Vaylen

Dark and Genji armor(suggestions)

39 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Mirage Vest VS Genji for Shadow is more of playstyle the speed bonus + Auto-Haste greatly increase Shadow's number of turn and so increase is potential DPS more than 7 Vig point and increase his potential with Throw or Item usage as he will act more often, that being said with Safe and Shell and a HP bonus from Hero Ring I found Shadow to not die to often that couple with the higher Evasion that Mirage Vest gives and end-game I was mostly wearing Mirage Vest end-game, I think it just a matter of playstyle wether you pick Mirage Vest or Genji but I honnestly found High Evasion way better than High Def for Shadow, and also Mirage Vest is better for Cover/Counter since he will die if he takes to many hit by covering his allies you want him to Evade rather than taking hits in that set up.

I'd argue that Auto-Haste is rather useless on a character with HasteX that always goes first ^^" and a speed bonus of 7 vs a vigor bonus of 7 shouldn't make much of a dps difference.
I find mirage vest a tad underwhelming as an "ultimate" armor. I do think, though, that I would take it over Genji if Genji wouldn't give 10 evasion.

2 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Restricting Genji to heavy only means that Shadow and Locke lose out on equipment options, without really changing how the other six users work. Might I counter-propose that Mirage Vest gives +3 or +5 vigor, perhaps with at least one Mirage Vest obtainable without the Colosseum? The former is more important I suspect, since it makes Mirage Vest strictly better than the Dark Gear, while reducing the argument for Genji down to Stamina and P.Def, instead of Vigor as well. The latter would be nice, but I'm not qualified to say if it's strictly necessary.

I agree, Dark's a bad ultimate magic.

Yeah, you are not wrong. It just feels strange to see Genji even as an option for Locke and Shadow. Mirage Vest adding some vigor would be really nice. Genji losing it's evade would also make mirage better by contrast. I'd think about changing Mirage's passive effect from auto-haste to something else. Auto-image kinda sound fun and fits the "mirage" theme. On Shadow, this wouldn't be that powerful even. On Locke probably, though..

3 hours ago, JohnFuklaw said:

If Terra or Celes are using apocylumina or other spell-swords then the Oath Veil is a better helmet, there's also the Circlet for if you want MP and the Minerva is better armor hands down. For a magic build you might also want to use the Light Robe or Force Armor over Genji. Also Force Armor is just better if you want magic defense/power over physical.

Genji is great for tanky Locke and Vigor Locke/Shadow, but I prefer the speed and evasion from Mirage Vest and either the Counter from Ninja Mask or the bonus HP and MP from Red Cap.

On Edgar its great unless you're running Siren Edgar, in which case the Dragon Helm or Stat Hat and the Force Armor are significantly better, and even on Vigor builds you'd want the Dragon Helm if he's jumping.

Setzer usually will prefer Force Armor unless you're doing his Stamina build and in that case you'll probably prefer the Skull Cap to the Genji Helm.

Then there's Mog, who vastly prefers Circlet and Force Armor if he's magic, and even for his Vigor build you'll probably want to go with Dragon Helm and Snow Muffler.

That just leaves Cyan and... yeah, Genji stuff is the best gear for the samurai hands down.

Mh, I am not talking about Genji-Helms at all. As mentioned somewhere: Genji helm is much less competitive, as they are so many rare helmets with strong effects(Oath Veil, Circlet, SKull Cap, Red Cap, Stat Hat, Dragon Helm). Much more variety there.
You often won't need a lot of m.def on the girls, due to their headgear especially.
Talked lots about shadow/locke further up. Simply put: Genji Gear does give very competitive stats for vigor/speed builds in terms of dps. And Genji allows them to actually take a hit before dying. Mirage Vest is just overall a bit lackluster for an "Ultimate" armor. It is good, but not on the same powerlevel as Genji, I feel.

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19 minutes ago, Vaylen said:

Yeah, you are not wrong. It just feels strange to see Genji even as an option for Locke and Shadow. Mirage Vest adding some vigor would be really nice. Genji losing it's evade would also make mirage better by contrast. I'd think about changing Mirage's passive effect from auto-haste to something else. Auto-image kinda sound fun and fits the "mirage" theme. On Shadow, this wouldn't be that powerful even. On Locke probably, though..

Something to consider is that the Mirage Vest is also supposed to be an endgame equipment for Sabin and Gau. For Gau, Locke, and Shadow, yeah, auto-haste is more of a nicety rather than a real selling point, though Locke likes it a little more than the other two. For Sabin, it's more interesting, though it has to compete with Royal Jacket's HP+, which is really, really nice in terms of keeping Sabin alive (also gives vig+, IIRC).

I'm not sure I'd want to lower Genji's evade. Remember that Genji must also be balanced for heavy armor front-row characters, to whom the extra evade isn't a bad thing.

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1 minute ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Something to consider is that the Mirage Vest is also supposed to be an endgame equipment for Sabin and Gau. For Gau, Locke, and Shadow, yeah, auto-haste is more of a nicety rather than a real selling point, though Locke likes it a little more than the other two. For Sabin, it's more interesting, though it has to compete with Royal Jacket's HP+, which is really, really nice in terms of keeping Sabin alive (also gives vig+, IIRC).

I'm not sure I'd want to lower Genji's evade. Remember that Genji must also be balanced for heavy armor front-row characters, to whom the extra evade isn't a bad thing.

Evade removal can be compensated rather easily, though. It would just make it a lot more unappealing to the dodge-characters.
Sabin and Gau have little use for mirage vest. Dragon Hide, Snow Muffler and Jacket are all outshining it, I'd say. Locke and Shadow both feel very susceptible to an untimely death without more defence. Shadow doesnt benefit from auto-haste, too. So that leaves only Locke, who often prefers force armor anyway and, when dual wielding, probably enjoys the defences of Genji more.
Maybe Mirage armor could just give hp/mp plus. 25% HP goes a long way on all of these characters as a good anti-one-hit option. Think I currently even use stat stick on shadow, just to boost his stats a little for survivability and rereise >.>

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1 hour ago, Vaylen said:

Evade removal can be compensated rather easily, though. It would just make it a lot more unappealing to the dodge-characters.
Sabin and Gau have little use for mirage vest. Dragon Hide, Snow Muffler and Jacket are all outshining it, I'd say. Locke and Shadow both feel very susceptible to an untimely death without more defence. Shadow doesnt benefit from auto-haste, too. So that leaves only Locke, who often prefers force armor anyway and, when dual wielding, probably enjoys the defences of Genji more.
Maybe Mirage armor could just give hp/mp plus. 25% HP goes a long way on all of these characters as a good anti-one-hit option. Think I currently even use stat stick on shadow, just to boost his stats a little for survivability and rereise >.>

Hmm, I find Locke the least susceptible to an untimely death from a physical. There may be a build difference here. I like stacking Phoenix ELs on my fighter Locke, ignoring Ifrit, alongside equipping the Genji Shield for auto-Safe. With that bulk and 100+ evade from everything he's equipping, I'm normally more concerned about his mg.def. Which is something the Mirage Vest would help out with with its +20 mg.eva. It's just a hard trade to make at the Colosseum to get one and I'm losing vigor doing so. For Locke, at least, the only recommendation I'd give for Mirage Vest would be +3 or +5 vigor. The extra vigor would also make it more desirable for all-in glass cannon Locke set-ups.

I'm not supportive of HP+ or MP+ on Vest. Sabin & Gau all ready have HP+ options and have no need of MP+. Locke has a personal HP/MP equipment in the Phoenix equip, Sage Stone, and Rogue Cloak anyways. Shadow's meant to be frail and has little need for an MP booster.

For Sabin, Royal Jacket's HP+ is really hard to beat, seeing as how Sabin's defense is in stacking lots and lots of HP. Jacket's also giving +20 p.evade, better p.def, Fire immunity, and +5 vigor. Mirage Vest's only advantage here is the +20 mg.eva and the speed...

Oh, WOW, Mirage Vest's defensive attributes are horrid. It's like the Chocobo Hide, just with an extra 10 in each evade instead of a couple of resistances. With defenses that low, I think I support giving Mirage Vest +7 vigor. Might give Gau and Shadow an actual reason to equip it.

Vigor+ aside, another option for Mirage Vest is to give it a quirky elemental immunity. While Gau won't care and I'm unsure how it'll affect Sabin, Locke & Shadow have little else in terms of magical bulk besides the Lazy Shell. Counter-argument is that the Vest is all ready giving +20 mg.eva and so said immunity might be over-buffing the Vest if it's also getting +vigor (which it should).

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20 evade AND magic evade is really good, especially the magic evade, especially on Shadow (he's got high natural magic evade, and +10% boosting esper on top of that).

If anything, I'd give a Magic boost (+5 or so) to the Mirage Vest.

Would benefit Shadow's scrolls, Gau's magic rages (they really start lagging behind by the endgame), Sabin's aoe blitzes (they're garbage for the "last" 3/4 of the game), and I guess Locke's heals/fire spells too.

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1 hour ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Hmm, I find Locke the least susceptible to an untimely death from a physical. There may be a build difference here. I like stacking Phoenix ELs on my fighter Locke, ignoring Ifrit, alongside equipping the Genji Shield for auto-Safe. With that bulk and 100+ evade from everything he's equipping, I'm normally more concerned about his mg.def. Which is something the Mirage Vest would help out with with its +20 mg.eva. It's just a hard trade to make at the Colosseum to get one and I'm losing vigor doing so. For Locke, at least, the only recommendation I'd give for Mirage Vest would be +3 or +5 vigor. The extra vigor would also make it more desirable for all-in glass cannon Locke set-ups.

I'm not supportive of HP+ or MP+ on Vest. Sabin & Gau all ready have HP+ options and have no need of MP+. Locke has a personal HP/MP equipment in the Phoenix equip, Sage Stone, and Rogue Cloak anyways. Shadow's meant to be frail and has little need for an MP booster.

For Sabin, Royal Jacket's HP+ is really hard to beat, seeing as how Sabin's defense is in stacking lots and lots of HP. Jacket's also giving +20 p.evade, better p.def, Fire immunity, and +5 vigor. Mirage Vest's only advantage here is the +20 mg.eva and the speed...

Oh, WOW, Mirage Vest's defensive attributes are horrid. It's like the Chocobo Hide, just with an extra 10 in each evade instead of a couple of resistances. With defenses that low, I think I support giving Mirage Vest +7 vigor. Might give Gau and Shadow an actual reason to equip it.

Vigor+ aside, another option for Mirage Vest is to give it a quirky elemental immunity. While Gau won't care and I'm unsure how it'll affect Sabin, Locke & Shadow have little else in terms of magical bulk besides the Lazy Shell. Counter-argument is that the Vest is all ready giving +20 mg.eva and so said immunity might be over-buffing the Vest if it's also getting +vigor (which it should).

Shadow really enjoys bonus MP for rerise spam(With his high speed, it really is a strong option on him). But that's just a small thing.
Mirage vests defences are really just not... endgame material. Add the lackluster boni it grants and it becomes really iffy. I'd like to see its defences boosted by 5 and granting +vigor. A change of any kind on its passive would simply be appreciated. I'd still like auto-image to be set, it just sounds so good and fits well. Would also allow the defences to be leaning more heavily towards m.def.

The reason I thought about +hp is that it simply is a strong effect. It would also mean it could compete better with jacket/muffler - as the +hp is such a good effect. That said, I generally think +HP is kind of a OP stat, as well as heavy HP espers... So there's some bias, I guess.

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16 hours ago, Vaylen said:

I'd argue that Auto-Haste is rather useless on a character with HasteX that always goes first ^^" and a speed bonus of 7 vs a vigor bonus of 7 shouldn't make much of a dps difference.
I find mirage vest a tad underwhelming as an "ultimate" armor. I do think, though, that I would take it over Genji if Genji wouldn't give 10 evasion.

And I say Auto-Haste prevents the need to rebuff if Shadow die (which can happen as Shadow is basically a glass-canon) and grant immunity to Slow.
And after some testing the 7 points in Vigor doesn't make that much difference in the damage dealt so it's not that big of a lost, the Evasion is better with Mirage Vest but admitadly not by a large amount same with Defense in favor of Genji difference in Damage Shadow receive isn't that high, Mirage Vest also gives Magic Evasion that Genji doesn't really, both are viable just depend of what you want.
That being said I can agree on the remove Evasion from Genji, I effectively think that Genji should be on a Tank/Heavy hitter character like Cyan or Edgar not on speedy characters like Locke or Shadow and so wonder why not give it a speed malus (like -5) to discourage using it on such characters.

 

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8 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

And I say Auto-Haste prevents the need to rebuff if Shadow die (which can happen as Shadow is basically a glass-canon) and grant immunity to Slow.
And after some testing the 7 points in Vigor doesn't make that much difference in the damage dealt so it's not that big of a lost, the Evasion is better with Mirage Vest but admitadly not by a large amount same with Defense in favor of Genji difference in Damage Shadow receive isn't that high, Mirage Vest also gives Magic Evasion that Genji doesn't really, both are viable just depend of what you want.
That being said I can agree on the remove Evasion from Genji, I effectively think that Genji should be on a Tank/Heavy hitter character like Cyan or Edgar not on speedy characters like Locke or Shadow and so wonder why not give it a speed malus (like -5) to discourage using it on such characters.

 

But the need to rebuff shadow is so easily fulfilled cause of his absurd base speed. He has no qualms about "wasting" a turn or two. Overall, I think the haste on it could really be something else that works better for the squishies - even just some raw def to make them less susceptible to death.

 

Minus speed is a real bad idea. Think about it like that: Who could stomach having less speed? Someone with 80 speed or someone with 30? Shadow wouldn't mind that much to give up some speed for strong defences. -5 spd just makes genji underpowered as hell.
Removing evasion would still be could. I couldn't justify picking it on Shadow like that. Could get a compensatory buff to m.def or def, for example. I'd also like to see a shift in the stats it gives: Instead of 7 vig/7 stam, go 5vig/9stam. This would require a dedicated vig or vig+spd armor to equalize options... although, nigh any heavy armor user really enjoys stam, even if it is just for cover/counter.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Vaylen said:

I'd also like to see a shift in the stats it gives: Instead of 7 vig/7 stam, go 5vig/9stam. This would require a dedicated vig or vig+spd armor to equalize options... although, nigh any heavy armor user really enjoys stam, even if it is just for cover/counter.

The range for stats on gear is -7 to +7, Don't have an argument one way or the other on the rest of this, but it's a current code limit.

Also, HasteX will eat Shadow's MP pool, so suddenly you're spending 2 turns to chug a tincture at times. And a shadow that dies even relatively frequently ends up losing a lot of time rebuffing. Lastly, Just because Shadow and Gau can reapply Haste easily via HasteX (despite it still not being optimal) there's 2 other people that can wear Mirage Vest.

20 Mblock is pretty significant. I would easily take Mirage Vest on a non physical attacking Shadow (e.g. support Shadow)

After repeated edits, You can build a Shadow with over +25% HP and MP, over 100 speed, full status immunity, and one evasion at 94 and the other at 104 (depending on esper equip). This makes his evasion to where he can only get his 19% by one attack type and 27% on the other (rounding up). Just some food for thought here.

Edited by Nowea
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-3 speed and no evasion on Genji brings it in line with the other heavy armors, but I argue is unnecessary. The other heavies have significantly more magic defense as well as various elemental resistances.

As far as I see  we all agree that Genji is fine for the armor users. It's hardly op on them. So changing both Genji and Mirage seems like overkill. 

Auto-Image is too much with the +20 evade methinks. Said character becomes a dodging beast in randoms, on top of the 100+ evade. I think auto-haste utility has been well argued.

Spoony, Sabin's magic blitzes need a lot more than just magic+ to be useful.

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6 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

-3 speed and no evasion on Genji brings it in line with the other heavy armors, but I argue is unnecessary. The other heavies have significantly more magic defense as well as various elemental resistances.

As far as I see  we all agree that Genji is fine for the armor users. It's hardly op on them. So changing both Genji and Mirage seems like overkill. 

Auto-Image is too much with the +20 evade methinks. Said character becomes a dodging beast in randoms, on top of the 100+ evade. I think auto-haste utility has been well argued.

Spoony, Sabin's magic blitzes need a lot more than just magic+ to be useful.

Argument is not Genji being OP, but ubiquitous. It is not good design that it pops up as an option all the time - and nigh all builds enjoy either the 7 stamina or 7 vigor really much. The option often feels like "You could take the cool specialized armor... Or you just take a ton of stats. That works too.". Genji just doesn't ever feel as suboptimal as it should feel.

I see the utility in auto-haste a bit more. And yeah, Auto-Image is really strong - it just sounds nice on paper.
 

10 hours ago, Nowea said:

Also, HasteX will eat Shadow's MP pool, so suddenly you're spending 2 turns to chug a tincture at times. And a shadow that dies even relatively frequently ends up losing a lot of time rebuffing. Lastly, Just because Shadow and Gau can reapply Haste easily via HasteX (despite it still not being optimal) there's 2 other people that can wear Mirage Vest.

After repeated edits, You can build a Shadow with over +25% HP and MP, over 100 speed, full status immunity, and one evasion at 94 and the other at 104 (depending on esper equip). This makes his evasion to where he can only get his 19% by one attack type and 27% on the other (rounding up). Just some food for thought here.

Gau and Sabin are not really taking Mirage Vest ever(Jacket/Muffler). Leaves only Locke and Shadow - and Locke can get away with less dodge anyway due to HP Esper. Only leaves Shadow and, while I see the utiliity of auto-haste, it isn't the strongest of effects on him still. And it feels strange if the, in theory, best user has the least use for the passive. I'd rather pump the power budget of the passive into defences/+health. A small +health really helps out Shadow's survivability(Say, +12.5%), but doesn't bring it over the top. He just tends to survive attacks more often with a sliver of health. An mp boost similary small is also appreciated, just to make his support set a little easier to use.
Sadly, such an effect would still not make Mirage Vest compete with Muffler/Jacket at all, while Locke doesn't really care and would prefer auto-haste.

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Posted (edited)

Honestly, I'm not seeing the ubiquity of Genji that you see. I've often tried to avoid Genji because I view other endgame armor as superior. The lack of magic defense and elemental resistances / immunities hurts. Its bad enough that even for people like vig Cyan, I'd consider taking the Force Armor over Genji. Course, some of that is that I tend to abuse Image tactics lategame, so I value magic defense quite highly.

Also, again, for heavy armor characters, endgame armors are just Genji and Force. Crystal, if you want to be cute. So unless you want to argue for Light Robe, Crystal Armor, Dark Gear, etc, as being endgame armors, I find it hard to wrap my head around Genji being ubiquitous when, for most users, there's little choice to begin with. I can see arguments for a buffed Mirage (+vigor), a more easily obtained Mirage, perhaps an earlier Minerva, so as to create more diversity.

Not buying any changes to Genji itself though. Not when it has clearly defined and meaningful weaknesses, and not when alternative options exist and, if found wanting, have clearly defined buffs that would make them more appealing over Genji.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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2 minutes ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Honestly, I'm not seeing the ubiquity of Genji that you see. I've often tried to avoid Genji because I view other endgame armor as superior. The lack of magic defense and elemental resistances / immunities hurts. Its bad enough that even for people like vig Cyan, I'd consider taking the Force Armor over Genji. Course, some of that is that I tend to abuse Image tactics lategame, so I value magic defense quite highly.

Also, again, for heavy armor characters, endgame armors are just Genji and Force. Crystal, if you want to be cute. So unless you want to argue for Light Robe, Crystal Armor, Dark Gear, etc, as being endgame armors, I find it hard to wrap my head around Genji being ubiquitous when, for most users, there's little choice to begin with. I can see arguments for a buffed Mirage (+vigor), a more easily obtained Mirage, perhaps an earlier Minerva, so as to create more diversity.

Not buying any changes to Genji itself though. Not when it has clearly defined and meaningful weaknesses, and not when alternative options exist and, if found wanting, have clearly defined buffs that would make them more appealing over Genji.

You are not wrong. A lot of thhe ubiquity is in terms of Genji including locke/shadow as its users and some armors gotten very late(Minerva, Mirage). Mirage Vest being not the best thing hurts this a little more, too. Swapping some power around and giving access to a few armors a little earlier would certainly help.

So~ The ubiquity vanishes by the end, I can agree on that. At any point before, though, too many people want Genji.

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8 hours ago, Vaylen said:

You are not wrong. A lot of thhe ubiquity is in terms of Genji including locke/shadow as its users and some armors gotten very late(Minerva, Mirage). Mirage Vest being not the best thing hurts this a little more, too. Swapping some power around and giving access to a few armors a little earlier would certainly help.

So~ The ubiquity vanishes by the end, I can agree on that. At any point before, though, too many people want Genji.

I can agree.

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