Vaylen

Dark and Genji armor(suggestions)

39 posts in this topic

Hello there.

There are two oddities I noticed...

First is: Genji armor is one of the best armors on nigh everyone that can equip(Which is close to everyone). Feels especially strange that someone like Shadow can equip it. Shouldn't there be another option? Especially cause its stats can feel so awkward on many characters, as many do not care for one stat or the other - yet it is still their best option. Feels like the game is missing an armor to accomodate for that. It is nice to make a choice as to which character gets which armor... It is less nice when the choice is always the same.

Secondly... The Dark spell seems kind of pointless. Only rarely will one use it over Raze. And it is gotten on Odin~ Making it kind of a "meh" pickup. Celes' Merton is similarily of little use usually, but Crusader is at least important for a build of hers. Odin's equip bonus is very nice at least, but you often want Zoneseek for the summon(imo).
I'd propose giving the Dark spell to some other characters(Setzer/Mog, maybe?) and giving Strago something with actual use for him. Could be anything, really... Maybe something stamina-scaling to make that more of a build option(Fittingly coming with Odin).

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Regarding Genji Armor, I don't have any strong opinion one way or the other.

A single Raze is better than a single Dark, yes. However, Strago's magic menu is balanced around the use of Sage Stone for X-Magic. As is, X-Dark is Strago's best single target damage spell (before weaknesses and such).

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Just now, Nowea said:

Regarding Genji Armor, I don't have any strong opinion one way or the other.

A single Raze is better than a single Dark, yes. However, Strago's magic menu is balanced around the use of Sage Stone for X-Magic. As is, X-Dark is Strago's best single target damage spell (before weaknesses and such).

Ah,  forgot about that... Guess Sage Stone is in fanatics or gogo's dungeon, as I do not have it.

But yes, this makes dark more appealing. But still not exactly good - if Dark is only there for X-Magic, you could just as well give him something else that has at least some use on non-X-magic strago. Probably not one of hte other top-tier spells, as they are stronger than Dark, though. If Dark just had a different element, he'd already enjoy it much more. Any element but water would fly there really. Even Fire would be better, cause Raze can't deal with undeads.

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It's less that "Dark is only there for X-Magic" and more "His spell list assumes X-Magic". This is helped a bit by his Lores serving as his more powerful 'single cast' spells. If it was possible to have some spells that don't work with X-Magic (in a way that the player easily understands instead of just having spells grayed out or missing at random) then something like that would be feasible.

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2 minutes ago, Nowea said:

It's less that "Dark is only there for X-Magic" and more "His spell list assumes X-Magic". This is helped a bit by his Lores serving as his more powerful 'single cast' spells. If it was possible to have some spells that don't work with X-Magic (in a way that the player easily understands instead of just having spells grayed out or missing at random) then something like that would be feasible.

But shouldn't his spell list also compliment a non-X-Magic build? Most of his spells do(Except bio, usually). That his "ultimate" non-lore spell winds up close to useless without X-magic just feels really bad and isn't wholly necessary. Simplest solution would be to add a useful effect to it and/or change it into another element he doesn't already cover very well. I doubt this would make him super OP all of a sudden, albeit, it's still a bit of a buff.

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1 hour ago, Vaylen said:

First is: Genji armor is one of the best armors on nigh everyone that can equip(Which is close to everyone). Feels especially strange that someone like Shadow can equip it. Shouldn't there be another option? Especially cause its stats can feel so awkward on many characters, as many do not care for one stat or the other - yet it is still their best option. Feels like the game is missing an armor to accomodate for that. It is nice to make a choice as to which character gets which armor... It is less nice when the choice is always the same.

Secondly... The Dark spell seems kind of pointless. Only rarely will one use it over Raze. And it is gotten on Odin~ Making it kind of a "meh" pickup. Celes' Merton is similarily of little use usually, but Crusader is at least important for a build of hers. Odin's equip bonus is very nice at least, but you often want Zoneseek for the summon(imo).
I'd propose giving the Dark spell to some other characters(Setzer/Mog, maybe?) and giving Strago something with actual use for him. Could be anything, really... Maybe something stamina-scaling to make that more of a build option(Fittingly coming with Odin).

Regarding Genji it all depends of your builds like for instance with Celes if you build her as a mage Genji isn't that usefull on her as you might prefer equipment that increase magic, for Shadow I argue that Genji aren't the best option for him the thing with Shadow for me defensivly it's better to invest toward his Evasion as he has the best natural evasion out of all the character so equipment such as Dark Gears and Mirage Vest are better in my opinion it makes a good Evasive Tank with Cover Counter due to his high Evasion + Interceptor being able to block hits

As for the Dark spell as Nowea said X-Dark is actually really good but I do agree that Dark come maybe a little to late due to having to get Odin, but I think it is willingly a late game option.

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28 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

Regarding Genji it all depends of your builds like for instance with Celes if you build her as a mage Genji isn't that usefull on her as you might prefer equipment that increase magic, for Shadow I argue that Genji aren't the best option for him the thing with Shadow for me defensivly it's better to invest toward his Evasion as he has the best natural evasion out of all the character so equipment such as Dark Gears and Mirage Vest are better in my opinion it makes a good Evasive Tank with Cover Counter due to his high Evasion + Interceptor being able to block hits

As for the Dark spell as Nowea said X-Dark is actually really good but I do agree that Dark come maybe a little to late due to having to get Odin, but I think it is willingly a late game option.

High evasion is great. Actually taking a hit and surviving coupled with decently high evasion is preferred, I say. Also, stats: Genji Armor gives 7 vigor, which is huge on someone like Shadow. Of course, Genji armor is not ALWAYS the best. But way too often, it your best option, despite being suboptimal in one way or another. The huge boosts to stamina and vigor make it a strong armor on most of the cast - and that it can be worn by most of the cast too just makes it feel strange(Isn't it supposed to be heavy armor...?).
I'd rather have it a bit more limited in users, so it is not such a competitive piece of armor and/or create armors comparable in strength for evasion and/or stamina builds specifically.

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Each character's spell list was created to compliment their special skill, and in Strago's case his special skill is "more magic", so it ends up in an odd place. Like Nowea said, his offensive spell list is pretty sparse since Lore mostly fills that role and assumes the use of the Sage Stone in order to be competitive with Lore. The rest of his spells - like Shell/Reflect/Osmose - are perfectly serviceable without the Sage Stone.

I classify the Genji armor set as "medium" rather than heavy armor, which is why the list of users also include Locke and Shadow. It's a solid defense option for them, but it sacrifices evasion in turn - and these are two characters built around dodging attacks rather than taking a hit (well, Shadow at least. Locke is a different story.)

I'll answer any other questions you have, but it would be better if you just posted them in that initial thread you made instead of making new ones.

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14 minutes ago, BTB said:

Each character's spell list was created to compliment their special skill, and in Strago's case his special skill is "more magic", so it ends up in an odd place. Like Nowea said, his offensive spell list is pretty sparse since Lore mostly fills that role and assumes the use of the Sage Stone in order to be competitive with Lore. The rest of his spells - like Shell/Reflect/Osmose - are perfectly serviceable without the Sage Stone.

I classify the Genji armor set as "medium" rather than heavy armor, which is why the list of users also include Locke and Shadow. It's a solid defense option for them, but it sacrifices evasion in turn - and these are two characters built around dodging attacks rather than taking a hit (well, Shadow at least. Locke is a different story.)

I'll answer any other questions you have, but it would be better if you just posted them in that initial thread you made instead of making new ones.

Well, I will do that. Thought "new questions, new topic".

Genji armor does offer a high amount of bonus stats, though... In addition to decent raw defence. I believe it would be more beneficial to reduce the possible users and compensate by adding more specialized armors. Additionally, Genji armor is very strong for any stam user and vigor user, but those two do not mesh together as well as one would expect. I'd call for a shift of power there.

I see the point of Dark now, but... it still stands that it is a nigh useless spell for non X-Magic Strago.. and that just feels bad. Dumb reasoning, I know, but having something marginally useful would just feel a ton better.

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Spoiler

Dark is a fairly useful spell against significant parts of the final fight of the game. And most of the enemies in the Fanatics Tower, As they are human and weak to poison.

Maybe read the above once you've finished the game.

Not to mention the best use of Dark is as the proc on Punisher.

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Against a typical enemy, Dark is roughly equivalent to spamming Black Omen. The MP cost is roughly the same, but there are a few other factors. One is that Dark respects defense, so can be stronger (or occasionally weaker) depending on the target. It can also hit a weakness or a resistance. Black Omen is the "safer" of the two because of this, but Dark is frequently the more powerful.

(Of course, Black Omen is also MT, so it wins hands down as a sweeper.)

I try to avoid having too much specialized equipment because that begins to wear down at the possible different combinations of equipment setups in the endgame. For example, if everyone's equipment was completely specialized, then the best final setups would be a lot less interesting than if more or it was shared, or at least that's the philosophy I approached it with.

Also, stamina is useful for any character since it acts as a defensive stat. There's some debate as to *how* useful it is, but it's by no means a wasted stat. In fact, the cover/counter changes in 1.9 were implemented specifically because I wanted to see more meaningful synergy between vigor and stamina (specifically with regards to Phantom Celes).

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18 minutes ago, BTB said:

Against a typical enemy, Dark is roughly equivalent to spamming Black Omen. The MP cost is roughly the same, but there are a few other factors. One is that Dark respects defense, so can be stronger (or occasionally weaker) depending on the target. It can also hit a weakness or a resistance. Black Omen is the "safer" of the two because of this, but Dark is frequently the more powerful.

(Of course, Black Omen is also MT, so it wins hands down as a sweeper.)

I try to avoid having too much specialized equipment because that begins to wear down at the possible different combinations of equipment setups in the endgame. For example, if everyone's equipment was completely specialized, then the best final setups would be a lot less interesting than if more or it was shared, or at least that's the philosophy I approached it with.

Also, stamina is useful for any character since it acts as a defensive stat. There's some debate as to *how* useful it is, but it's by no means a wasted stat. In fact, the cover/counter changes in 1.9 were implemented specifically because I wanted to see more meaningful synergy between vigor and stamina (specifically with regards to Phantom Celes).

I dont compare dark to black omen, but to raze. They are very similar and, barring a few edge cases, raze is always better(Except X-Dark, of course). That's my problem with dark on Strago, as it is only useful as X-Strago and has next to no use in other cases.

Equipment should not be too specialized, yeah. While it feels nice to have stuff like snow muffler and radiant gown, it would be more interesting if there were options. That said, Genji Armor is too general. If something is generally very good and often times among the best, it becomes ubiquitous and frustrating. Having instead another bucket for ultimate, say, evasive gear(In different forms, limited) would create more choice, as it wouldn't need to compete vs the raw stats of Genji.

To put it short: I don't want to think "K, so, basically... 5 of my toons do best with Genji Gear". That sucks.

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Posted (edited)

One downside to the Genji is its low magic defense and lack of any special bonuses. Force Armor grants a nice boost to magic and significantly stronger mg.def, alongside Fire/Ice/Bolt resists. Minerva grants a nice mix of def & mg.def and immunity to said three elements. Snow Muffler grants very nice balanced defenses alongside Ice/Wind immunity and an HP+. For Locke and Shadow, Dark Gear has the vigor+ alongside speed+ and evasion+; Mirage Vest loses the vigor+ but grants auto-haste. For Shadow, there's also a hidden stealable armor that may or may not be good depending on your playstyle.

Genji is good, but I think it's only really a "definitive" equip for Edgar, Cyan, and Setzer.

As for Dark, I'll refrain from going to much into it (I'm...infamous sometimes for my opinions >_>). Suffice to say, I think that it's highly niche as a spell outside of a few specific instances thanks to Raze & Black Omen (or even the more niche Punisher Rod), even assuming the Sage Stone. It's not possible to balance Dark for non X-Magic builds so long as Raze exists, and Raze is just too useful of as spell for Strago throughout the WoR to axe it. Also, the Fire/Poison dual element is unique, something I'd rather not see disappear.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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I have a suggestion which may or not sound kind of crazy but here it is nonetheless: Dark could be a magic spell that deal physical damage instead of magic damage 

This would both make the spell more unique since target with a exceptional m.defense tend to be quite fragile against physical attacks and would also put the spell apart from Black Omen (Or if it's possible, make the spell power being calculated from stamina)

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Actually there is an ultimate evasion armor if that's what you're looking for, the Mirage Vest, but it's at the Colosseum so you have to give up some other powerful gear in order to get one.

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3 hours ago, ronlyn said:

I have a suggestion which may or not sound kind of crazy but here it is nonetheless: Dark could be a magic spell that deal physical damage instead of magic damage 

This would both make the spell more unique since target with a exceptional m.defense tend to be quite fragile against physical attacks and would also put the spell apart from Black Omen (Or if it's possible, make the spell power being calculated from stamina)

Being fair, X-Dark has its uses. Namely:

  • Hitting a Poison weakness hard. (Holy Dragon, Stooges, Wallchange, Ninjas and Maidens in Kefka's Tower
  • Hurting a foe with low mg.def (Asura, assuming you know which path to send Strago down; Ogre Nix random in Kefka's Tower)
  • Strago's highest damage option for counter-script foes (Kefka)

It has it's uses. It's just not a "general-purpose magical damage option" for Strago like you expect from such a late-game spell. 72 BPow is about the same as the elemental Level 2 spells or like Elf Fire and Plasma. Even with X-Magic and a high magic stat, that's just not enough damage outside of specific situations to warrant using over Black Omen, especially since X-Dark requires an otherwise rather mediocre relic that could instead be used for something better. (IIRC, it's about 3/4 as powerful as Cyan's Tempest)

Also, depending on playstyle or when you get it, you may never even see its niche.

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4 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

One downside to the Genji is its low magic defense and lack of any special bonuses. Force Armor grants a nice boost to magic and significantly stronger mg.def, alongside Fire/Ice/Bolt resists. Minerva grants a nice mix of def & mg.def and immunity to said three elements. Snow Muffler grants very nice balanced defenses alongside Ice/Wind immunity and an HP+. For Locke and Shadow, Dark Gear has the vigor+ alongside speed+ and evasion+; Mirage Vest loses the vigor+ but grants auto-haste. For Shadow, there's also a hidden stealable armor that may or may not be good depending on your playstyle.

I second this is basically what I was trying to say ^^, the ultimate armor for character will depend of your builds mostly and playstyle.

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6 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

One downside to the Genji is its low magic defense and lack of any special bonuses. Force Armor grants a nice boost to magic and significantly stronger mg.def, alongside Fire/Ice/Bolt resists. Minerva grants a nice mix of def & mg.def and immunity to said three elements. Snow Muffler grants very nice balanced defenses alongside Ice/Wind immunity and an HP+. For Locke and Shadow, Dark Gear has the vigor+ alongside speed+ and evasion+; Mirage Vest loses the vigor+ but grants auto-haste. For Shadow, there's also a hidden stealable armor that may or may not be good depending on your playstyle.

Genji is good, but I think it's only really a "definitive" equip for Edgar, Cyan, and Setzer.

As for Dark, I'll refrain from going to much into it (I'm...infamous sometimes for my opinions >_>). Suffice to say, I think that it's highly niche as a spell outside of a few specific instances thanks to Raze & Black Omen (or even the more niche Punisher Rod), even assuming the Sage Stone. It's not possible to balance Dark for non X-Magic builds so long as Raze exists, and Raze is just too useful of as spell for Strago throughout the WoR to axe it. Also, the Fire/Poison dual element is unique, something I'd rather not see disappear.

Snow Muffler doesn't compete with Genji gear, though. And for Shadow.... you mean lazy shell? Only hidden armor I could think of.
But to clarify: I am not saying Genji Gear is overpowered. Just that it is very often the best option. This is only aided by the fact, that most of the comparable/better gears are gotten very late or only via coliseum trading(Which, in turn, is highly dependant on what you actually can trade without compromising a build). And also... Dark Gear is very clearly in a low Tier than Genji in terms of sheer power. You lose only 10 eva for a whopping 30 defence. And in terms of stat, you gain 2 vigor and 7 Stamina for 5 speed. Surely, speed is the more useful stat(on most Dark Gear users). But at the same time, it is kinda very obsolete - Locke and Shadow, for example, usually have enough speed to not prioritize gearing for it and instead want higher defences, evasion and damage. And I'd say... if 10 eva wasn't worth 30 def, something's strange in the balancing of the stats.
Thinking about Genji Gear, it is the best armor for a TON of builds.  Namely, basically all builds that like Stamina and nearly all builds that enjoy Vigor. It even gets used on the light armor dudes simply cause of the superior defence+the sheer amount of bonus stats.

And I don't mind your infamous opinions, I guess I have sometimes rather... strong opinions myself. But I see you are kinda agreeing with me on Raze, so there's that. And honestly? I don't find X-Magic very appealing on Strago. X-Magic on Locke looks much more appealing to me, for example(Despite him lacking support spells).
 

2 hours ago, A Dummy said:

Actually there is an ultimate evasion armor if that's what you're looking for, the Mirage Vest, but it's at the Colosseum so you have to give up some other powerful gear in order to get one.

Yeah, but... it seems strange to me that I need to jump through hoops to get a good light armor, while heavy equipment is just scattered about everywhere. It feels kinda... dumb, I guess?

5 hours ago, ronlyn said:

I have a suggestion which may or not sound kind of crazy but here it is nonetheless: Dark could be a magic spell that deal physical damage instead of magic damage 

This would both make the spell more unique since target with a exceptional m.defense tend to be quite fragile against physical attacks and would also put the spell apart from Black Omen (Or if it's possible, make the spell power being calculated from stamina)

Making it physical wouldn't really do anything(Sides from X-Magic, but thats not the point). Omen is already a defence ignoring nuke, so there is still no point in using Dark like that.
Making it being a Stamina-based attack, though... that seems interesting. My Strago currently has a ton of stamina  - even though I put 0 points into it. Stam Strago would really be cool if he had some extra support.

It's annoying what a balance conondrum Dark is thanks to X-Magic... add to that, that X-Magic feels a tad lackluster anyway.

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Posted (edited)

Ease of obtaining Genji Armor is an interesting point, though I don't think it's too dramatic except in the case of the Mirage Vest and Minerva. Minerva is meant to be endgame; I think its supposed to be slightly op? The Mirage Vest especially is rather hard to obtain while not exactly being super amazing for those who can equip it. (Gau & Sabin want HP+, Locke & Shadow have enough speed, Shadow has HasteX anyways; though the mg.eva+ is very interesting). Assuming your doing things in the "normal order", you'll get a Snow Muffler and possibly at least one Force Armor shortly after you've "gotten both" Genjis. Wind Dragon's also not too bad to kill early, so that's another Force Armor.

Eh, iunno Vaylen. It seems not too difficult to have both Force Armors about the same time as both Genjis. For Mog, the Muffler should come around the same time to. I will, however, grant that the Mirage Vest is an utter pain to get with small reward, which means Locke & Shadow either take Genji, Dark Gear, or equip the Lazy Shell.

On another note, you're not the first person to note that only X-Locke feels particularly solid. That's how it's been for a long time now. X-Mog is sorta coming around as of 1.9, but he's not quite there yet. (Non-elemental Quake when?).

I'm not sold on stamina Dark. I'd like stamina to actually be a useful defensive stat, instead of just being a third attack stat (vigor and magic being the other two). Stamina's mediocre as a defensive stat right now outside of Cover and some heals / Chakra, but I'd still like to fix that problem, instead of completely giving up on stamina.

Tbf, the only alternative I have to suggest is to slightly raise Dark's power but significantly raise its MP cost. The other X-Mages are damage spikers who can't sustain their elemental barrage for too long, so why not move Dark in that direction as well? For the magical equivalent to Cyan, Strago's missing a real dps magic, so his best builds tend to be supporter builds with back-up aoe magic or elemental sniping. (Either that, or Punisher Black Belt Strago, but that's still kinda the same thing as well, just more MP efficient and with potential for crazy counterattack shenanigans). It'd help differentiate Dark from Raze and Black Omen, and Locke's X-Fire3 shows that there's room in BNW for absurd elemental damage striking a weakness.

 

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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25 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Ease of obtaining Genji Armor is an interesting point, though I don't think it's too dramatic except in the case of the Mirage Vest and Minerva. Minerva is meant to be endgame; I think its supposed to be slightly op? The Mirage Vest especially is rather hard to obtain while not exactly being super amazing for those who can equip it. (Gau & Sabin want HP+, Locke & Shadow have enough speed, Shadow has HasteX anyways; though the mg.eva+ is very interesting). Assuming your doing things in the "normal order", you'll get a Snow Muffler and possibly at least one Force Armor shortly after you've "gotten both" Genjis. Wind Dragon's also not too bad to kill early, so that's another Force Armor.

Eh, iunno Vaylen. It seems not too difficult to have both Force Armors about the same time as both Genjis. For Mog, the Muffler should come around the same time to. I will, however, grant that the Mirage Vest is an utter pain to get with small reward, which means Locke & Shadow either take Genji, Dark Gear, or equip the Lazy Shell.

On another note, you're not the first person to note that only X-Locke feels particularly solid. That's how it's been for a long time now. X-Mog is sorta coming around as of 1.9, but he's not quite there yet. (Non-elemental Quake when?).

I'm not sold on stamina Dark. I'd like stamina to actually be a useful defensive stat, instead of just being a third attack stat (vigor and magic being the other two). Stamina's mediocre as a defensive stat right now outside of Cover and some heals / Chakra, but I'd still like to fix that problem, instead of completely giving up on stamina.

Tbf, the only alternative I have to suggest is to slightly raise Dark's power but significantly raise its MP cost. The other X-Mages are damage spikers who can't sustain their elemental barrage for too long, so why not move Dark in that direction as well? For the magical equivalent to Cyan, Strago's missing a real dps magic, so his best builds tend to be supporter builds with back-up aoe magic or elemental sniping. (Either that, or Punisher Black Belt Strago, but that's still kinda the same thing as well, just more MP efficient and with potential for crazy counterattack shenanigans). It'd help differentiate Dark from Raze and Black Omen, and Locke's X-Fire3 shows that there's room in BNW for absurd elemental damage striking a weakness.

 

Is there even a mirage vest outside coliseum? Same question for Minerva, tbh.
Force Armor is much more specific than Genji Armor, making them compete rarely with eachother. And if they do, one often wants Genji over Force, cause of how good Stamina is for some characters/builds. Nigh every character actually has a build that really enjoys stamina... Also, it is easy to get more Genji Armor through Coliseum(Especially as Genji Helm isnt nearly as competitive as the Armor, due to all the good, specific headgear for most).

Dont get me wrong, force armors are still good and it is nice to make a difficult choice between force and genji... It is not as nice if I have to make the choice 4 times and have others, as Shadow, that don't even get the freedom of choice for a long time.

Yeah, it would be nice to have a defensive/supportive benefit on Stam Strago. I find his support set to be a tad wonky, too... Put up zoneseek+shield and that's basically it. Strong, sure, but quickly gotten over with. I just built him with some MP and full magic, dishing out great numbers due to absurdly high magic.

But what I am really asking for is to make Dark useful outside of X-Magic. Strago would enjoy it being a fire instead of poison type spell(undeads), a stronger ice option or basically anything he doesn't cover way too good already with his Lore.

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Posted (edited)

Refract is a solid support spell, as is Holy Wind, though the former means you're using physical glass cannons and the latter is a little niche.

Numerically, I don't think you can balance a magic both with and without X-Magic, especially for a magic gained so late. You can change Dark to another element, but what's the benefit? You're still just casting a level 2 magic at endgame foes. Also, we don't want every character having every element. (Looking at you, Mog).

There's a Minerva in Kefka's. Mirage Vest, otoh, is Colosseum only.

OK, for Genji, build wise:

  • For vig Terra, Minerva has elemental immunities and Dark Gear has +5 speed. Both important points over Genji. Especially for glass cannon set-ups (Morph), where you'll rely more on Image support for physical defense.
  • mag Terra wants Force Armor
  • stam Terra wants Genji, fair enough.
  • All manner of vig Lockes, iunno, I'm fine with Dark Gear. I find stacking evasion to be more effective than stacking p.def, provided the character has "enough" HP and p.def, which Locke does.
  • mag Locke wants Lazy Shell
  • Kirin Locke, yeah, wants Genji
  • vig Edgar wants Genji
  • mag Edgar wants Force
  • vig Celes and mag Celes are same as Terra, though Genji is a better argument on vig Celes b/c of raw HP for Cover (and for ???)
  • Cyan may very well use Force to defend against magic attacks, since his mg.def is so low (no shield). Genji is his offensive option. stam Cyan has enough bulk to just equip Genji anyways (that, and it yields a stronger Dragon and higher Cover%)
  • Shadow's equipping Genji, Dark, or Lazy, though unlike Locke, I don't trust Shadow to not die from a stray breeze when stacking evade, so Genji probably wins
  • mag Setzer probably wants Force Armor
  • stam Setzer "wants" Genji, unless he seriously needs Force Armor's mg.def
  • vig Mog wants Genji
  • mag Mog....>_>...probably uses any number of armors, depending on the exact build

The new vig / stam interaction with counterattacks is something I hadn't considered before (played too many games in previous versions). That does swing things a bit towards Genji for physical attackers, whereas before, I found few of them actually using Genji. Though I'm only counting 4 builds to whom Genji is set in stone (the two Omega users and the two Dragoons).

Do consider, though, that there's only two real endgame heavy armors: Genji and Force. And Force is clearing winning whenever magic power or magic defense are desired, the latter being especially important in some endgame battles.

I could see an argument for maybe lowering the stam+ on Genji and re-balancing and/or re-distributing Mirage Vest. (Not so sure on re-distributing Minerva). Otherwise, the only solution would be to create a new armor to create more build options endgame. Honestly, I think build variety in the late WoB / early WoR is more of a concern rather than that.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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Different element would at least make the spell.. useful. But yeah, not everyone needs everything. Dark just feels especially bad cause it is supposed to be your "ultimate" spell, together with Black Omen. X-Magic Strago still has use for Black Omen: Ignoring Def, AoE, Poison resistance. Non X-Magic Strago has absolutely no use for Dark except for very, very niche cases(Phoenix Cave).

Genji still pops up an awful lot as a desirable option, doesn't it? I'd propose rebalancing it slightly, maybe restricting it to heavy only and creating a new medium and/or light armor.
Also, just got a mirage vest and... man, Shadow is paper. Guess that's what he is meant to be, but I feel safer equiping Genji. Not to mention, 7 Vig is really strong on Shadow anyway. Think that's one of the things that makes Genji so ubiquitous: Usable on many, strong defensive stats that can pull up the low def characters and the sheer amount of stats... + those stats are widely useful, both on offence and defence... oftentimes even utility, due to all the Stam scalings scattered around.

And yeah, Genji is really nice for most counter-attackers. Just a strong stat combo for them.

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Mirage Vest VS Genji for Shadow is more of playstyle the speed bonus + Auto-Haste greatly increase Shadow's number of turn and so increase is potential DPS more than 7 Vig point and increase his potential with Throw or Item usage as he will act more often, that being said with Safe and Shell and a HP bonus from Hero Ring I found Shadow to not die to often that couple with the higher Evasion that Mirage Vest gives and end-game I was mostly wearing Mirage Vest end-game, I think it just a matter of playstyle wether you pick Mirage Vest or Genji but I honnestly found High Evasion way better than High Def for Shadow, and also Mirage Vest is better for Cover/Counter since he will die if he takes to many hit by covering his allies you want him to Evade rather than taking hits in that set up.

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  • mag Mog....>_>...probably uses any number of armors, depending on the exact build

 

Depend of how you use Mag Mog, as a Cover/Counter user with Rods then Yeah Genji is very good option for the Stamina and boost in Defense, if you use him in back row with Jump or use as a caster then i think Force Armor will be better

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Posted (edited)

Genji gear is the best stuff for tanky and vigor builds, but there's plenty of instances where you'd prefer something else.

If Terra or Celes are using apocylumina or other spell-swords then the Oath Veil is a better helmet, there's also the Circlet for if you want MP and the Minerva is better armor hands down. For a magic build you might also want to use the Light Robe or Force Armor over Genji. Also Force Armor is just better if you want magic defense/power over physical.

Genji is great for tanky Locke and Vigor Locke/Shadow, but I prefer the speed and evasion from Mirage Vest and either the Counter from Ninja Mask or the bonus HP and MP from Red Cap.

On Edgar its great unless you're running Siren Edgar, in which case the Dragon Helm or Stat Hat and the Force Armor are significantly better, and even on Vigor builds you'd want the Dragon Helm if he's jumping.

Setzer usually will prefer Force Armor unless you're doing his Stamina build and in that case you'll probably prefer the Skull Cap to the Genji Helm.

Then there's Mog, who vastly prefers Circlet and Force Armor if he's magic, and even for his Vigor build you'll probably want to go with Dragon Helm and Snow Muffler.

That just leaves Cyan and... yeah, Genji stuff is the best gear for the samurai hands down.

Edited by JohnFuklaw
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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Vaylen said:

Genji still pops up an awful lot as a desirable option, doesn't it? I'd propose rebalancing it slightly, maybe restricting it to heavy only and creating a new medium and/or light armor.

Restricting Genji to heavy only means that Shadow and Locke lose out on equipment options, without really changing how the other six users work. Might I counter-propose that Mirage Vest gives +3 or +5 vigor, perhaps with at least one Mirage Vest obtainable without the Colosseum? The former is more important I suspect, since it makes Mirage Vest strictly better than the Dark Gear, while reducing the argument for Genji down to Stamina and P.Def, instead of Vigor as well. The latter would be nice, but I'm not qualified to say if it's strictly necessary.

I agree, Dark's a bad ultimate magic.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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