to debug the damn thing, JUST TELL ME WHAT IS HAPPENING!

Anyway, the leo's sword thing is cool, but isn't his sword over his grave? I love being able to shock the bat lady's but REQUIRING it is gay.

Spoiler

The lack of Monster in a Box before getting Sabin makes me sad. That was the whole reason to get him early. Uh, I guess I won't be using him. Shame. He's a powerhouse. Not tasty fun like cyan or shadow, but still, consistently filling meat and veggies damage.

Okay so WoR character levels come in at the level of the highest party member minus two, except Sabin for some reason who stays at his previous, low level. I tested this by gaining 10 levels on him (equal to my celes) before gaining my 6th party member. No change. This means that if I want high level characters, I should wait until the WoR is basically cleared, just like vanilla.

So who to put on the dream team? In this run, I'll only have levels on the last few gained and then a team with a fair amount of spells. So I should backload my high-ability characters (oh its just sabin, gogo and umaro, never mind) and get first the ones who cast a lot. Since everything's already been poured into celes, we'll try to get her to 30 (ha!) at which cast we would get Terra and start pouring everthing into her. If we don't get there, then there's 3 slots to fill. Those who have 4 espers to buy into are edgar, locke, mog, relm, and strago. Since the game might not be winnable without the massive grinding benefits from esper levels, edgar and mog will be dragoons to avoid unavoidable attacks. If we make gogo a 3rd dragoon, we are all set. Setzer can be a 5th wheel in the meantime.

After getting the falcon, the sudden lack of linear gameplay means that all futher encounters granting xp or sp in the WoR can be delayed until an estimate of how much SP, XP, and EP we're talking about. My initial guess is that there will be enough to either get celes to level 24 for ice 3 or get the party to level 22 and maybe esper level 15. Unfortunately I have to decide before that point due to the monster in a box in daryl's tomb if before grabbing everyone else pays off (it doesn't).

Why is Phoenix paired with TERRA and locke rather than CELES and locke? Crusader going to celes (the ice woman) vs Terra (the fire woman) is off. Crusader and Ragnarok need swapped. Everything else looks pretty good. I can see the design decisions in the esper divisions.

At this point I accidentally deleted my rom and save states. So instead of the "feed all XP to celes" route, I'm going to always feed xp to whoever has the lowest level of those who have to be around/count. I cheated/turbo'd through to include some fixes or additions to the mod (run) that I believe are a mistake: the chest in the beginner classroom being the first (so edgar comes in at 6 not 5). He should already be up a level, and sabin should be up 2. Also cyan comes in at total character average instead of sabin's (current party's) average instead of up one. Lastly 45xp from a south figaro cave monster would have helped for celes, who also needs 2 more levels, well 3 considering she's suppose to be up a level. The reason for this is that it allows you to do the scenarios in any order rather than banon, locke, sabin. I did it exactly wrong, and there should be no 'wrong' choice. On second thought, Terra re-averages when you get her back, so she is only useful for getting locke, edgar, and sabin at a higher level. 
Also the lack of xp on the bright light trap fight in the caves of narshe would mean a level for edgar.

Sigh I have no idea what a slim jim does. I can't use it, the description means nothing and it's not in the printme... Same with the stat hat stealable from the onion kids from fighting the mechs in vector. Anyways its time get Terra who came back NOT at party average. Sigh. Fine I'll grind her to to leap gau out of the team because of the party average thing. And he won't go. WTF??? Fine I'll grind them ALL up to level 14 except cyan who's level 11. Of course, when celes comes back she's not at the party level either. Time to go grind 5 levels.

I know that the Nifufu guy is supposed to give celes a tons of levels, but she ended WoB at level 16. Then she starts at WoR at level 18, which is above the party average. I'm confused. So is it pointless to grind XP in WoB? I know the ELs don't come in for free. This seems to suggest that ELs are all that matter, which seems ham-handed considering that's the major mechanic that BNW added. Okay after getting sabin at 18, I think I know what's going on with the levels: all previous party members get boosted to 18? That still doesn't add up with the "level 1 Gogo" thing mentioned at the beginning.

I went through all 100k WoB money before I went the falcon, and still needed more. Ug. Zozo's rusted door said "Door it open!" ? The dragons' useing the FF4 elemental fiends' theme was ... jarring. Don't get me wrong. I love it in FF4. FF4 has a high-medival, standard fantasy vibe. It's a tight, well-orchestrated blend of thick ass longswords swinging at everything from zombies to robots. It's surprising that square managed to not only pull it off, but do so in a way that makes you not even stop and think twice about if something that broad could work. ... But that isn't FF6. FF6 is grittier and darker. I just don't feel the crossmojination.

Um Leo's Crest isn't in the printment either and I don't know what it does... The top of the fanatics tower chest closes itself after opening it and going into the menu. I think I remember that in vanilla. It is a bug that should be fixed, moreso than the thamasa sprite facing.

Okay so I've finally done everything except gather party members. I have a rough idea of how much XP, EP and SP are upcoming. Since I haven't calculated those numbers for areas "locked" behind already having to have a character join or fight a battle that gives some of those points, its actually pretty small: 2916k if split among four party members. While this would give a free level up to my team (or 3 if it was based on current/highest party member rather than the party average), the ELs all going to one place would probably be a bad idea and certainly the lost spell points. It makes me wonder if SP could be make to be x4 and then just divided. It would make the choice very clear for what I'm trying to do. I will say that the "bank" of SP is a very welcome addition, so you can store up SP and use it on useful spells instead of grinding out those 1% spell rates (drain, cough cough) to fulfill your 100% urges.

Since I'm horribly under leveled and made of paper due to how EP work, my only real chance of winning the final gauntlet is to go dragoon. This means edgar, mog, and gogo will be the A-team, while 4 B team members will get put in either reverse-ranked order, or where they are most useful. Runic I think will come in handy. Buffing the A team and avoiding dispels will be a higher priority than debuffs (sorry sabin), because the enemies will change more than the party. Float can be pre-cast by Sabin. Haste is already covered by Edgar and Mog, but HasteX would require Gau/Shadow. Safe is covered by Edgar (or strago), as is SlowX. Although Bserk would be hillarious, its just too risky to not time jumps or otherwise manipulate AI (which I've had to do far more than I would have liked considering how about half of boss actions/reactions 1 shot). This is why both umara, gau and Mog's dance are out. Reraise is a must from Setzer/Celes and Setzer does have RegenX. Also Setzer can set sap all at once and single target bio, but Edgar multi-poison and mog can single target Bio. Terra/Cyan/celes/setzer have regen. There's no reason to locke/cyan to equip kirin for regen. Due to morph+ultima, Terra would be used if there was a magic DPS-crunch needed. Shell from Terra/Strago would be good too. Dispel would be good in case enemies are safe/shell, but ONLY celes/shadow can do that.

Only Strago or Terra with carbunkle can reflect and only Strago or Shadow/Gau with Fenrir can image, if I can find a nonrandom battle that teaches refract. Never mind. Even if I could, I'd never know it because the printme doesn't list enemy abilities and this is a custom blue mage spell so I can't look it up in vanilla. Bah. Strago got hosed. Even the wonderful "dischord" spell is gone. Gau got hosed too (not that I ever used him): what do you mean my gau isn't immune to Blind, Zombie, Poison, Magitek, Invisible, Imp, Petrify, Death, Doom, Critical, Image, Silence, Berserk, Confuse, Sap, Sleep, Slow, and Stop anymore? Oh and I forgot ABSORBING Fire, Ice, Lightning, Wind, Earth, Water, Poison, Holy. Gau and Strago used to be good.

I don't expect enemy imp/berserk/doom/x-zone/sleep/stop/break/mute/full mp drain via rasp or osmose to work, although edgar does have blind and confus, the latter of which probably won't work due ot immunities/heavy flag. I'm expecting to not be massively debuffed by enemies (a la Oscar bad breath), nor constantly insta-killed (like doomgaze), either. Unfortunately I can't just load up the last area and see how hard it is, atleast not without breaking my play order for the 10SP the magimaster gives and then doing a LOT of cheat grinding just to load back and do it all regularly. Meh. So I'll have to make my best guess as to who will be useful.

A team: Edgar, Mog, ~Gogo,      (all dragoons with magic, although edgar has tools)
          B Team: Celes, Terra, Setzer or, um, Cyan over Shadow for HP?
                 C Team (because we don't grind): Strago, Sabin, Locke, Relm, Land/ability-based Gogo
                           D Team (because we like having control): Gau, Dance-based mog, Umaro

I originally didn't like Edgar + Setzer escorting Celes in a minimal character run, but as you can see above, BNW might have been built with that in mind. It certainly wasn't built for NRB runs, and it was actively built against LLRs. It does "okay" at encouraging normal, nongrinding play which is certainly a step up from vanilla. If it just encorporated the NRB stuff I meantion above, it was be perfect from a leveling perspective. Except...

It turns out there's no point in lightly grinding Gogo. He and Umaro are half the batttlers they used to be thanks to the EL system. He essentially has an effective Level 49 max compared to everyone else's effective Level 98. For this run that means he's at level 15ish instead of level 27ish, except its more like x to y because the first dozen or two levels matter very little compared to the static EL benefits. He also can't dual-wield Jump which I thought was the case in vanilla. This actually makes him a worse DPS "jump"er than "fight"er. Only after this is fixed AND the man-eater bug from FF5 is replicated, then gogo can be a real dragoon. Unless for some reason you need two of an ability (morph? nope, nevermind he can't morph), he's strictly inferior in a game where you can just chose another character instead. Everyone has fight/magic/item, steal only grants one no matter how much you steal, bushido with rods and knives is kinda gimped, tools is just status setting, blitz without HP is bad, runic also needs HP, lore and rage are gimped, slot isn't special, dance is uncontrollable and does sketch even work on bosses? Obviously control doesn't.

So is the umaro fight supposed to take an hour? I know its not supposed to be a difficulty mod but bosses hitting for x4 your HP (with max equipment and +25%hp items), to 3 partymembers every turn (assuming he is slowed and you are hasted) is kinda rough. Basically the winning strategy becomes "don't play." Seriously. Just defend. Don't use your turn. Then assign 3 healers to try to keep your head above water. And count the 1k damage every half of a minute ... if the RNG goes your way. I know I could have just loaded up on ineffecient HP and then respeced but it, it didn't feel straight forward. Only a few people could even get HP and I didn't want to use most of them. "Pissy boss mode" is right. It always bothered me that Umaro holds out on you. When you fight him he's this ridiculous power house. When he fights for you, he's a push-over. No wonder why people are too bitter to put him in the party.

The Katanasoul required 744 hp, so 1+3 ELs were taken to avoid instance non-physical, non-magical party wipe damage every other turn. So is Terrato giving +5 more hp in the next version? Whatever. I've got all the items, all the encounters, and all the sidequests (except actually getting the WoR losers and uncontrollable gau). I love the moogle charm change btw. Is there a version for gau?

 

The dragons party wipe once a round with unblockable, unreflectable, unrunicable magic damage in excess of my HP. I'll have to spend more ELs to tank them so I figure I'll do the magimaster and raid Kefka's tower first. The magimaster probably requires spending SP from my huge bank of ... 30 SP? WHY IS THERE A CAP OF 30 SP? WHY IS EXTRA SP WASTED? WHY IS IT 30 INSTEAD OF 39 (highest spell requirement + highest battle amounts before any would be wasted)? WHY DID THE GAME NOT WARN ME ABOUT THIS? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY?

Does anyone have a game genie code so the SP isn't deducted while I spend SP? I don't want to grind up the exact number... Well ... AFTER spending SP the magimaster is fun. Not as fun as the 3 dream stooges though. Why does kefka's tower tell me "Lasciate ogne speranza voi ch'intrate..." ?

Anyway, I chunked through atma (it took an hour...) so I can do the same with the statues, etc. I even feel mildly competent about AI abusing the final gauntlet. But I suspect it would be agonizing and not much fun. I also never saw any hints about how to prestige class various characters. I suppose I could stop and grind the dino's as per vanilla, but I'll see if anyone can get me that above game genie code first.

I'm willing to share the save if someone want to try to grind out all 8 dragons, the gaurdian, and the statutes and put it on youtube. But I'm guessing it will be even more boring to watch (unedited) than play.

Spoiler

Here's a list of what the joining levels should have been:
Locke  : +2
Edgar  : +2
Sabin  : +2
Cyan   : +2
Gau    : +2
Celes  : +0
Strago : +2
Relm   : +0
Shadow : +0
Mog    : +5
Gogo   : +2
Umaro  : +0

Yes, I'd like about 20 free levels, please.

List of Fixes and Improvements not yet in BNW
http://www.romhacking.net/?page=hacks&game=302&perpage=100&order=Category
minimap
optional mimic
automatic healing
save anywhere (ahem, save states)
"FF6: Is the Best Game Ever" 's runic fix

Edit: removed the sentence on float.

Edit 2: changed 1 letter and attacked a parenthetic that was talking about my NRB run, in case it wasn't understood already in the context.

Edited by TheRebalancer
Removed retarded tags
-4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So... it sounds like you tried a challenge run meant for vanilla and it didn't really go as expected. That's kind of what I'm getting from this whole post.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Kudos on getting so far when you made your first run a challenge run, but I think you've run into why you shouldn't have done that. Challenge runs like LLGs are best-suited to people who know the game inside and out, and the things you learned from vanilla don't necessarily carry over. You have to start that learning process again, and that's part of what appeals to people who like figuring out how to make those runs - it gives them something fresh to work on. The game's been beaten with levels so low Gogo joined with 0 HP, leading to hijinks, so it's not impossible. It just takes a ridiculous level of dedication and familiarity.

One thing I think you should keep in mind is that some of the things you call wrong or in need of fixing are intentional. You should adjust your expectations to include the possibility that some of the assumptions that vanilla has trained you to have may not apply anymore, because they were holding the game back. For instance, the levels at which characters join and rejoin has been deliberately altered from vanilla, and most people agree it's an improvement.

Edited by Bauglir
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

> 23000 more gp is needed if players are expected to buy the 3 available espers without random battles. 

...Why would the game expect you to play it without random battles? 

7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I noticed you kept making comments about why BNW isn't this or that after this comment of yours:

"I cheated/turbo'd through to include some fixes on additions to the mod that I believe are a mistake"

You do realize that anything you typed after saying that in terms of criticism against BNW is null, because you've modified the game to no longer be BNW? 

I'm sorry, but I agree with BTB: I think you attempted something from Vanilla in terms of a challenge run and applied it to BNW, and my addition to that is you did it without having even attempted to try the game normally first.

What the hell did you expect? This mod is so significantly different from Vanilla, and your comments about your playthrough seemingly reflect that you were expecting Vanilla despite somehow knowing that the game was different. You went in with the readme and printme and assumed it'd have everything you need, and you'd be right if you didn't slap on a silly restriction out of the gate.

I honestly can't take any of your criticism seriously against the game because of your challenge and personal modifications, because it doesn't reflect against normal play of the mod, and demanding changes to it in reflection of the experience you've had because of it just makes you seem... well, stupid. You personally seem really dumb for having done that. 

Your depressive statements about not knowing what the Stat Hat, Leo's Crest, or Slim Jim does? Did you even think to equip the Stat Hat? Leo's Crest? Did you see what either did? Did you attempt to take them into battle? You would have clearly seen what Leo's Crest did if you went into battle with it on Celes, or at least the biggest part of what it is. The Stat Hat, all you needed to do is unequip your helm and check the stats you got on it. Slim Jim? Did you attempt to use it in battle? Of course it doesn't look anything different from a dried meat being used in a menu. Did anything click there that made you think: "Hmm, maybe that has in-battle effects?" 

At this point I'm going to stop. You did something brave, but incredibly stupid, and went through this entire effort to post this demanding that there be changes because you dove into shallow water head first and suffered the consequences. Perhaps try the mod normally without restrictions first, then I may take anything you said here as serious feedback.

Edited by Yuyu
SO MANY TYPOS
9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Instead of replying to your entire post, which a lot of can be attributed to you don't pay attention (Celes and Shadow both get Float, and Shadow is forced upon you for Atma), or just down right looney, BNW is beatable via LLG or whatever challenge really. Feel free to look up my playthrough on Youtube (I haven't had time to finish the last statue and then the finale with Kefka, but LLG everything else is viewable). Here's some examples.

 

Atmaweapon

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/120166109


Magimaster

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/153069024

 

Hidon

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/146702924

 

 

 

 

Edited by Kain Stryder
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I needed a good laugh this morning, thanks.

Real talk: play the game without all that nonsense and then your post will be worth reading. BNW isn't vanilla dude, you can't expect to apply a bunch of vanilla fixes to it. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This game wasn't explicitly designed for an LLG, but it wasn't designed against it either.  Many of these changes were made for good reasons, and reverting them to benefit LLG/NRB players does not make sense because LLG/NRB players probably constitute 1% of the mod's following, if that.  Furthermore, I personally find these sorts of challenge runs more interesting when the developers *didn't* have a way to complete them in mind.  Instead of just putting together the developers' clues on what to do like in most other games, you can make your own solution.  Since both NRB and LLG are doable in BNW, I'd find those challenges to be less fun with twenty extra levels.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/1/2017 at 10:13 PM, BTB said:

So... it sounds like you tried a challenge run meant for vanilla and it didn't really go as expected. That's kind of what I'm getting from this whole post.

No, it did go as expected (except the cherub downs, ELs for HP and 30SP cap). But I'll be responding directly to comments, since that's the whole expectation of the above.

I apologize about the post spam, but the forum code doesn't allow me to highlight and copy paste everything into one big post. The quote blocks always fight me...

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/1/2017 at 10:20 PM, Bauglir said:

Kudos on getting so far when you made your first run a challenge run ... It just takes a ridiculous level of dedication and familiarity.

For instance, the levels at which characters join and rejoin has been deliberately altered from vanilla, and most people agree it's an improvement.

Thanks but yeah I don't want to put in 50 hours into a 25 hour game. As I mentioned emulators themselves have ways to help speed that process up. As for level integers of starting characters, I am aware that they have been adjusted purposely. The question is if it is a good thing. My opinion is that not having those free levels is bad. I gave a pretty detailed situation on one example where that's the case. I am open to debate on the topic, though.

 

 

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/1/2017 at 10:21 PM, artemi said:

> 23000 more gp is needed if players are expected to buy the 3 available espers without random battles. 

...Why would the game expect you to play it without random battles? 

Because a lack of grinding is the "control" or "baseline" for balancing RPGs. It's kind of an old standard for game development.

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/1/2017 at 10:55 PM, Yuyu said:

I noticed you kept making comments about why BNW isn't this or that after this comment of yours:

"I cheated/turbo'd through to include some fixes on additions to the mod that I believe are a mistake"

You do realize that anything you typed after saying that in terms of criticism against BNW is null, because you've modified the game to no longer be BNW? 

So if any player accidentally hits the turbo button once, they are no longer playing BNW?

If a player introduces sprint shoes cheat to avoid having to toggle the "hold b button causes sprint" option, they are no longer playing BNW?

What matters is what the purpose of the alteration was. Mine was purely to save time. Because you so frivolously dismissed my post, I'll dismiss the rest of yours until you go to this sticking point (which you used to dismiss dozens hour of first hand, objective play testing feedback from a heavily knowledgeable RPG gamer)

-2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 10/2/2017 at 8:01 AM, Kain Stryder said:

Instead of replying to your entire post, which a lot of can be attributed to you don't pay attention (Celes and Shadow both get Float, and Shadow is forced upon you for Atma), or just down right looney

I missed Phantom in my esper/spell checking. Kudos to you finding that mistake. That makes me feel better out Gau/Sabin with Stray. What else is looney, though? The RNB part? I know I'm crazy to have tried that part. :)

Your atma fight looked like mine (you've got less HP, but far more options due to random battles with gau & strago). I enjoyed watching it. I'm not a guide-dang-it kind of guy so I didn't, like, spend hours researching or anything. I just played. It's not like anyone else has done a NRB run of this before, though. That's why I saved my valuable feedback.

Edited by TheRebalancer
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2017 at 8:35 PM, Lockirby2 said:

This game wasn't explicitly designed for an LLG, but it wasn't designed against it either.  Many of these changes were made for good reasons, and reverting them to benefit LLG/NRB players does not make sense because LLG/NRB players probably constitute 1% of the mod's following, if that.  Furthermore, I personally find these sorts of challenge runs more interesting when the developers *didn't* have a way to complete them in mind.  Instead of just putting together the developers' clues on what to do like in most other games, you can make your own solution.  Since both NRB and LLG are doable in BNW, I'd find those challenges to be less fun with twenty extra levels.

If you say so. My only clue was the Narshe beginner's room on LLGs. It's good to hear vague generalities about reasons for the levels, for instance, but I'll only settle for some hard specifics. I provided specifics. I presume you have some too. What are they?

 

I agree with you about the "make you own solution." That's why I didn't dig up BNW world guides. All I had was the game, which is why I talk about the printme so much.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last thing: Again, does anyone have a game genie code to force the SP "cap" (shake's fist) to 30? It would save me turning off XP and grinding to the value I have recorded.

Oh. Speaking of that. I kept very detailed records about every non-random battle (excluding secondary iterations of infinite nonrandom ones). In case this is useful to anyone else, I'll just dump the plain text from my spreadsheet:

Spoiler
                       
Place Directions Total Enemy Xp Gp Sp EP Winnable Items Stealable Items    
Narshe Immediate Right 2 Lobo 66 132 0          
  Back and Up 2 Soldiers 100 100 0          
  Up more 2 Lobo 66 132 0          
  Automatic 2 Soldiers 100 100 0          
  Up more 4 2 Lobo & 2 Soldiers 166 232 0          
  Next screen, up 4 2 soldiers & 2 Mammoths 300 232 0          
  Next screen, up 1 Whelk 0 0 0          
                       
Narshe Moogle Battles 2 Lobo & mamoth 133 132 0          
    2 Lobo & mamoth 133 132 0          
    2 Lobo & mamoth 133 132 0          
    2 Lobo & mamoth 133 132 0          
    2 Lobo & mamoth 133 132 0          
    2 Lobo & mamoth 133 132 0          
    3 Marshal & 2 lobo 66 132 0          
                       
Chests like the one in the beginner room that don't give XP aren't noted here          
  All xp to terra then locke then celes (who is only gone for the sealed gate cave run and banquet fights)    
                       
Figaro After cutscene 2 Tek Armor 198 398 0          
                       
Mt Kolts Vargas             x-potion      
                       
Lete River After giving it all to sabin (and banon) 3 Exocite & 2 nautiloid 62 548 0     albas    
  straight path 3 Exocite & 2 nautiloid 62 548 0     125 alba 2 exo    
  keep going 3 Albatross & 2 exocite 62 633 0     124 exo & 2naut  
  keep going 3 Exocite & 2 nautiloid 62 548 0     124 exo & 2naut  
  keep going 3 Exocite & 2 nautiloid 62 548 0          
  straight path (x1) 2 albatross 75 666 0          
  keep going (x1) 2 albatross 75 666 0     149 all 3    
  keep going 3 Exocite & 2 nautiloid 62 548 0     125 alba 2 exo    
  left path 3 Albatross & 2 exocite 62 633 0          
  keep going 3 Albatross, exocite, nautoloid 74 682 0     124 exo & 2naut  
Scenario restart (3 member party) 3 Albatross & 2 exocite 83 633 0          
  keep going 3 Albatross & 2 exocite 83 633 0       I got a 3rd fight here!
Sabin's Cyan outside Doma 2 Soldiers 50 100 0          
    2 Soldiers 50 100 0          
    2 Soldiers 50 100 0   Tonic      
    2 Soldiers 50 100 0   Tonic      
  other side's 4 2 Soldiers 50 100 0   Tonic      
    2 Soldiers 50 100 0   Tonic      
    2 Soldiers 50 100 0          
    2 Soldiers 50 100 0          
  sabin kick checst 3 dobermans 98 398 0          
  left soldier 3 tek armor & 2 soldier 149 299 0          
  treasure chest past kefka 13 teslstar (calls 4 soldiers, x3) 349 450 0          
  blocking soldier 4 2 templar & 2 soldiers 182 432 0          
  cyan's fight 4 Soldiers 50 200 0          
  next for cyan 4 Soldiers 50 200 0   Tonic      
    3 Templar & 2 Soldiers 58 266 0          
  in magitek armor 1 tek armor 49 199 0          
  go down 1 tek armor 49 199 0          
  go left 2 tek armor 99 398 0          
  next tek armor 3 tek armor & 2 soldiers 74 299 0          
  almost out 2 tek armor 99 398 0          
Phantom train ghost 2 ghost 66 98 0   holy water      
  ghost 2 ghost 66 98 0          
  next car 3 ghost 99 147 0          
  next car 3 ghost 99 147 0          
    2 ghost 66 98 0          
    3 ghost 99 147 0          
    2 ghost 66 98 0          
    3 ghost 99 147 0          
  doorway ghost 2 ghost 66 98 0          
  next car 3 ghost 99 147 0          
    3 ghost 99 147 0          
  next car 3 ghost 99 147 0          
    2 ghost 66 98 0          
  next car 3 ghost 99 147 0          
    3 ghost 99 147 0          
  chest 1 phantom 75 99 0   sprint shoes      
barren falls   2 Piranha 0 0 0          
    3 Piranha 0 0 0          
    3 Piranha 0 0 0          
    1 rizopas 0 0 0          
Lete River   4 anemone 664 664 0       half these few
  left path 3 anguiform, prokaryote, anemone 514 615 0          
  keep going 2 aguiform 398 600 0          
  left path 3 anguiform, prokaryote, anemone 514 615 0          
    2 aguiform 398 600 0          
  right 3 anguiform, prokaryote, anemone 257 615 0     3k gp in cave    
  right 2 aguiform 199 600 0     3.5k gp in cave    
South Figaro Already on screen 1 Mega Armor 399 599 0          
    1 Mega Armor 399 599 0          
  item shop   merchant 0 0 0     mithril dirk    
  top area   Trooper 0 0 0     dried meat    
      merchant 0 0 0     mithril dirk    
    1 Mega Armor 399 599 0          
      Trooper 0 0 0     dried meat    
      merchant 0 0 0     mithril dirk    
Narshe snowfields 4 troopers 400 600 0   Tonic   dried meats or tonics
    4 troopers 400 600 0          
    3 2 troopers & 1 rottweiler 266 599 0          
    4 troopers 400 600 0          
    3 2 troopers & 1 rottweiler 266 599 0          
    4 troopers 400 600 0   Tonic      
    4 troopers 400 600 0   Tonic      
    4 troopers 400 600 0   Tonic      
    3 2 troopers & 1 rottweiler 266 599 0          
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0   Tonic      
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    4 troopers 400 600 0          
    4 troopers 400 600 0          
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    3 snow armor & 2 trooper 399 699 0   Tonic      
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    2 Fidor & trooper 199 450 0          
    1 hell rider 499 500 0     holy water    
    1 kefka 0 0 0     tiara    
zozo boss summons killable xp givers 3 dadulma + 2   74 978 0   dried meat x-potion, slim jim  
Opera House 5 2 sewer rats & 3 vermin 199 1116 3 72        
    3 1vermin & 2 sewer rats 116 633 3 42        
    6 2 sewer rats & 3 vermin +1 sewer rat 199 1116 3 72        
    3 1vermin & 2 sewer rats 116 633 3 42        
    6 2 sewer rats & 3 vermin +1 sewer rat 199 1116 3 72        
Vector Old lady 2 Gaurd 100 100 0     rename card x2    
  soldier 3 defender & 2 commando 499 697 2 124        
  next soldier 3 commando & 2 foxhound 548 997 2 136        
  lastt soldier 3 commando & 2 foxhound 548 997 2 136        
  first magitek 2 proto man 1000 500 2 250        
  second magitek 2 proto man 1000 500 2 250        
  upper magitek 1 2 proto man 1000 500 2 250        
  upper magitek 2 2 proto man 1000 500 2 250        
  Turn back after infiltration 3 commando & 2 foxhound 548 997 2 136        
  after entering faculty 3 defender & 2 commando 499 697 2 124 tonic      
Magitek factory after ifrit & shiva 1 Number 024 0 0 10 0   xpotion    
  Cart 1 2 Mag Roader & Mag Roadie 194 499 3 72        
  Cart 2 4 mag roadie 332 996 3 123        
  Cart 3 2 Mag Roader & Mag Roadie 194 499 3 72        
  Cart 4 4 mag roadie 332 996 3 123        
  Cart 5 4 mag roadie 332 996 3 123        
  finishing cart 1 Number 128 0 0 10 0        
  Cranes     0 0 10 0        
imperial base BEFORE NARSHE green soldier 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic      
  brown soldier 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic      
  green soldier 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic x2      
  brown soldier 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic      
  mech 2 proto man & mega armor 899 336 3 849        
  upstairs brown 1 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic      
  upstairs brown 2 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic      
  green gaurding stairs 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic     everyone is 14 at this point
  upstairs walking green 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic      
  upstairs lowest brown 4 Soldiers 600 225 3 796 Tonic      
Esper Cave pull right lever 1 Ninja 124 500 3 45 shruiken invis/wave scroll  
  Sealed gate 3 Kefka & 2 Phalanx 0 0 0 0   1 tonic, 1 potion  
Vector Palace left outside magitek 1 magitek 99 599 1 12        
  left room 1 commando 37 199 1 4   dried meat    
  on the can 1 commando 37 199 1 4   dried meat    
  top of tower 1 commando 37 199 1 4   dried meat    
  banquet 3 centurion 0 0 0 5   tonic x3    
burning house fire 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  fire 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  fire 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  second room 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  fire 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  fire 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  fire 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  open left door 4 grenade 466 1196 3 174        
  third room 6 grenade 700 1794 3 261        
  fire 6 grenade 700 1794 3 261        
  fire 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  fourth room 6 grenade 700 1794 3 261        
  fire 3 grenade 350 897 1 43        
  boss 1 heartfire + grenades 466 580 10 1196        
To Floating Continent First airship fight 3 Sky armor & 2 spitfire 1248 1248 3 468        
lol three is this many. Fine… 3 Sky armor & 2 spitfire 1248 1248 3 468        
  remember to use life in between fights 3 Sky armor & 2 spitfire 1248 1248 3 468        
    3 Sky armor & 2 spitfire 1248 1248 3 468        
    3 Sky armor & 2 spitfire 1248 1248 3 468        
    3 Sky armor & 2 spitfire 1248 1248 3 468        
  get sneezed on 1 IAF 0 0 10 0        
On Floating Continent straight right box 1 Gigantos 5000 2500 5 3125 hero ring phoenix down & mystery egg
Lete River w/ mog 3 anguiform, prokaryote, anemone 248 598 5 155        
  right path this time 3 anguiform, prokaryote, anemone 514 615 5 320        
  right path this time 2 aguiform 398 600 5 245        
floating continent atma 1 atma weapon 0 0 10 0        
  up 1 Bat Lady 0 0 3 0 tincture      
  right 1 Bat Lady 0 0 3 0 tincture      
  down then back up 1 Bat Lady 0 0 3 0 tincture      
  boss light 1 Nimufu 10000 3072           Except gau (who shouldn't be in the party), everyone is 15-17
Figaro Tentacles 4 Tentacles A, B, C, D 0 0 10 0        
Ancient Castle Cave right chest 1 Master T (pug) 1000 625 5 1000 avenger      
Ancient Castle left chest 1 Katana Soul 1249 780 5 10000 Valiance      
  Dragon 1   0 0 10          
Daryll's Tomb monster in a box before end 2   833 520 5 3333 frostgore      
  Last room 1 Dullahan 0 0 10     potion    
Zozo Mountain press switch 1 dragon 0 0 10          
Veldt Cave monster in a box 1 Bone Lord 833 520 5 3333 stormfang      
  Near Shadow 1+1 Behemoth + Behemoth again 0 0 0   Kagenui     Bet the Avenger
Jidor Lady Painting 3 Dahling 750 279 3 1500   fire rod x3    
  Chair Painting 3 Dahling & 2 Nightsade 600 375 5 2900        
  Suit of armor painting 1 Still Like 125 75 5 5000        
  Floating chest 1 3 Dahling & 2 Nightsade 600 375 5 2900        
  Floating chest 2 3 2 Dahling & Nightsade 675 512 5 2200        
  Floating chest 3 3 2 Dahling & Nightsade 675 512 5 2200        
  Floating chest 4 3 2 Dahling & Nightsade 675 512 5 2200        
  Last Painting 1 Lakshimi 0 0 10          
Phoenix Cave Just before Locke 1 Red Dragon 0 0 10          
Narshe snow fields 1 blue dragon 0 0 10          
  omaro left box 1 tonberry (pug) 500 310 5 500 bone club      
Doma Castle Dreams After doors 3 Larry, Curly, Moe 0 0 10          
  Cyan at throne 3 Wrexsoul et al 0 0 10          
Ebon Rock Hidon 5 Hidon, 4 hideonites 0 0 10          
opera house stage switch 1 dragon 0 0 10   force shiled      
Fanatics' Tower 2nd room 1 white dragon 0 0 10   longinous & crusader    
  top 1 magimaster 0 0 10   gem box      
Kefka's Tower Middle 1 atma 0 0 10          
  left 1 gaurdian 0 0 10          
  right 1 inferno 0 0 10          
    1 poltergeist 0 0 10          
    1 goddess 0 0 10          

The far right side fields are if I redid the area and had different things happen (as is unavoidable in a game that almost forces save states as per the ELs upon death -> game over screen discussion).

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2017 at 9:59 AM, Mishrak said:

I needed a good laugh this morning, thanks.

Real talk: play the game without all that nonsense and then your post will be worth reading. BNW isn't vanilla dude, you can't expect to apply a bunch of vanilla fixes to it. 

Oops didn't mean to leave you out. I'm glad you enjoyed my extreme mod (and tags? I know you liked those tags). For the record, I'm probably not going to play BNW normally, atleast until I AI manipulate all the way to the end. The only "fun" I'm missing is the random battles. The fanatics tower stands out.

Clearly I am aware that BNW!=vanilla, hence why I discuss the differences. But what fixes from vanilla are you saying I've applied, exactly? I haven't hex edited the mod or anything. I just checked my first post; I only use the subjunctive when talking about "fixes" for BNW.

-1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why so many posts instead of editing one larger one? O.o

Anyway, the amount of fixes that were made to it were detailed in the readme.  There are hundreds of changes, if you're looking solely at code; and thousands of changes if you're looking at rewritten ai, effects of items, etc.  If you want to know exactly what went into this, read the readme.

Play the game how you want to.  But why not give it at least one playthrough without any of your edits to it, so that you can see what BTB had in mind when making those changes?  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Quote

Thanks but yeah I don't want to put in 50 hours into a 25 hour game. As I mentioned emulators themselves have ways to help speed that process up. As for level integers of starting characters, I am aware that they have been adjusted purposely. The question is if it is a good thing. My opinion is that not having those free levels is bad. I gave a pretty detailed situation on one example where that's the case. I am open to debate on the topic, though.

The xp curve and expected amount of exploration (e.g. getting items) is balanced in such a way where the player doesn't need the extra levels if most random encounters are fought.

Quote

Because a lack of grinding is the "control" or "baseline" for balancing RPGs. It's kind of an old standard for game development.

I wasn't aware that RPGs were balanced around the baseline of ignoring random encounters completely (e.g. the main source of power/durability for the characters through the xp they give). In addition, I was always under the impression that shops in RPGs tend to be balanced assuming that... you fight most of the randoms on the way.

Essentially: Fighting some random encounters != grinding. Grinding is when you are ONLY fighting random encounters and doing the same movements/actions to cause more random encounters.

Also, if you think that RPGs, especially older ones, are designed around the assumption of the player not needing to grind... You are very mistaken

Quote

So if any player accidentally hits the turbo button once, they are no longer playing BNW?

“Hi I'm TheRebalancer, and I'm going to introduce a strawman”

Quote

If a player introduces sprint shoes cheat to avoid having to toggle the "hold b button causes sprint" option, they are no longer playing BNW?

What matters is what the purpose of the alteration was. Mine was purely to save time. Because you so frivolously dismissed my post, I'll dismiss the rest of yours until you go to this sticking point (which you used to dismiss dozens hour of first hand, objective play testing feedback from a heavily knowledgeable RPG gamer)

Okay... Why introduce a cheat to do something that is literally in the config menu at the very start of the game? It takes less time to go to config menu and change an option than it does to put in a game genie code. This is what people mean when they are dismissive of your opinions due to you editing the game.

Quote

If you say so. My only clue was the Narshe beginner's room on LLGs. It's good to hear vague generalities about reasons for the levels, for instance, but I'll only settle for some hard specifics. I provided specifics. I presume you have some too. What are they?

First, the existence of an option to disable XP pretty much makes it so that players can make their run as challenging as you want. It definitely wasn't specifically designed to make challenges impossible.

Second, you provided specifics but you didn't provide a good reason for them. What's the good reason for normal play (which is what BNW is designed for) to have most characters join two levels above the party and Mog to join FIVE levels above the party? Do also keep in mind that the overall level curve of BNW tends lower than vanilla FF6.

Look at me, I responded to a bunch of posts in one post instead of spamming.

Edited by Nowea
4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, the fact that you've been using cheats/changing things in the game for your challenge almost specifically because you haven't learned the game (BNW, not vanilla) and are hitting points with "unexpected" changes kind of breaks the spirit of the challenge. I can see adding purely QoL changes that don't directly affect the challenge, like adding auto-run or faster dialogue skipping would for a speedrun, but if you're going to do a challenge then people tend to expect that the challenge is done within the limitations of the game.

I can't speak for everybody that does challenge runs, but any time I go to start one I make sure I have all of the information needed to actually make it happen - if a game doesn't have the info I need available anywhere, then it's a matter of finding it myself through normal runs before starting the challenge as otherwise I'd likely end up in a point where the run ends early because I missed/overlooked something that would be needed to reasonably proceed. You can start some challenge runs with no knowledge of the game, but if you don't know when important items and such come up or even little mechanic tricks then you're going to hit roadblocks much more frequently that cause either grinding (not allowed in this challenge) or a new run to correct. If doing a challenge run of a mod then you can basically throw any vanilla knowledge out the window because there's no guarantee it will still be present.

In your case you're basically running the challenge as if you were playing vanilla (or at most a stat-hack that keeps the rest of the game the same), and every time something comes up that breaks your expectations/knowledge you either edit something in or completely break the challenge by going to fight things to "correct" the issue. The goal of your challenge is to not fight any random battles, and in such a challenge you need to know specifically when to get things as you have no options for grinding to fix mistakes, meaning you need more knowledge about BNW than you currently have to legitimately finish the challenge, especially seeing how often you run into something unexpected.

 

Also...

On 10/1/2017 at 9:36 PM, TheRebalancer said:

Monster attacks have hidden formulas that I shouldn't have to go look up. Either they should all be attack value based (so there's nothing to look up), or the formulas should be stated in the attack message. Yes, I'm serious about pasting: 80/living partymembers * Rand living PC lvl. Because otherwise I have no fucking idea what is going on.

...wat. Have you never played an RPG before? Even games with stupid amounts of in-game information tend to not tell you all of the formulas involved in-game as it's basically useless information to the average player. I can't count the number of times I needed to go through game code to figure out how something works in other games because the information wasn't available in-game or online. Not only this, but older games have much tighter space limitations which would be wasted for something like this, and it really doesn't help the average player who honestly doesn't care about formulas. That kind of information is only really important for challenges, and few challenges even need the specific formulas. You're basically complaining because they didn't design the game around your challenge.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, TheRebalancer said:

Thanks but yeah I don't want to put in 50 hours into a 25 hour game. As I mentioned emulators themselves have ways to help speed that process up. As for level integers of starting characters, I am aware that they have been adjusted purposely. The question is if it is a good thing. My opinion is that not having those free levels is bad. I gave a pretty detailed situation on one example where that's the case. I am open to debate on the topic, though.

Then why are you doing a challenge run? Your behavior doesn't match up with your stated goals. "I don't want to waste time, so I'm going to try and game the AI to proceed"; "I'm going to play the game as it's designed, so I'm going to apply hex edits, which are literally and exactly what cheat codes do"; "I don't want to have to look up detailed data on what attacks do, so I'm going to put myself in a position where I need to do exactly that in order to plan out my battles adequately". What's your actual desired outcome, here? And how are your actual actions contributing to it or hindering it?

In a well-balanced JRPG, a no-random-battles run is not a baseline for the game's difficulty. Period. It's possible in vanilla by exploiting loopholes and bugs that BNW has rightly closed. This is not the same thing as a no-grinding run. If you simply fight every random encounter you run into, you will likely wind up slightly overleveled. The game's random encounter rate is not absurd, and more to the point the AI for those battles has been so reworked that it's a significant part of the mod's value. Skipping them when you're trying to evaluate the game is like loading up a save before the final battle with Kefka, and complaining about the consequences it has on your playthrough is like proceeding to complain that none of the characters had any development or even an introduction (because you skipped all of it).

When you try to dig a well using a taxidermied squirrel as your only tool, you will inevitably have problems. True, it may be inconvenient that the dirt is so heavy. It may be frustrating that the squirrel's stuffing renders it flexible and a poor source of leverage. But none of those things are truly to blame for your predicament - the choices that brought you to this point were not sensible ones, and nobody is going to come help save you from their inevitable, obvious consequences.

Edited by Bauglir
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 10/6/2017 at 0:57 PM, Emmy said:

Why so many posts instead of editing one larger one? O.o

Anyway, the amount of fixes that were made to it were detailed in the readme.  There are hundreds of changes, if you're looking solely at code; and thousands of changes if you're looking at rewritten ai, effects of items, etc.  If you want to know exactly what went into this, read the readme.

Play the game how you want to.  But why not give it at least one playthrough without any of your edits to it, so that you can see what BTB had in mind when making those changes?  

Because "  apologize about the post spam, but the forum code doesn't allow me to highlight and copy paste everything into one big post. The quote blocks always fight me.." I can just use the /quote text I guess. I'll try it below and see how it goes. I did read the readme. It was amusing. What makes you think I edited BNW? Again, I have not modded the mod; my emulator file will exactly match yours (after I delete the saves).

Quote

In addition, I was always under the impression that shops in RPGs tend to be balanced assuming that... you fight most of the randoms on the way.

It's not. I just thought it was well balanced that it's so close. No one else would be able to provide that feedback, so I thought I would.

Concerning your strawman, you've suspiciously dropped the full quote. Not only was I replying to someone who had a problem with speeding up the game with game genie codes, but I was actively saying that he can't possibly believe that. So really I was actively avoiding strawmanning him ... in two separate ways.

Quote

Why introduce a cheat to do something that is literally in the config menu at the very start of the game? It takes less time to go to config menu and change an option than it does to put in a game genie code. This is what people mean when they are dismissive of your opinions due to you editing the game.

The answer to why I chose the sprint shoes cheat is that it saves time. You can preload it across plays and save time. The whole point of using the cheats I mentioned is solely to save time. The amount that it saves (8 hours vs 8 seconds) is neither here nor there. I purposely picked a clear-cut example of why using game genie codes should not automatically entitle dismissive responses to a playthrough that is identical aside from the speed.

Quote

I can't speak for everybody that does challenge runs, but any time I go to start one I make sure I have all of the information needed to actually make it happen - if a game doesn't have the info I need available anywhere, then it's a matter of finding it myself through normal runs before starting the challenge as otherwise I'd likely end up in a point where the run ends early because I missed/overlooked something that would be needed to reasonably proceed.

I did the run 5 times, read everything I could get my hands on about it, but I can't simply monkeying someone else's work because no one else has done this kind of run for BNW to my knowledge. BNW is new and small.

Quote

wat.

I'll settle for just putting it in the readme. After all, BNW has full control of all the algorithms, so there's no reason to not list it there.

Quote

Your behavior doesn't match up with your stated goals. "I don't want to waste time, so I'm going to try and game the AI to proceed"

Almost. It more like "I know I've done everything optimally before this point (see XP list above), so either its a party swap/ strategy change or its AI manip. I only settled on AI manip as a last resort when no other strategies worked. You're welcome to try the run without using any AI manipulation and show me how easy both atma fights are for you. Just don't touch the turbo button or put in a RNB game genie code or everyone will taunt your run as "invalid" because you didn't want to step half your game time holding the run button.

Quote

What's your actual desired outcome, here?

None. I am a blank slat. An unbiased observer, showing what would happen if anyone else tried what I am trying. I had no idea how it would go, specifically. If I had to guess when I started, it would be that atma would mulitple times in a row party-wide 1 shot and end the run. It didn't happen after I realized I could AI manipulate him.

I'm showing what anyone would encounter if they simply tried it. That's why my results are so useful (and compelling). There is very little bias in the results besides "let's try to make something agonizing not so agonizing." Apparently that rubbed a lot of purists the wrong way, along with all things "cheaty". I get it. I have friends who consider "hacks" like this "cheating" compared to "how the game was released." BNW is an abomination to them. I tell them to get over "mods", just like I've politely been doing in the above game genie discussion.

Quote

nobody is going to come help save you from their inevitable, obvious consequences.

which is what, exactly? Failure in the run?

 

edit: Okay, when I use "quote=" like normal forums, it just eats the person I'm responding to. I guess I should have made several posts in a row....

Edited by TheRebalancer
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, TheRebalancer said:

edit: Okay, when I use "quote=" like normal forums, it just eats the person I'm responding to. I guess I should have made several posts in a row....

You can just hit the quote button multiple times, it'll insert the full quote each time and there you can delete the text you don't want quoted.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheRebalancer said:

Almost. It more like "I know I've done everything optimally before this point (see XP list above), so either its a party swap/ strategy change or its AI manip. I only settled on AI manip as a last resort when no other strategies worked. You're welcome to try the run without using any AI manipulation and show me how easy both atma fights are for you. Just don't touch the turbo button or put in a RNB game genie code or everyone will taunt your run as "invalid" because you didn't want to step half your game time holding the run button.

None. I am a blank slat. An unbiased observer, showing what would happen if anyone else tried what I am trying. I had no idea how it would go, specifically. If I had to guess when I started, it would be that atma would mulitple times in a row party-wide 1 shot and end the run. It didn't happen after I realized I could AI manipulate him.

I'm showing what anyone would encounter if they simply tried it. That's why my results are so useful (and compelling). There is very little bias in the results besides "let's try to make something agonizing not so agonizing." Apparently that rubbed a lot of purists the wrong way, along with all things "cheaty". I get it. I have friends who consider "hacks" like this "cheating" compared to "how the game was released." BNW is an abomination to them. I tell them to get over "mods", just like I've politely been doing in the above game genie discussion.

Okay, but doing things optimally involves fighting random battles, unless you can explain why the no-random-battles restriction is contributing to some other goal. That's the part you can't possibly be an unbiased observer about, because it's something profoundly weird, which you chose to do, and which is the fundamental root of your problem. It's not purity - we had some guy who edited every character to be Relm for silly reasons, and we loved Final Fantasy 6: Bob New Ross. If you can change the game to make it better, that's great and you should absolutely do it.

The problem is that the changes you made and the criticisms you have are all based around balancing your challenge run. That challenge run isn't something BNW did. It's something you brought to the table. You're absolutely right that BNW is a poor fit for a no-random-battles run. But why shouldn't it be a poor fit? The facts and evidence you've provided make a fantastic case for not doing this kind of run. They say nothing useful about how BNW could be better at what it's trying to be.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

You can just hit the quote button multiple times, it'll insert the full quote each time and there you can delete the text you don't want quoted.

Thanks. I figured it out on the egg thread. The part that missed with my is that mouse wheel clicking didn't actually quote. Only the left click does. Other boards I use have both, but I only use the mouse wheel so I can manually adjust the order more easily. It's a minor adjustment for a newbie like me to make.

 

4 hours ago, Bauglir said:

Okay, but doing things optimally involves fighting random battles, unless you can explain why the no-random-battles restriction is contributing to some other goal. That's the part you can't possibly be an unbiased observer about, because it's something profoundly weird, which you chose to do, and which is the fundamental root of your problem. It's not purity - we had some guy who edited every character to be Relm for silly reasons, and we loved Final Fantasy 6: Bob New Ross. If you can change the game to make it better, that's great and you should absolutely do it.

The problem is that the changes you made and the criticisms you have are all based around balancing your challenge run. That challenge run isn't something BNW did. It's something you brought to the table. You're absolutely right that BNW is a poor fit for a no-random-battles run. But why shouldn't it be a poor fit? The facts and evidence you've provided make a fantastic case for not doing this kind of run. They say nothing useful about how BNW could be better at what it's trying to be.

That's fair. I don't really have a goal with the NRB, other than to see if its doable without too much time invested. Its a video game, so fun is always a consideration. It does allow a two birds with one stone. NRBs are wierd, but they have been done in other games with even more in-your-face / you-must-fight-all-monsters paradigms. Lobos Jr has a great Dark Souls 1 run doing this called "clear Lordaeron" I think.

But wait, what is the "problem" you're referencing? I've asked for nothing aside from seeing if anyone had a game genie code to save me a half hour of grinding to put the run back on track as if I had known about the 30SP cap (which I could not have possibly known about without literally taking notes on someone speedrunning this game). If no one has a game genie code, that's fine.

If by "changes you made," you mean "how I played the run", then well yeah I do give some uniquely valuable feedback. But most of the feedback is not specific to a RNB run like the ellipsis comment. But a themed run isn't me editing the game similiar to FF Bob New Ross.

The fact is, you don't know until the first person tries. If you have to learn from my mistakes and not try a NRB run, then it is a good thing I posted my experiences. I could have clammed up, not help the community, and then let the next guy feel the pain instead. See the tags (which I can't find now).

Also, FF4, chrono trigger, and FF6 vanilla are in fact great targets for a RNB run. Heck even a more hardcore game like DS3 is a good target, in my opinion. It's a better speedrunning target, but most games are.

 

PS. Bauglir do you play D&D?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, TheRebalancer said:

That's fair. I don't really have a goal with the NRB, other than to see if its doable without too much time invested. Its a video game, so fun is always a consideration. It does allow a two birds with one stone. NRBs are wierd, but they have been done in other games with even more in-your-face / you-must-fight-all-monsters paradigms. Lobos Jr has a great Dark Souls 1 run doing this called "clear Lordaeron" I think.

But wait, what is the "problem" you're referencing? I've asked for nothing aside from seeing if anyone had a game genie code to save me a half hour of grinding to put the run back on track as if I had known about the 30SP cap (which I could not have possibly known about without literally taking notes on someone speedrunning this game). If no one has a game genie code, that's fine.

If by "changes you made," you mean "how I played the run", then well yeah I do give some uniquely valuable feedback. But most of the feedback is not specific to a RNB run like the ellipsis comment. But a themed run isn't me editing the game similiar to FF Bob New Ross.

The fact is, you don't know until the first person tries. If you have to learn from my mistakes and not try a NRB run, then it is a good thing I posted my experiences. I could have clammed up, not help the community, and then let the next guy feel the pain instead. See the tags (which I can't find now).

Also, FF4, chrono trigger, and FF6 vanilla are in fact great targets for a RNB run. Heck even a more hardcore game like DS3 is a good target, in my opinion. It's a better speedrunning target, but most games are.

 

PS. Bauglir do you play D&D?

By "problem", I mean the issue that you can't proceed without grinding. If you had known about the cap, the extra SP you would have had might have been enough to make the difference, and that's all well and good, but the fundamental issue I'm trying to point out is that you're criticizing the game for being inconvenient, when you've chosen to deny yourself the conveniences that can be gained by fighting occasional random encounters. If convenience were something you really cared about, you shouldn't have done a challenge run. If the challenge is something you really cared about, then these inconveniences are a natural part of it, including the fact that you couldn't have been aware of some of the mechanics without advance experience. That's why people who do challenge runs successfully usually play through normally once, to explore the game, test its functionality, and get a feel for what is or is not supported.

Pointing out version mismatches and that sort of thing is useful, and thank you for doing that. Stuff like pause vs. ellipsis is a matter of taste, since I believe they both take the same amount of space in the dialogue banks, but it's fine to voice your opinion. Those kinds of comments are the ones nobody's addressing because nobody has any feelings on them one way or the other. They would both be likelier to be seen if they were clearly separated from your opinions that are influenced by your choice of run, like whether or not there's a Monster-In-A-Box in the collapsing house in Tzen.

The changes you made include the cheat codes you used - if you're not aware, those work by altering the game's data. They're functionally equivalent to very small patches, and do not take advantage of any functionality that's actually built into the game. The only difference between them and something like Bob New Ross is scale and some technical details.

PS. Why do you ask?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0