Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Yuyu

Changes to Phoenix Down.

8 posts in this topic

After some discussion in the Discord, I think it would be apt to put it here for further opinion. 

Before now, Phoenix Downs were healing 1/16 of a character's total life. In the beginning of the game, this is basically trash. However, come late game, it became obvious that it was a good amount of HP compared to what using Life would be.

For such a cheap, but useful, item to remain cheap in the early game but no longer effect becoming a cheap alternative to Life in the late game, it was dropped to 1 HP, life got a boost to healing [250+0...250 (based on Magic)] (I think).

Now the thought behind just making it 1 is because it's not useful in the beginning sections of the game so why bother with anything more? It usually doesn't heal anything worthwhile as you have so little life in the beginning. 

So, why not let it do something useful while leaving it competitive against Life, but ultimately costly? As follows, and remember I'm using 65 HP when I refer to Phoenix Downs.:

65 HP would be roughly enough to cover a large pool of HP in the earliest game before Edgar, helps recover you with a three person party who can throw a phoenix down followed by a dried meat and recover all or almost most of your HP. Once yo get Sabin, you now have the option to work with two dried meats instead of one, keeping up with an increased cost but sturdier recovery option (265 max with 3 consumables)

 

This also benefits the scenarios (pretty well actually) as sometimes 65 HP is enough to let Hell Angel smack Celes and still let Locke get a heal in. Helps in the basement as well, let's either take a hit and get a heal in. 

Sabin+Shadow can get away with Phoenix Down and a Dried Meat until Cyan were you can more safely, but without Shadow for a moment you have two sturdy characters that 65 should let them take a hit. Once you have Gau, you have the safe Phoenix Down and Dried Meat to get 165 HP back, letting Gau probably stand up more often than fall down. Someone failed Standing Class.

 

For Kefka at Narshe, you can build two full parties, so now you can use two Dried Meats with the Phoenix Down for a good recovery, or just one Dried Meat for an decent recovery. 

 

By the time you're heading to Zozo, you're already fairly sturdy, can get Red Bulls, so you have the option of 65 HP plus two Dried Meats, a Dried Meat and a Red Bull, or two Red Bulls to give a fair range of recovery for your team.

And then you get magic and can now have a more powerful but not so much so that 265 (Phoenix Down + 2x Dried Meat, or perhaps a Red Bull for turn efficiency) isn't also a good option for those without life. Life continues to be a good option, but at the cost of one turn and 12 MP for [250+0...250 (based on Magic)], as opposed to two turns (Phoenix Down + Dried Meat/Red Bull) for 165/265 HP, or three turns (Phoenix Down + (Dried Meat x2/Dried Meat + Red Bull/Red Bull x2)) for 265/365/465 HP. I think the turn and consumable trade off makes it comparable to Life without overshadowing the fact it only takes 12 MP and a single turn.

That is what I propose for the Phoeni Down. It'll be a huge help in the World of Balance this way, while letting Life keep its glory of being fast, big recovery.

I mean hell, you can augment it with a Dried Meat, Red Bull, or even a cure for 4 MP and get more HP with a follow up recovery. So Life still outdoes the Phoenix Down overall, but this let's be a sturdy option into the late game.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah. If anyone does want to talk about it, I guess it can be left open. (BTB shot it out the saddle).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty okay with KOs being more challenging to deal with in combat. The Phoenix Down/Life changes place more emphasis on the healers and field medics and rewards thoughtful party composition, which I feel is very in-line with the spirit of BNW's changes from vanilla.

I had only one point in my early 1.9RC run so far where I was in a tight spot with respect to revival and action economy — I think it was while fighting Telstar in the imperial camp with Sabin and Shadow, and Shadow went down. Saving Shadow was too big a gamble, so Sabin had to just power through it solo. I felt like this added bit of challenge made it more exciting.

That said, I don't feel like the 65hp suggestion tips the scale too far in the other direction either — it preserves much of what the 1hp change is trying to accomplish later on, while making dealing with KOs in the pre-Zozo game (where your only choice is items) hypothetically less crippling. I guess I just didn't find it to be too big a deal.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aesthetically, a 50 or 100 HP revival would look better while being roughly the same. Could counteract this by raising the GP cost of Phoenix Downs? I notice all of your examples are of the tutorial (pre-Zozo) portion of the game, which I would think would be the point of the game where a cheap revival is least needed. Though Phoenix Downs are still needed for Zozo & IMF though, as you don't really have Life users until after the IMF.

I do agree with SirNewtonFig though: I do like how the "1 HP" change encourages thoughtful party composition later on.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think I've had a single issue using the new Phoenix Downs.

The only time I've been screwed by them is when I wasn't being careful with them. Raise your character with a "Hail Mary" measure, without making sure to time it so a heal will resolve afterwards, or that the enemy had attacked already, and of course you're going to waste them.

Edited by AbnormalVoid
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the 1 HP nerf. Items in Final Fantasy games are always stupidly overpowered anyways.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have nothing I could functionally use to make any counter points to all of yours, so I would best think this is good to be locked. Thank you for providing your thoughts on it, I would say I was rushed (personally) to make the change after hearing a single complaint, so I can definitely say it was perhaps too much too fast without enough backing.  

I can discuss with Funnyman on Discord my lack of Zozo-IMTRF later so as to not keep this thread going. (I thought Life was at least available to someone from the Zozo espers) 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0