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ShadowNinja

Tone down Dadaluma

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Jump's damage can be mitigated by defending, and the time he spends in the air should mostly ensure that you have enough time to react.

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The concern I have with the Dadaluma fight isn't so much its difficulty but the unpleasant play experience it creates if he spends as much time in the air as on the ground.  It's just so much time during which you can't interact with the boss.  The situation I found myself in when I first attempted the fight (in 1.6, so grain of salt) was that I clearly could win, eventually, I just got bored before he died.  A friend of mine had a similar experience just a few weeks ago in his first playthrough (1.9); he did win on his first attempt, it just took a very long time, mostly because he was using fight with multiple characters on many turns.  I don't think it would be realistic to expect the player to discover the effects of their commands on Dadaluma's behavior; after a while, they're just trying to get in as much damage as possible between jumps.

My suggestion would be to make him jump slightly less often, maybe by changing the condition that causes him to jump from a counter of 3 to 4.  On the other hand, that does make him less dangerous.  To address that, maybe he could randomly jump 2/3 and elbow drop 1/3 along with the slim jim?  That's not really consistent with the joke/gimmick of the fight, though.  Just brainstorming.

Once you've studied the fight and understand the manipulations, there's no problem at all.  Even a level 3 party doesn't find Dadaluma to be a stumbling block (well, the fight is much easier than many other things in such a challenge.)  So I don't think his HP or regen or damage needs a nerf.  I just get annoyed by enemies that become invincible too often.

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7 hours ago, Miasmir said:

The concern I have with the Dadaluma fight isn't so much its difficulty but the unpleasant play experience it creates if he spends as much time in the air as on the ground.  It's just so much time during which you can't interact with the boss.  The situation I found myself in when I first attempted the fight (in 1.6, so grain of salt) was that I clearly could win, eventually, I just got bored before he died.  A friend of mine had a similar experience just a few weeks ago in his first playthrough (1.9); he did win on his first attempt, it just took a very long time, mostly because he was using fight with multiple characters on many turns.  I don't think it would be realistic to expect the player to discover the effects of their commands on Dadaluma's behavior; after a while, they're just trying to get in as much damage as possible between jumps.

My suggestion would be to make him jump slightly less often, maybe by changing the condition that causes him to jump from a counter of 3 to 4.  On the other hand, that does make him less dangerous.  To address that, maybe he could randomly jump 2/3 and elbow drop 1/3 along with the slim jim?  That's not really consistent with the joke/gimmick of the fight, though.  Just brainstorming.

Once you've studied the fight and understand the manipulations, there's no problem at all.  Even a level 3 party doesn't find Dadaluma to be a stumbling block (well, the fight is much easier than many other things in such a challenge.)  So I don't think his HP or regen or damage needs a nerf.  I just get annoyed by enemies that become invincible too often.

But isn't it par for the course that, when you get to a boss, you save, you try everything you can and then die, going in with more information next time?
Of course, being unable to always easily switchh characters is a bit of a bummer. But I think just about every party setup has some sufficiently strong stuff vs Dadaluma.

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38 minutes ago, Vaylen said:

But isn't it par for the course that, when you get to a boss, you save, you try everything you can and then die, going in with more information next time?
Of course, being unable to always easily switchh characters is a bit of a bummer. But I think just about every party setup has some sufficiently strong stuff vs Dadaluma.

This is true but there is an exception to this which is call "First Time" when you fight a boss for first time it can differ, such can be the case with Dadaluma the first time I fight him I was uninform and so not perfectly prepare and altough I win on the first try it tooks me like 15 minutes and let face it Dadaluma isn't that diversify of a fight so I can see how one can get old of him, however yeah if you lose on your first try yes you should try other strategy and set up and eventually pass it. 

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Just now, Nesouk said:

This is true but there is an exception to this which is call "First Time" when you fight a boss for first time it can differ, such can be the case with Dadaluma the first time I fight him I was uninform and so not perfectly prepare and altough I win on the first try it tooks me like 15 minutes and let face it Dadaluma isn't that diversify of a fight so I can see how one can get old of him, however yeah if you lose on your first try yes you should try other strategy and set up and eventually pass it. 

Yeah, first try can be hard. On the first try, I tend to jusk fuck around: Use all status available, all commands available(To check for counters) and stuff like that.
I remember Wrexsoul wrecking me pretty hard, cause my team lacked good offence or defence against it the first fight.
Sabin's random targeting made him useless.
Terra was my big damage dealer with morph n fire 3 - but she was also my best reviver/healer.
Edgar's damage just isn't that high to capitalize on Wrexsoul's short appearances.

After changing the setup a little - hell claws, more M.Def for Sabin(He'd get one shot by flare and nigh one shot by meteor) and keeping terra dead when he has posessed her, so she can't get re-posessed... he went down real quick.

So yeah, first time, fight seemed unbeatable. Second time, it was pretty quick.
Same goes for some other bosses which I fought pretty underlevelled. Wrecked Holy D thanks to Celes' runic, for example...

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It took me an embarrassing amount of time to think of defending Dadaluma's jump so I wiped a few times on my first play through. Once I did I beat him "first time" and he has been easy since. I attribute this to defend being pretty useless in most ff games and not because I had a brain fart, hmph!

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Hm, I remember only Edgar, Sabin, and Cyan being able to reliably survive a jump while defending. Locke and Shadow just didn't have the options for bulk that they'd need to survive the hit, Gau is always doing Gau things and so gets one-shot regardless, and I always geared Celes for Magic, which meant very low Def.

And of the three who can reliably survive, I remember Edgar being too slow to get a Defend command in before Big Daddy D came falling out of the sky, although Cyan's bulky enough to just eat the damned thing and shrug it off. Sabin required a defend, but his huge health and good speed easily let him get one in before eating The People's Elbow.

Of course, my memory is probably bad since I haven't done the fight in a while. I'll try to take notes the next time I do it in order to keep track of things, but I suppose this'll be a non-issue by then.

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Perhaps try getting good, and check your attitude.

 

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Posted (edited)

My problem with Dadaluma is that two crucial pieces of information are more or less completely opaque:

1) Slim Jim giving haste is only possible to see if you bring Scan or have stolen one and used it, and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Slim Jim just does regen + jump because that's already a lot of things for one attack to do. (Yes, I know it doesn't actually CAUSE the jump, but that's what it looks like to someone who doesn't know what Slim Jim does.)

2) Up until this point, counter-attacks have been very simple. Blitz Albatross, get Fireballed. Tools Tusker, get Gored. Then all of a sudden, Dadaluma has an extremely complicated script with multiple interacting counterattacks and incrementing variables and shit, with no indication of it.

 

My solution: An NPC in Zozo says "I've noticed Dadaluma gets lethargic after he eats..."

Another NPC in Zozo says something like "I've watched Dadaluma fight. He responds to every attack with exactly the same counter!" or "I've watched Dadaluma fight. His attacks are a lot more threatening than his counters!"

Now the relevant information is not completely hidden, and it's up to the player to figure out what it means. And if they don't talk to the NPCs, well, that's on them! And it has the added benefit of not changing the fight in any way, just giving the player some extra information going into it.

 

If this were added, then when someone inevitably complains about Dadaluma being too hard, we can be like, "Did you talk to all the NPCs?" rather than "Just figure it out!" and it feels a lot better as a player, knowing it was their fault they missed it, rather than the game just hides it.

Edited by Deschain
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16 hours ago, Deschain said:

My solution: An NPC in Zozo says "I've noticed Dadaluma gets lethargic after he eats..."Another NPC in Zozo says something like "I've watched Dadaluma fight. He responds to every attack with exactly the same counter!" or "I've watched Dadaluma fight. His attacks are a lot more threatening than his counters!"

Now the relevant information is not completely hidden, and it's up to the player to figure out what it means. And if they don't talk to the NPCs, well, that's on them! And it has the added benefit of not changing the fight in any way, just giving the player some extra information going into it.

 

If this were added, then when someone inevitably complains about Dadaluma being too hard, we can be like, "Did you talk to all the NPCs?" rather than "Just figure it out!" and it feels a lot better as a player, knowing it was their fault they missed it, rather than the game just hides it.

Pretty cool idea. More NPC interaction isn't bad, especially cause Zozo's so goofy with it.
I knew what Slim Jims did beforehand cause I stole them. Maybe one could make it a rare drop of one of the Zozo enemies and/or put a chest somewhere. The npcs could give more hints about his pattern in contrast to that, being a good learning experience as to what to expect from enemies in the future, too.

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Posted (edited)

Locke can take a hit from Jump even at level 10. You need to stack pdef of course but people forget Safety Gloves are basically additional shields. I usually run two of them plus a shield on Locke for Dadaluma (He’s a healer in my setup). Two Safety Gloves works well for Cranes too. 

Edited by Mishrak
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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Mishrak said:

Locke can take a hit from Jump even at level 10. You need to stack pdef of course but people forget Safety Gloves are basically additional shields. I usually run two of them plus a shield on Locke for Dadaluma (He’s a healer in my setup). Two Safety Gloves works well for Cranes too. 

Head Band, Ninja Gear and one safety Gloves and with Defending Locke take around 200 damage of a Jump I think with a shield, Green Beret's HP bonus, Mythryl Vest and 2 Safety Gloves he could survive a Jump around LV7-8, for Cranes depend of the build if you invest EL toward Kirin he will already be much harder to kill by the time you reach the Cranes.

Edited by Nesouk
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