praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

322 posts in this topic

I got the seeds to drop now, dropchance is just horribly low. Was a bit dismayed that the seed can still produce armor, so the chance to get weapons is even lower. Can the seeds produce items for class combinations that you did not take? If so, can D/D Hawk wield the D/L weapon, as there are no restrictions for armor. (In this case it would be Kongo Rakan)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't adjust the w/a seed drop table so you'll only get the current final weapons of your class.
I considered them even less essential than in vanilla so I didn't bother; there they were clearly the strongest weapon with a full STR multiplier more, here just an alternative roughly on par (I hope) with the rest.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I didn't adjust the w/a seed drop table so you'll only get the current final weapons of your class.
I considered them even less essential than in vanilla so I didn't bother; there they were clearly the strongest weapon with a full STR multiplier more, here just an alternative roughly on par (I hope) with the rest.

Ok, I get that and I find them interesting because of the possible builds based on them, and it's cool that they are not the obvious go-to. Considering my class combinations, for L/D-heal Kevin the W/A weapon still seems by far the best weapon at least for boss battles, and for my Buff/caster L/D Lise the W/A weapon complements her really well. On the other hand, for my D/D Hawk, the W/A weapon seems situational at best, and I think going with the petrify weapon for mobs and the anti-physical immunity weapon for bosses (because of it's high damage) would be the best choice. Making choices is interesting, and so in my opinion your design goals for them are fulfilled.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to bother you again, I wondered how the W/A weapon heal bonus works of the Holy Claw (L/D Kevin). Is it+1 heal power per tick (total of +8ish?) of tech power or per tier (total of +3)?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Praetarius,

I'm having a great time with this. I tested out a few teams and decided to restart with a new approach to team building. I'm finding balance and multiple options to be much more important in this mod than in the original.

I have some questions about a few of the final classes as I restart:

1) Swordmaster: His final weapon being dependent on critical hits, does he rank among Duran's final classes in terms of damage per time?

2) Duelist: You mentioned that his final weapon runs on MP - in what way? I could not find any note on this in the documentation.

3) Wanderer: I'm not seeing much of an endgame for this class, unless his Half Vanish becomes close to instant. It seems that his abilities have been spread out to other classes with better damage or support options.

4) More generally, do you have any summary of the strengths, weaknesses, or changes for each of the classes in this mod? This might be useful for someone just getting into this mod, with or without experience from the previous game.

Thanks!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) I didn't measure the dps, though you'd best pair him with Ninja Master for the analyze crit (de)buff and throw a lot of luck stat and crit gear on him.
70~80% crit rate? forgot how high but at least 50%+

2) no, I remembered wrong, the MP thing was a weapon design I thought of at one point but dropped.

3) give him his final weapon and he'll deal around buffed Angela level of spell damage to later bosses if not more.

4) only what is in the zip file

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3) This will be only true for the highest difficulty though, correct? Or does that 320 cap scale with the player damage bonus of lower difficulty levels?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could be wrong but I'm guessing that 320 damage means a lot more on the hardest difficulty level than it does on normal, where other characters might be able to melee that damage more easily or cast it more quickly, meaning that Hawk's Wanderer is a class that scales favorably with difficulty relative to other classes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also wondering about the Rogue's final weapon. Doubling his spell damage with luck could be a lot of fun. And it turns landmine into a MT shuriken? I previously shied away from this class but it's looking more attractive now. I suppose it's weakness relative to Hawk's other classes is that it lacks any debuffs or support for other characters.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hawk is the only class whose cast speed scales with spirit,
a defensive stat that boosts magic resist
a stat that allows him to learn spells as a wanderer
a stat that can allow him to skip strenght entirely with his Spirit weapon , therefore he doesnt even loose meele damage
0,5 second castspeed is what we are talking about two half vanishs make deathspell look like a joke ability in terms of dps
especially with a tree spirit ring on top of it.
dont underestimate the wanderer
he also has an int weapon that gives him bonus tech damage, capped str+int for low points , no str needed

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry for the flood of posts, I'm new to forum-ing and still learning the decorum. I will edit in the future. Since I can't delete the previous posts, I combine them here:

1) Vanadis's final weapon is described as giving her non-elemental spells the element of her saber, but her only non-elemental spell is Freya (besides Heal Light). This would imply the purpose of the weapon is to enhance Freya. But this spell reduces enemies to Chibikko state. What would be then be the purpose of having this spell do more damage, unless just for boss fights or enemies with immunity? (Forgive my ignorance, I've never played Vanadis since Star Lancer seemed so much better in the original, so I may not understand exactly how Freya works.)

2) Can dark-path Duran equip shields in this mod?

3) On the Wanderer topic, I watched some of the hardtype playthrough on YT and saw him regularly dealing much more than 320 with Half Vanish. Unless this was an older version of the mod, it seems that the 320 damage cap must be applied before other multipliers. Can you confirm this is still valid for the current version?

4) I think your formula for the double spell damage chance from the Rogue's final weapon may be backwards in the mechanics. You have it listed as "if RNG[0..127] > LUCK+3: damage×2", but this would imply that greater luck leads to less of a chance for double damage. Unless this is the point?

If you can and wish to delete the previous posts, please go right ahead.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Freya and non-elemental throw items; also several enemies are immune to chibikko state

2) yes, even without any class change at all

3) that was an old patch probably

4) yeah typo

5) I set them to hidden

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed when reading through the forums that Hawk's jutsu spells hit against physical defense. Are all of Hawk's spells like this, i.e. trap spells or breath spells, or is this something specific to jutsu spells? What about Carlie's summon spells? Also, does LVL damage for consumable spell items imply that the strength of these spells is stat-independent?

Edited by rpschamp
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All spells that deal damage based on STR, AGL or LUCK work against physical defense (STR is used on almost all boss-exclusive spells, nowhere else).

Consumable items deal damage based on the caster's level.
The Lv1-3 notifier is also used for spells and represents relative strength; around +15% for each half level.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So for physical spells like jutsus or traps, does Power Up or Mind Up affect their strength? I would assume that any spell that worked against physical defense would be enhanced by modifiers that increase physical attack.

Edited by rpschamp
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it should be mind up on caster but def down on target that affect the damage of his spells

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all your responses so far. I also noticed in one of the previous posts a reference to Carlie's "energy shields" which increase max MP by 10 and double MP regen, but I couldn't find anything like this in the documentation. These would be greatly helpful in the team I'm planning. What items were the poster referring to and do they exist in the current version of the mod?

Edited by rpschamp
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would be it. I don't remember that spell being so powerful in the original. Looks like Paladin has it too. I was thinking of casting it on a Necromancer since her most powerful spells cost so much MP. It will be a choice between Paladin and Lord for her partner on Duran's quest; I was initially leaning Lord but now I'm leaning Paladin.

What would you suggest between Paladin/Wanderer/Necromancer and Lord/Wanderer/Necromancer? With Paladin casting Anti-Magic I could go Rogue instead for extra damage, but I would lose the Poison and Mind Up. I know Bishop is always a great choice but I want to try Dark Carlie on this team.

I switched my initial plan to three groups, one for each final area, and my plan is to run the above group, Dervish/Arch Mage/Sage, and Dragon Master/Warrior Monk/Rune Master. All of these groups are pretty magic intensive but that's my preferred play style. One of the things I love about your mod is that more class combinations at least appear on paper to be more viable. From these groups, I get to try 9 of the 12 first class changes. I'm missing only Dark Duran, Light Lise, and Dark Hawk, which I know is a classic team itself and considered running for a fourth group, but in this mod it seems that buffs are not enough and I'd be hurting for healing and a way to deal with high physical defense.

Edited by rpschamp
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it was useless in vanilla; it did only half of what mind up does and can never be multi-target, also you can just buy mind up for almost nothing in the black market.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I switched up my teams one last time, one team per quest:

Quest 1: Team Sass - Duran, Hawk, Angela. This team is rocking big attitudes and big hair. Duran and Angela will go light, Hawk will go dark. The light classes will give me some options for heal and support at the second class change, but I'd love to pair Grand Divina with Ninja Master and just spam low MP sudden cast spells all day. Paladin or Arch Mage may be required though for Anti-magic to support Hawk's jutsus.

Quest 2: Team Spirit - Kevin, Lise, Carlie. This team holds it together with strong fundamentals. Kevin and Lise will go light, Carlie will go dark. Again the light classes will give me options for heal and support. Carlie will almost certainly go Necromancer to pair with Lise's stat-up spells, so I'm thinking God Hand for Kevin for the missing Saint Saber (especially if I can multi-target it plus Heal Light with the Whitelight Ring).

Quest 3: The Dream Team: Lise, Kevin, Angela. This team is the team I've always wanted to try but never had the motivation until this mod. Kevin will go light, Lise and Angela will go dark. I'm thinking Dragon Master, Warrior Monk, and Rune Master. This team will be very strong in the elements and excel in both physical and magical damage, with Lise having the option to work as more of a caster.

One question: Did you ever consider giving the Wanderer single-target Heal Light and Tinkle Rain? Or Moon and Leaf Sabers? All of the other characters have at least one Heal Light option: Duran, Kevin, and Carlie at the first class change, and Lise and Angela at the second. This would add Hawk to that second group with a limited healing option at the second class change and make him stronger in terms of basic support. It seems that the Wanderer, even spamming Half Vanish with his final weapon at a 320 damage cap, may have difficulty excelling in terms of damage, and his support options, while useful in many situations, don't cover the fundamentals: healing, stat recovery, buffs/debuffs, and sabers. Increasing his viability as a support character would make him much more useful on many teams, as you wouldn't need to make room for an extra healer. 

Edited by rpschamp
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really, I'd say he's good enough as is.

At his basic he's already a top tier fighter, basically #2 after Kevin.
3/4 classes are basically Angela light in terms of nuking.
Ninja Master can turn FenrirKnight Lise into a decent healer if both have their final weapons.
The dark classes are already an easy pick for most teams as they cover debuffs and lots of damage options.

I've a strict no for further characters to have both heal and anti-magic at the same time - that's paladin's niche - so no for Wanderer.
And rogue... he'd just be another Grand Divina.

Not everyone needs to cover all the fundamentals, that's what the rest of the team is for.
Wanderer Hawk covers more niche tactics.
Have you ever considered casting Lunatic on your team? Try it against certain bosses that love their fraction damage moves.
Or the opposite, Life Booster on the boss - helps with reaching the 320 damage cap for Half Vanish and has some affects on enemy AI;
ever had trouble with a boss that has a desperation move that heals him above the threshold and then lets him do it again *cough*black rabite*cough*
you can use Life Booster to trigger that move when you are ready, not the boss.

Admittedly I never knew what to do with Rogue - tons of unique spells, most stuck as ST because of animations with at most a debuff making him just another Nightblade.
Probably the hardest class to include in a team.
Though Heal Light just wouldn't fit into the class image I think.

If I "had" the option I'd have taken Heal Light from Kevin - but there's little else that fits his classes, so we're stuck at 5/6.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now