Darkcelestrian

Pokemon "Crits"

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Not sure if this is still a thing in v9 cuz I haven't played it much since the alpha was first released on ID but the pokemon random 9999's...can that like go away please XD? Doing a no celebi/schala ring, and no found illusion playthrough of v8 hardmode and having all 3 of my party members with full hp and stats up die to that 9999 stuff is just heartbreaking. Party wide or single target, it's just cheap as hell. Thought that's why instant death was in for and there's already gear that blocks it.

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The 9999 power creep is what happens when you overload the player with gear that blocks too many things at once.  Fortunately, it's been scaled back considerably in v9.  I think only Ozma still has it, although I don't remember at this point.

P.S. The pokemon battle is what I was thinking of as the "hardest" fight, although Rosalina and Terra are close seconds.

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3 hours ago, Doomsday31415 said:

The 9999 power creep is what happens when you overload the player with gear that blocks too many things at once.  Fortunately, it's been scaled back considerably in v9.  I think only Ozma still has it, although I don't remember at this point.

P.S. The pokemon battle is what I was thinking of as the "hardest" fight, although Rosalina and Terra are close seconds.

Ah that's good to know. I mean red's pretty hard yeah but may and dawn not so much, it's only the 9999 chance that makes the fights somewhat difficult. I can plow through all of the fights with the exception of the final ones from each of the 2 and even then I can be reckless more often then I should. The fight against all 3 lake gaurdians is alright though, feels like fighting a mini omega weapon in which it should.

Edited by Darkcelestrian
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On 11/13/2017 at 4:48 PM, Doomsday31415 said:

The 9999 power creep is what happens when you overload the player with gear that blocks too many things at once.  Fortunately, it's been scaled back considerably in v9.  I think only Ozma still has it, although I don't remember at this point.

P.S. The pokemon battle is what I was thinking of as the "hardest" fight, although Rosalina and Terra are close seconds.

On 11/13/2017 at 5:20 PM, Darkcelestrian said:

Ah that's good to know. I mean red's pretty hard yeah but may and dawn not so much, it's only the 9999 chance that makes the fights somewhat difficult. I can plow through all of the fights with the exception of the final ones from each of the 2 and even then I can be reckless more often then I should. The fight against all 3 lake gaurdians is alright though, feels like fighting a mini omega weapon in which it should.

That's kind of a lie because going in with pure defense, m'def gear on either may or dawn with no immunities I'd still get 9999'd almost 90% of the time by any of the pokemon. I mean it's a moot point since v9 is the version to talk about now an days and I'm playing hard mode primarily but atleast when I fight a boss like xion, magus, or shadow queen, and a few others it's mostly reliant on my ability to time block and manage my resources properly. With the pokemon and yes, only the pokemon I've gotten one shotted more times than any other boss with meteor. Not sure if Dk checks the forums now but he really needs to keep his pokemon boner in check lol. Haven't played many pokemon games but I know for a fact that attacks that can one shot you can't do so as often as in the hack. But that's where my no celebi rule ends for v8 cuz for those fights you pretty much need it unless you just get really, really lucky with the 9999's.

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10 minutes ago, Darkcelestrian said:

That's kind of a lie because going in with pure defense, m'def gear on either may or dawn with no immunities I'd still get 9999'd almost 90% of the time by any of the pokemon. I mean it's a moot point since v9 is the version to talk about now an days and I'm playing hard mode primarily but atleast when I fight a boss like xion, magus, or shadow queen, and a few others it's mostly reliant on my ability to time block and manage my resources properly. With the pokemon and yes, only the pokemon I've gotten one shotted more times than any other boss with meteor. Not sure if Dk checks the forums now but he really needs to keep his pokemon boner in check lol. Haven't played many pokemon games but I know for a fact that attacks that can one shot you can't do so as often as in the hack. But that's where my no celebi rule ends for v8 cuz for those fights you pretty much need it unless you just get really, really lucky with the 9999's.

What's a lie?  The fact is that healing became so effective that the only way to threaten the player is to insta-kill them with something that can't be blocked without invincibility.  Even THAT gets countered by some of the end game fights, leaving an unblockable, random insta-kill.

And yeah, I can't imagine beating the trio without Celebi's invincibility.  The only thing able to counter their broken attack pattern is Celebi's broken invincibility.

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6 hours ago, Doomsday31415 said:

What's a lie?  The fact is that healing became so effective that the only way to threaten the player is to insta-kill them with something that can't be blocked without invincibility.  Even THAT gets countered by some of the end game fights, leaving an unblockable, random insta-kill.

And yeah, I can't imagine beating the trio without Celebi's invincibility.  The only thing able to counter their broken attack pattern is Celebi's broken invincibility.

Healing didn't become so effective. It's always been effective but there were a lot of bosses placed in reasonable positions holding gear you need to progress further in the hack that did a shit ton of damage and didn't have attacks that you needed absolute invincibility for so that if you fucked up you're most likely dead. Even with the healing options you have to choose between wasting turns healing and not out damaging the heal many bosses already have, or taking the risk to do the damage and see whether you can get away with it or not. You can't cheese Rosalina with just a ultima, dark star, meteor, or physical attack on it's own every turn while the other 2 heal and buff you. You have to take the risk and do enough damage so that you're closer to actually out-damaging the boss's heal and not winding up in a weird sort of purgatory until you run out of items. Two wrongs do not make a right. Your "healing is too effective" argument crashes and burns when you have to take into account, damage you're sustaining, debuffs that decrease your damage done and increases damage done to you or just fucking deny you the ability to do damage or live if you don't have immunity against it, and the occasional hp/life heal that bosses have. Bosses being able to go 2-4 turns in a row, bosses having group wide attacks that hit you multiple times that can wipe you if you're not careful or strong enough, bosses that debuff you while doing a crap ton of damage, or all of the above are perfectly reasonable because it's something you can deal with without losing the whole fight. Mother fucker this is a boss gauntlet where every fking enemy can do all of the things I listed while also having attacks (not just 1 attack but many) that can do 9999 damage regardless of whatever fking armor you have to the WHOLE PARTY and one of them holds armor you practically need if you want to fight bosses like magus and do the boss rush?! No. That's a shitty designed fight and I know so because I've beat all the ff bosses, jinx, shadow queen, and fking larxene before coming to the pokemon trainers plus yiazmat from v7.8 can show you how to do instant death that ignores death protection while also being challenging even without it right. Maybe if it was just for rayquaza, giratina, and arceus and then have that shit for most if not all the pokemon for red because you can save him as the penultimate fight behind xion but no it's every fking pokemon. Don't even get me started on the lake gaurdians in dawns battle since they can counter you with physic which lowers your m.def and has a chance to 9999 you while also taking 3 turns each. Also you mention that it gets countered by end game fights because a lot of them have effects like dispel so it's not just a simple tank and spank....and it's fair and exceptable there because they're the very late game bosses. It should be like that but may and dawn are bosses you can take on any time after you catch the pokemon that they want you to catch and dawn holds the platinum armor which is something you'll want a lot before taking on something like the boss rush...or magus and even then on hard mode that doesn't account for much if you're shit at timed blocking or you just keep a character below like 800hp when the boss starts it's turn. Stop fucking telling people the healing is broken because it's not. It never was and before the stupid pokemon bullshit was put it there was many bosses that could easily take you from 100 to 0 with their damage alone or leave you so desperate for heals that you can't even focus on dps'ing it down before they unleash their onslaught upon you again. Hell the only real LIKE...really real exception to that should be Ozma because I understand DK's pain when fighting that boss because in ff9 it is actually based on luck because meteor can kill all of your party alright and you can't do shit about it but wait rayquaza has that ability aswell lmao. Stop bullshitting me, if all the pokemon didn't have that 9999 crap then may and dawn would be ....EASY...or moderate difficulty at the very least with the exception of groudon, giratina, arceus, and the lake gaurdians which can be hard.

Edited by Darkcelestrian
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3 hours ago, Darkcelestrian said:

Healing didn't become so effective. It's always been effective but there were a lot of bosses placed in reasonable positions holding gear you need to progress further in the hack that did a shit ton of damage and didn't have attacks that you needed absolute invincibility for so that if you fucked up you're most likely dead. Even with the healing options you have to choose between wasting turns healing and not out damaging the heal many bosses already have, or taking the risk to do the damage and see whether you can get away with it or not. You can't cheese heal Rosalina with just a ultima, dark star, meteor, or physical attack on it's own every turn while the other 2 heal and buff you. You have to take the risk and do enough damage so that you're closer to actually out-damaging the boss's heal and not winding up in a weird sort of purgatory until you run out of items. Two wrongs do not make a right. Your "healing is too effective" argument crashes and burns when you have to take into account, damage you're sustaining, debuffs that decrease your damage done and increases damage done to you or just fucking deny you the ability to do damage or live if you don't have immunity against it, and the occasional hp/life heal that bosses have. Bosses being able to go 2-4 turns in a row, bosses having group wide attacks that hit you multiple times that can wipe you if you're not careful or strong enough, bosses that debuff you while doing a crap ton of damage, or all of the above are perfectly reasonable because it's something you can deal with without losing the whole fight. Mother fucker this is a boss gauntlet when every fking enemy can do all of the things I listed while also having attacks (not just 1 attack but many) that can do 9999 damage regardless of whatever fking armor you have to the WHOLE PARTY and one of them holds armor you practically need if you want to fight bosses like magus and do the boss rush?! No. That's a shitty designed fight and I know so because I've beat all the ff bosses, jinx, shadow queen, and fking larxene before coming to the pokemon trainers plus yiazmat from v7.8 can show you how to do instant death that ignores death protection while also being challenging even without it right. Maybe if it was just for rayquaza, giratina, and arceus and then have that shit for most if not all the pokemon for red because you can save him as the penultimate fight behind xion but no it's every fking pokemon. Don't even get me started on the lake gaurdians in dawns battle since they can counter you with physic which lowers your m.def and has a chance to 9999 you while also taking 3 turns each. Also you mention that it gets countered by end game fights because a lot of them have effects like dispel so it's not just a simple tank and spank....and it's fair and exceptable there because they're the very late game bosses. It should be like that but may and dawn are bosses you can take on any time after you catch the pokemon that they want you to catch and dawn holds the platinum armor which is something you'll want a lot before taking on something like the boss rush...or magus and even then on hard mode that doesn't account for much if you're shit at timed blocking or you just keep a character below like 800hp when the boss starts it's turn. Stop fucking telling the healing is broken because it's not. It never was and before the stupid pokemon bullshit was put it there was many bosses that could easily take you from 100 to 0 with their damage alone or leave you so desperate for heals that you can't even focus on dps'ing it down before they unleash their onslaught upon you again. Hell the only real LIKE...really real exception to that should be Ozma because I understand DK's pain when fighting that boss because in ff9 it is actually based on luck because meteor can kill all of your party alright and you can't do shit about it but wait rayquaza has that ability aswell lmao. Stop bullshitting me, if all the pokemon didn't have that 9999 crap then may and dawn would be ....EASY...or moderate difficulty at the very least with the exception of groudon, giratina, arceus, and the lake gaurdians which can be hard.

I have beaten these fights with celebi but now I want to do so without it and without using found illusions or whatever other crap like it and it pisses me off that I can't lol.

Edited by Darkcelestrian
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At the very least the may and dawn fights can be like fights you'd only tackle at the very end of the hack like before you fight Rosalina, red, xion, or magus to a lesser extent after you've already gotten the platinum armor. Soul dew can be like something dawn gives you and may gives you something that can be good but not something you'd really need.

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Your complaints against the random 9999 attacks are valid, but I feel like you kinda just glossed over the part where Doomsday already mentioned that there is going to be way less of them in v9, with Ozma being the exception since that was his gimmick back in FF9.

As for the amount of healing getting out of hand, it kinda really was when you could just put Regen on someone which would heal them fully when their turn came up, so if an attack didn't kill them outright it basically didn't matter, so someone can just stock up on Mighty Guards to apply a full party Regen and stat buffs in one turn, combined with getting full elemental resist and status resist through equipment.

But again, I agree it was getting out of hand with all these things piling up in v8, but just from what I've heard many of these issue are already being addressed for v9, including the removal of the Invulnerability buff so it's not even a balance concern.
If I heard right I think it was getting changed to a 50% damage resist that stacks with defense up, but I'm not sure, info is kinda scattered all about and not really consolidated very well, so I'm sure there's a lot I am missing.

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3 hours ago, A Dummy said:

Your complaints against the random 9999 attacks are valid, but I feel like you kinda just glossed over the part where Doomsday already mentioned that there is going to be way less of them in v9, with Ozma being the exception since that was his gimmick back in FF9.

As for the amount of healing getting out of hand, it kinda really was when you could just put Regen on someone which would heal them fully when their turn came up, so if an attack didn't kill them outright it basically didn't matter, so someone can just stock up on Mighty Guards to apply a full party Regen and stat buffs in one turn, combined with getting full elemental resist and status resist through equipment.

But again, I agree it was getting out of hand with all these things piling up in v8, but just from what I've heard many of these issue are already being addressed for v9, including the removal of the Invulnerability buff so it's not even a balance concern.
If I heard right I think it was getting changed to a 50% damage resist that stacks with defense up, but I'm not sure, info is kinda scattered all about and not really consolidated very well, so I'm sure there's a lot I am missing.

Key word being less when it should be none imho. My problem with may and dawn and his reply to me is the fact that that gimmick with the pokemon that allows them to do that is the only reason why any of them are hard to begin with and "broken invincibility" being the only way to beat them is not right at all. It's a mini boss rush and you don't get anything but a game over if you don't beat all of the bosses in it so if your run out of HM guards during it then tough luck. Plus the final v9 isn't out yet anyway so saying that it's not much of an issue in v9 doesn't justify it and I'm complaining about this because I think that before v9 is finished and released maybe the pokemon should just be relatively stronger with a 9999 attack that only hits one target or just not be able to do 9999 damage regardless of stats at all. Ya keep insisting that regen is just so broken for full healing you when you still die from pretty much every super boss turn rotation, plus if your stats get lowered, or you get inflicted with a status effect, or if the boss can counter, putting your character at low enough hp to be KO'd in the upcoming boss turn then it really won't matter. It still forces you to take up one or two of the characters turns to heal most of the stuff or risk dying anyway. Stocking up of HM Gaurds won't really help you when Rydia or Mysterious girl KO's one or two of the party with meteor then the last person gets chomped on by bahamut, HM Gaurds won't save you when omega wave cannons you twice, then earthquakes and kills everybody, nor will it help you when magus or xion counters you after you attack them cuz your regenerated hp will be mostly gone unless you heal which is something you'd do if you wasn't regenerating anyway. Granted it is very beneficial to get a full heal at the start of a turn for 3 turns but that really isn't screaming broken when bosses are just shy of one shotting you with their abilities and/or physical attacks regardless.

The power of the characters and/or items should not be gimped to account for overall boss strength, the boss should be made stronger but not so strong or broken that the fight borders on the line of impossibility unless you use a consumable item. The only character that can even obtain gear that blocks almost everything statuses and elements alike is peach, everyone else is hampered down by only having armor/accessories that block statuses and halve's elements or nulls one element unless they have the lazy shell which kills damage potential and even then they can still die in common situations.

The whole point of what I'm saying is that bosses should be beatable without things like invincibility, or hell even regen to begin with. If it can still wipe your party with it's damage despite you having gear that gives auto stats up at the start of battle, blocks status effects and halves elements then tough shit try again unless the damage is too high for you to take despite having the best gear you can have at the time. But if said boss is wiping you with a ability that's coded specifically to kill you or your entire party regardless of whether or not you have max hp, resist everything unless you have the power of god itself is bullshit and should not exist especially if said boss has gear that you need to progress to the end. Imo regen wasn't the broken thing, it was celebi and I don't think anybody would really mind if the celebi item was removed.

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Let me preface this by saying v8 is the first version I played, so I don't know what healing was like before.  I did play through v7.9 eventually, but it just wasn't as interesting.

First, some theorycrafting.  There are three general states a player will be in during an RPG boss battle: Offensive, Defensive, and Critical. 

  • Offensive means that the player can ignore the actions of the boss and just do the same thing every turn.  For example, if all the damage the boss deals can be healed by the healer every turn and the other two can attack freely to beat the boss. 
  • Defensive means the player has to pay attention to the the boss's actions and react accordingly.  They can still deal damage and potentially defeat the boss, but any mistakes can result going into Critical or even an outright Game Over.
  • Critical means the player is backed into a corner, and unable to deal any significant damage to the boss without facing a Game Over.  When this happens, the player needs to work to get back to Defensive.

Ideally, the player will spend most of their time in Defensive, with occasional jumps to Critical from minor mistakes and certain, infrequent attacks.  Being in Offensive for brief periods is fine, but beyond that will just be boring.

The problem with the healing in v8 is that it's almost impossible to be in Defensive.  If the boss doesn't deal enough damage to outright kill a character, Peach, Regen, or Kerocola can fully heal them every turn.  Furthermore, equipment is overloaded with too much status and element protection, meaning there's no threat from those either.  This necessitates that bosses use very absurd attacks, such as constant insta-kills, just to remain a threat.  Sure, sometimes a character will die and you'll have to deal with it, but until that happens, you can just ignore the boss's attacks.

Celebi then compounds this problem even further, since invincibility counters not just insta-kill, but everything in general.  It's why the hardest bosses have "Celebi counters": it's the only way to remain relevant.

To be clear, I'm not saying v9 will completely address the healing creep.  In some ways, it makes it worse: there are now items that fully heal and revive, or don't even cost a turn to use.  This will result in an item creep where the player will either have to grind for items or fight at a severe handicap.  Fortunately, invincibility is now only 50% reduction, status efffects are harder to block, and equipment in general has more weaknesses.

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49 minutes ago, Darkcelestrian said:

Key word being less when it should be none imho.

To be fair, I said less because I don't remember if anyone still has Meteor besides Ozma, and I don't remember if Meteor was nerfed.

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3 hours ago, Doomsday31415 said:

To be fair, I said less because I don't remember if anyone still has Meteor besides Ozma, and I don't remember if Meteor was nerfed.

I'm just saying the pokemon should not have abilities that's like meteor, hydro pump, fire blast, shadow force, psychic, solar beam. Even Celebi has psychic and solar beam like wtf XD. These abilities should just do a lot of damage like fissure being more powerful than earthquake and will kill someone if they're hit with def down before it's used.

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Just now, Darkcelestrian said:

I'm just saying the pokemon should not have abilities that's like meteor, hydro pump, fire blast, shadow force, psychic, solar beam. Even Celebi has psychic and solar beam like wtf XD. These abilities should just do a lot of damage like fissure being more powerful than earthquake and will kill someone if they're hit with def down before it's used.

All of those moves have been nerfed to no longer randomly insta kill, with the possible exception of Meteor.

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3 hours ago, Doomsday31415 said:

All of those moves have been nerfed to no longer randomly insta kill, with the possible exception of Meteor.

Ok that's what I was crying about thank you, very sorry I went off like it did. That being said, they can be way more damaging like fissure being more powerful than earthquake and would do like 2k damage to someone if they was hit with def down cuz the fights really are easy when you aren't getting randomly nine'd and that's without even relying on regen

Edited by Darkcelestrian
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Oh, don't worry.  There are attacks that can do well over 10k damage if you have the wrong elements equipped.

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