praetarius5018

Seiken Densetsu 3 Sin of Mana - Discussion

579 posts in this topic

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Well beat him again, well he is more manageable when the game agree to cooperate beat at LV60 this time, still took over 30 minutes.
Also I realise that in my previous victory at LV57 I wasn't paying attention and was on Luna day, so I make him harder as his Spiral Moon was stronger, so that was my mistake. The part when he cast Moon Saber can be a pain cause after that his regular attack can hit for over 600 damage if he land a crit (that's a one-shot basically), he doesn't use them to often but still have to take that in the equation.

Also Yeah now that you mention hit I think I was hit with an arrow trap with Hawk while I was grinding, I notice that the Smoke was putting in a sort of like Permanent and Uncurable Poison until I sleep in a inn or touch a gold statue, so I guess the arrow has a similar permanent statut ailment that prevent the character from gaining Tech Point ? 

EDIT : Nevermind the info about traps were in the Excel file, I must have read it but forget about it, my bad.

 

Edited by Nesouk
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Hello, I have registered exclusively to say that I love this mod, and I'd like to ask the author if he intends to address an issue that while minor, has bothered me for quite a long time.
(thanks for all the bugfixes by the way, they are amazing).

The issue in question has to do with Kevin's dark classes. I always suspected Dervish and Death Hand were reversed position wise regarding Kevin's class tree in the status screen and also the palettes were swapped around.
To substantiate my suspicions I ran a few tests and what I found is that both in the unpatched (Japanese) and English patched rom the palettes are indeed wrong for the sprites (they remain correct in both cases in the status screen itself.

As for the dark class branches being wrong, I actually found proof today in a table contained here: https://wiki.superfamicom.org/seiken-densetsu-3 
considering the format of the class index in the game's memory, it's pretty clear that Dervish is Dark-Light and Death Hand is Dark-Dark as I always suspected.


What I'd like to ask is if this is fixable in your hack and if so, if you'd be willing to integrate it.

I appreciate your time and keep up the good work.

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Well God beast of water down. Honnestly after the calamity that was Dolan this one wasn't to bad, the constant depletion of HP and the fact that he spent many time out of the range of my character (sometime casting while he isn't even on the screen cheap little bastard) was annoying, but his damage output wasn't to high. I had to use a specter's eye tough because is immune to Fire but putting Mind Down on him is a necessity so I needed Fire Jutsu.

Also post my videos of these fights if anyone interested :

Mispolm
Dangaard
Dolan

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12 hours ago, Red_Shine said:

As for the dark class branches being wrong, I actually found proof today in a table contained here: https://wiki.superfamicom.org/seiken-densetsu-3 
considering the format of the class index in the game's memory, it's pretty clear that Dervish is Dark-Light and Death Hand is Dark-Dark as I always suspected.

I don't see proof there, mind pointing it out?
All the game data I've seen has been in the regular order
Godhand, Warrior Monk, Death Hand, Dervish

But then again, what is the Light/Dark categorization? Ingame there's no mention of that concept, it only exists outside of it.

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3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I don't see proof there, mind pointing it out?
All the game data I've seen has been in the regular order
Godhand, Warrior Monk, Death Hand, Dervish

But then again, what is the Light/Dark categorization? Ingame there's no mention of that concept, it only exists outside of it.


Well, I believe the manual mentions it, and even if we are to discredit the manual, the classes on the lower branch have a clearly more "evil" theming to themselves: Death Hand's name and weapons (Skull Dissect) also the way the Duelist dresses, the fact Fenrir is the god devouring wolf during ragnarok and so on.

In any case, allow me to try to explain the table.

Let me use Duran as an example that follows the correct order that you pointed out.

 

The table data structure is as follows:

 

Class family is a value from 00 to 05, with 00 being the Fighter classes, 01 being the Grappler classes, and so on.

Class changes is 00 for the base class, 01 for a second-level class, and 02 for a third-level class.

Light-dark scale can range between 00 and 03, with 00 being light-light and 03 being dark-dark.

 


Fighter                00-00-00           Fighter
Fighter                00-01-00           Knight                    3-step cut
Fighter                00-01-01           Gladiator                Whirlwind Sword
Fighter                00-02-00           Paladin                   Flashing Sword
Fighter                00-02-01           Lord                       Magic Circle
Fighter                00-02-02           Swordmaster           Vacuum Blade
Fighter                00-02-03           Duelist                    Eruption Sword

This is Duran's table. Notice how dark class branches increment the last value with each class change (even if you don't care for the name of the branches, please bear with me for the sake of argument). Dashes aren't present on the table, I just added them for legibility.

Now for Kevin here's what you have:


Grappler              01-00-00           Grappler
Grappler              01-01-00           Monk              Whilwind Kick, Tornado Throw    
Grappler              01-01-01           Bashkar           Water-Moon Slice, Bastard Slam
Grappler              01-02-00           God Hand        Byakko Shockwave, Stardust Bomb         
Grappler              01-02-01           Warrior Monk   Genbu 100 Kick, Blow Impact
Grappler              01-02-02           Dervish           Suzaku Sky Dance, Veritubach (wrong translation, should be BTB, Belly to back, as in the throw move).
Grappler              01-02-03           Death Hand     Seiryuu Death Fist, Dead Crush

The index of the first value went up by 1 because I assume Kevin is the second character in memory. Notice that to match Duran's table, Death Hand should be the last class of the "low" branch.

A few more points of interest: Dervish and Death Hand have their palettes wrong, they are swapped around when you compare them to the status screen art, which would make zero sense unless something was afoot. (I can try to supply screen shots of this if you'd like).

Also, at least in vanilla SD3, Death Hand is clearly stronger, while Dervish has more survivability due to HP sapping saber magic. In terms of raw damage though Death Hand wins out, which doesn't match up with any of the other characters.

I'm not trying to convince you, but I honestly think the developers made a mistake.
            

     


 

Edited by Red_Shine
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I just think the table on that side is wrong,
everywhere in code I've looked it is by order of ids:
Godhand stuff
Warrior Monk stuff
Deathhand stuff
Dervish stuff

 

I think it'd help me more if you told me explicitly what you want changed.
Then I may look into it, no promises.

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1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

I just think the table on that side is wrong,
everywhere in code I've looked it is by order of ids:
Godhand stuff
Warrior Monk stuff
Deathhand stuff
Dervish stuff

 

I think it'd help me more if you told me explicitly what you want changed.
Then I may look into it, no promises.

Well, even if you aren't able to check it out, I appreciate the fact you've been replying.
I realize this may kind of sound like wild speculation out of nowhere, but the fact remains that at the very least the Death Hand and Dervish palettes are wrong on Kevin's map sprite (Death Hand has Dervish colors and vice versa, they look fine on the status screen though).

So if it was possible to revert the palette mix up, it would be great. If you were to go an extra mile I'd be extremely happy if you could change the class branching on the status screen for Kevin to read:

                Monk - God Hand

                         - Warrior Monk

Grappler --
                  Baskhar - Dervish

                               - Death Hand

Which I believe is the intended class branch order. I know it's a pretty nitpicky request, but there you have it.

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Never noticed about the swapped palletes, but Death hand not being dark-dark always bugged me out as well. It's purely aesthetic, but would be cool if it doesn't take too much work to fix

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1 minute ago, Kei said:

Never noticed about the swapped palletes, but Death hand not being dark-dark always bugged me out as well. It's purely aesthetic, but would be cool if it doesn't take too much work to fix

Haha I'm glad I'm not the only one that things so.

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Ok think I've got a glitch I was fighting the God Beast of Earth, fight was going normally but then the boss completly freeze and stop doing anything for the entire fight giving me basically a completly free win, unlike the god beast of wind however I didn't put any statut effect on him so I don't have a single clue about how this happen.

EDIT : Well beat him without the glitch this time :

Spoiler

I'd say it's honnestly the easiest God Beast so far, there is only 2 dangerous attack, Hammer Punch does 500 even with Protect Up and his Attack Down and Iron Claw does over 800 with buff and debuff apply but they are Single Target and I can survive them and heal afterward, other than that his spell doesn't hit hard at all, his crashball is annoying due to silence. I noticed that while he was absorbing Thunder Damage he still took a lot more damage from it than the other, so I theorize that after using Specter Eye to remove his absorption he would take more damage from thunder and apparently I was right, put on Jinn day to increase Thunder Damage and then :

-Like Dolan and Fiegmund he takes a while before coming so that's perfect time to buff I uses Magic Shield on all character with Carlie, Speed Up, Mind Up and Power Up with Lise.
-Once he comes down the usual Moon Coin, then Specter Eye and I apply all the debuff on him (save for Earth Jutsu cause he almost doesn't evade so no need to waste time on it).
-Use Thunder Saber with Carlie

And then Hawk does some serious damage (70-80 per hits I saw 160 with crit but seems he is resistant to Crit as even with Energy Ball and Detect Hawk almost didn't crit at all), Lise to (over 100) when he put his guard I use LV2/3 tech and summon (Marduke does some good damage here), when he uses Protect Up I use Thunder Jutsu and Carlie heals when needed and that's about it.

So Yeah easiest God Beast so far, however his dungeon was by far the hardest one, ennemies here where a pain in the ass to deal with (also FUCK these Cockabirds I hate them with all my soul) and this dungeon was long as fuck.

 

Edited by Nesouk
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Might be one of those "too long ago since you reloaded ingame" memory leak bugs?

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Landumber is formost just a tank.

Physical resistant which needs to be dispelled via Anti-Magic.
Actual weakness hidden behind absorb, also needs to be dispelled.
Casts Def Up which in his case stacks and also gives damage increase.

Iron Claw should be the most powerful move in the game.
You'd need some VIT, heavy armor, power down and def up to survive it.

He was only easy because you knew to use Anti-Magic; without he is probably unbeatable since he'll just outlast you.

 

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3 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Might be one of those "too long ago since you reloaded ingame" memory leak bugs?

I don't think, I barely use save state, and had just load the game (with a normal save).

Spoiler

Yeah I can see how troublesome he might be without Anti-Magic.

Well I just notice something odd then he used Iron Claw on Lise and Hawk in my fight and well here the weirdness :

-Hawk has 17 Vit and 149 Defense
-Lise has 23 Vit and 209 Defense

Both had Def Up and he has Power Down, yet Lise took far more damage from Iron Claw than Hawk (Hawk wasn't even on Critical HP after it hile Lise was), how is that possible ? I don't know.

So if Protect Up stack does that mean Thunder Jutsu wasn't countering it ??

 

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Iron Claw is earth elemental, which dark Hawk should naturally resist.

The stacking works like this:
normally def up/down just sets a flag or cancels the opposite flag.
His version additionally raises his base defense.
So Thunder Jutsu only cancels the def up flag or sets the def down flag, but his base defense stays increased.

 

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AH I see I can be thankfull he didn't cast it on Carlie who is naturally weak to Earth then.

 

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HMM got a softlock in the Ancient Ruin of Light, basically Lise and Carlie are froze in their casting preparation stance, their a bunch of number for damage around them, I theorize that's the Spiked armor type that results into to many information the game could handle, never happen before tough.

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So Lightgazer down :

Spoiler

What an annoying boss, the dude just keep teleport around (and his teleport animation takes forever) and bounce around.

Outside of that not a really hard fight, I get that he reduce my healing power drastically (like around 5 times wealer) and also get that he put Saint Saber on me so that my attack heals him (even after anti-magic), and I had to counter it using Carlie's Sabers (I don't know if he is weak to earth but after Diamond Saber my damage output was higher), the hardest part is actually the beginning when he chains 2 attacks AoE that deals a lot of damage, especially on Hawk (basically if the game don't let me open the menu between the 2 attacks Hawk is dead), actually outside of his Laser Eye attack (don't remember the name) Lise and Carlie were barely taking any damage from his other attacks, Hawk was the only one hard to keep alivedue to his innate weakness to light.

 

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heal reduction is -75%

weak to earth is correct

so you didn't notice that he strips away some maxHP with each attack?

 

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so you didn't notice that he strips away some maxHP with each attack?

Not at all, I guess the fight didn't last long enough for that to be relevant.

Anyway I'm on the Fire God Beast, I might have some issue here I guess that this is a DPS race, but seems this is one I can't win currently, I figure he is weak to Ice, but even with Ice Saber, Power Up, Speed Up, Mind Up and Defense Down, Mind Down, Speed Down and Lunatic on him it seems I just don't do enough damage on him to win, and eventually my characters end up with 100HP max and at that point he has an attack that can do 120 damage resulting in a wipe, maybe I should get rid of that flame in the back that allow him to get 999HP back.

 

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I'm not sure about it, but IIRC the furnace actually heals him to full, you need to kill it first

 

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Well in that case I have even less chance to win by the time I killed the furnace are already near 100HP, the problem is that Lava Wall attack that's his only move that deal over 100 damage and it's an AoE spell so there is nothing I can do against it.

 

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I think all of his moves either ignore defense or target just magic defense, so you could gear up on that; do you have fire resistance?

Heat Beam deals fraction damage but gets a bonus if the target is level wise above him.

Lava Wave is non-elemental and ignores defense. So only mind down helps.

The stove does heal fully. Likewise does ANY absorption (e.g. firesaber on you).
Also don't bother with removing fire absorption, he gets it back every time he targets himself.

You're almost done with him when he casts PowerUp.

It is really the best idea to tackle this boss early.

 

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I'm afraid Protect Amor (surive at cost of MP) might be your only bet at this point.

Or pay2win (coins, keep ice for the main boss, the stove is not weak to ice)

 

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The stove does heal fully. Likewise does ANY absorption (e.g. firesaber on you).

So basically that mean that if he cast Firesaber between Hawk first and second it and the second hit hits him that fully heals him ? That's kind of bullshit if it does, which he did to me while I had finally manage to reach his Power Up phase -_-.

Can you tell me how much HP he has so that I get an idea of how much I must deal ? 

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Nevermind manage to beat that fucker, it was my fault I realise that by the time I reach him through his dungeon, I realise that the day changed and was on a Salamando's Day making him harder, so I put on Undine's Day to increase Ice damage, also refill my inventory and I eventually manage to beat him.

 

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it's been well over a year, is development for this done? or should i keep on waiting for a update?

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