praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

322 posts in this topic

You're right that not everyone needs to cover the fundamentals. It just seems that with so many fundamentals to cover, including healing, buffs/debuffs, physical damage, magic damage, elemental damage, and dark/light damage, it's rarely the case that two party members cover enough of them to completely free up the third. I actually see this as more of a problem with Duran and Kevin than with Hawk: in how many cases is going dark with either of them a better option than going light, seeing that their light classes get healing (at the first class change!) and (in general) better buffs? Going light with these guys frees up other would-be healers to go dark, often enabling them to cover more of the fundamentals like magic damage or debuffs. I'm not suggesting that it's never beneficial for Duran or Kevin to go dark, or for Hawk to go light, it just seems that there are fewer groups for which, considering the entire course of the game, this actually makes sense.

I'm just thinking about this from a design perspective. How does the game entice players to explore other options? And I also get that choosing the best strategy is not always the main point: Duelist, Dervish, and Rogue just look like fun classes to play. Mostly, I want you to know that I appreciate your work and vision with this mod. I loved Secret of Mana as a teenager, and the sequel always held so much promise in terms of gameplay and mechanics. Getting a chance to play this and talk theory with the (re)designer is a total thrill for me :-)

Edited by rpschamp
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You kinda forgot anti-magic and aura wave in your list of things to cover.

I think my design idea was more that there is so much stuff you "need" that it is impossible to cover everything all the time.
And then have the player play around whatever they had to leave out.

Duelist fits relatively easy into teams with his sabers, aura wave, anti magic and strong mt tech.
For me the hardest classes to fit into a team were dark Kevin (mostly dark Duran with a bit more damage and less spells), dark Lise (there are a lot of alternatives with the full debuff set but light Lise has the only full buff set, so light is usually better) and light Hawk (usually too niche for what I want to do).

I'll be honest; for me SD3 held promise but never delivered on it.
If you play normally and don't go out of your way to grind you probably won't see the second class change.
Half the options are bugged (e.g. energy ball, wolf form, saber spells) or downright detrimental (Lv2/3 techs, damage spells trigger counter attacks and are barely more damaging than swinging a stick once)
and balance... needs some work (damage scaling for dual-hitters; you can debuff bosses to deal negligible damage but run into endgame ninja master and your party can randomly eat 500+ damage multitarget damage before you can ready your weapon).
And the thing where in battle you're unable to move faster than a snail while enemies clearly can...

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You are right about Duelist (there is still a chance I may choose him for my first team with dark Hawk and light Angela, especially now that I see that Grand Divina's final weapon can give me Saint Saber via Holy Ball). Duran in general is much more fun in your mod with strong and weak slash options and counter attacks, though I haven't played far enough to see how much more useful Level 3 techs have become.

For light Hawk, I've been thinking that throwing Moon and Leaf sabers on the Ranger would give him an attractive early niche (HP and MP recovery) to balance against the Ninja's (debuff options). It would also fit with light Hawk's Moon/Leaf theme.

Dark Kevin is more difficult, but perhaps more buffs or debuffs is the way to go.

SD3 delivered on it's basic battle engine and overall design ideas; it's the details and execution that were underdeveloped or rushed. Which is why your mod is so exciting! (Unfortunately there's not much at this point that can be done to fix the stories, which could have been MUCH more interesting in terms dark/light branching or character interactions.)

Edited by rpschamp
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Sorry but both light Hawks are at the 12 spell cap - I can't add additional spells for them.

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So, I'm nearing my first class change and I need to make a decision. My plans for my final two teams are pretty set, but my first team of Duran, Hawk, and Angela has some options. Please rank and/or let me know what you think about these potential teams:

1) Paladin, Ninja Master, Grand Divina: Two healers, two MT buffs, all debuffs with Anti-Magic to support them, and two instant casters with Level 1 MT spells, one hitting physical defense and the other magical defense. The strategy would be to spam these spells. No Aura Wave to support the Paladin though, and Speed Up ends up being be wasted on my two instant casters, except for Double Spell.

2) Lord, Ninja Master, Arch Mage: Similar to previous with one less healer and same buffs and debuffs, but now Speed Up will better serve Arch Mage with her Level 2 spells. Arch Mage can support Lord with Aura Wave on bosses, but her time might be better spent casting damage spells. Ninja Master and Arch Mage MT casting now staggered which may be better (or worse) to keep enemies back. No Turn Undead on non-undead enemies but I never loved the over-level strategies anyways.

3) Paladin, Wanderer, Arch Mage: One healer, no debuffs before the second class change, and no instant MT support, but now the two most important buffs and debuffs that don't need Anti-Magic support, including Mind Up to support Arch Mage, and two classes with Aura Wave to support Paladin so the more important damage spell caster can keep at her task. Also two classes with Anti-Magic for more caster options or group treatment if necessary. The ability to inflict poison status should also be useful in several situations.

4) Lord, Wanderer, Arch Mage: Similar to previous but now three buffs and three debuffs. Speed Up will serve both Arch Mage and Wanderer well. Aura Wave on Lord will be less useful for groups but more useful on bosses and single enemies I'd prefer to snipe. There is a lot of skill overlap here but the skills are all good, and the team synergy seems strong.

Right now, my preference leans towards 2) or 4), with 1) behind and 3) in the rear. The immediate decision I have to make is whether to make Hawk light or dark at the first class change. I'm intrigued by the Wanderer's potential, and Mind Up would be great, but losing the debuffs at the first class change and MT Shuriken at the second seems like a lot to give up.

Edited by rpschamp
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It seems like your overthinking this?
Unless you're playing on hard the differences shouldn't matter too much.
Just go with your intuition.

If you're really unsure - go with 1 and you essentially can't die with all the healing, imo a good way to earn some play experience.

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Thanks for the advice!

What is the Dervish's Berserker wolf form, by the way? Is it a buffed version of his normal wolf form, or is it an entirely new color palette? Is it on automatic attack or no spells or techs?

Edited by rpschamp
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Just an update, I ended up scrapping those teams and simplifying my approach with just two teams I think have more creative potential:

1) Paladin/Lord, Wanderer, Necromancer: I'm really intrigued by the damage potential of the Necromancer. Her skills are generally high MP, but Paladin can support that with Magic Shield, or Lord with Speed Up in case I decide to give her Rune Earrings. Necromancer also supplies Paladin's missing Tinkle Rain and gives another saber option. Wanderer can support Necromancer with Mind Up and Paladin/Lord with Aura Wave. If it looks like I'll need extra physical damage, Aura Wave will work great with the Lord's final weapon and level 2/3 techs. Power Up is missing but Paladin/Lord can use seeds. Also, both Wanderer and Necromancer have Half Vanish for high MP defense battles.

2a) Vanadis, Dervish, Arch Mage: This team has everything except elemental sabers: healing, all buffs/debuffs, Anti-Magic, Aura Wave, strong physical attack, strong magical attack with element diversity. I was never a fan of Vanadis's summon, but if Chibikko gives you experience now, it might actually be useful. In fact, this team may be TOO good, in which case I may go with:

2b) Dragon Master/Fenrir Knight, God Hand/Warrior Monk, Rune Master: Angela would have better sniping ability here and elemental sabers to support the team. Kevin would get Heal Light at the first class change. Dragon Master may be the better choice here for Anti-Magic, but Rune Master may be able to snipe most enemies that need it, and Fenrir Knight's final weapon looks amazing for support. God Hand for Tinkle Rain or Warrior Monk for Mind Up, whichever seems more useful by my second class change. (I also considered a strategy based around Death Hand's final weapon and Lise's debuffs, but in the end it seemed impractical and maybe a little slow when Kevin could just be using his Power Up'ed/sabered level 1 tech instead.) The disadvantages here would be no Protect Up or Speed Up and no Aura Wave, but I can buy seeds for the buffs if necessary and Kevin in general seems fine with his level 1 tech. Also, no Pink Typhoon. In the end, this team has more holes than the previous, but it may have better damage potential and may ultimately be more fun to play.

Thanks for your helpful responses and insight. Hopefully by the first class change I'll have decided which 2) to go with.

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Chibikko gives exp but not the value of the original enemy; the state basically erases the original enemy and spawns a new one.
In vanilla this enemy type had 0% exp rate, here it has about 40%.

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I've got some questions about your mod's mechanics:
1) If you cast Sleep on enemies, will it lower their aggro?
2) Lord's ultimate weapon (Sigmund) has a description, "Lv2/3 tech gets attack bonus based on target's attack and enables counterable state." What does the note "enables counterable state" mean?
3) Will Evil Shaman's ultimate weapon (Juggernaut) and the Red Moon Horn accessory lower even bosses' stats?

Edited by Serafie1999AD
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1) no

2) it activates the timer during which a Lv1 tech would count as a counter

3) yes

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2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

1) no

I see, I misinterpreted the part in the change overview file that said:

Quote

aggro bonus is negated by death, petrification, snowman and sleep

Do you have any practical strategies for using Sleep Flower? For the first 3 playthroughs of Sin of Mana, the spell has been utterly useless, and I have never found any use for it.

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If it is the change I think it is, that refers to Duran's shields - they do not provide increased aggro while he is incapacitated.

No special strategies - just use it to disable some troublesome enemies and then take the pack on 1 by 1 or profit from the increased crit chance on the waking-up hit;
also, no boss is vulnerable to it - there were some sleepwalkers >.>

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57 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

also, no boss is vulnerable to it - there were some sleepwalkers >.>

there is one boss who is 1/3rd vulnerable to it ^^

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What does "spell upgrade: curse" do? I apologize if I missed this somewhere in the documentation.

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Are the accessories that grant weapon element function the same as saber spells, i.e. do they increase damage of spells cast from that element? (I tested this and it seems to work.)

Edited by rpschamp
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That's interesting, I seemed to get a 10% damage boost with and only with Fireball when I equipped the fire-element one I got from the Dwarf Village. I will test in more detail later.

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Also, can self-target spells, like the Magus's Mind Up or the Rogue's Speed Up, be upgraded to multitarget?

Edited by rpschamp
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Yes, they can be upgraded.

Those were mostly meant as a "accessoire tax".
For those classes no additional spell was too weak but a normal single target spell a bit too good (relative to what the whole class can do);
but multi-target at the cost of one accessoire slot - sure, why not.

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