Barnacle_Ed

Character/Job Party Recommendations

518 posts in this topic

55 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

he doesn't guard, he only has a guard pose - as reaction to reaching the aggro threshold.
once again - where other bosses answer with a spell when they get hit enough, Dolan just takes a moment to pose which does nothing but give you a bit more time to cancel his gimmick.

No the one you talk about is the fake guard which he does when you hit his Revenge Value, but he does have a real guard, he use the Real Guard directly after using Energy Ball in the third part of his pattern, and you can't imagine how that can be frustrating when he does it and you have a bad RNG, your hit doesn't connect and you don't have enough Tech Point to cancel the Energy Ball before he put himself in guard, cause as soon as he goes out of his guard he cast Spiral Moon in other words if you don't have enough Tech Point before he put himself in the Guard Stance you are pretty much dead.

Well exemple are better than talk, so here is my old video of Dolan :

https://youtu.be/Mkk51MeBbXw?list=PLu3lFfLxm77agUXNBzlLxMh5tpq2JTJ6y

The part of his pattern I'm talking about start at 6:21 you can see he uses Spiral Moon, then at 6:44 he uses Energy Ball and directly put himself in guard and this is a true gard you can see none of my hit connect, and it has the sound effect indicating he is defending, his Defense effect last even a short while after his sprite is no longuer in guard stance, then after the guard he almost directly cast Spiral Moon. 

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

did you notice any improvement with him in the current version compared to earlier versions?

I honnestly didn't notice any difference, still the good old Dolan, still can randomly die cause the game refuses to load your LV2/3 tech sometime -_- . Was he suppose to have something different ?

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5 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

I honnestly didn't notice any difference, still the good old Dolan, still can randomly die cause the game refuses to load your LV2/3 tech sometime -_- . Was he suppose to have something different ?

one part of the AI was changed from
energy ball - body change - wait - spiral moon
to
energy ball - wait - wait - spiral moon

6 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

No the one you talk about is the fake guard which he does when you hit his Revenge Value, but he does have a real guard, he use the Real Guard directly after using Energy Ball in the third part of his pattern

oh, that one... never mind then >.>

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I tried the Hawk/Angela/Carlie team up to the God Beasts and decided I wasn't a fan. Having three casters clogs up the action and leaves you vulnerable; until everyone can cast quickly, it forces you to leave a character open, limiting his/her potential as a caster and defeating the purpose. Also, the lack of a shield to protect your casters made some parts of the game much more difficult than I thought it would. It was worth a shot, but for now I'd like to try something more balanced.

So, I've decided to go with Duran/Angela/Carlie instead. I want to keep the concept of a magic-focus team, and Duran (especially dark Duran) seems like a good compromise between the physical damage of Hawk and the defensive tactics of Lise. I would love to run Duelist here; his tech damage should be able to compete with anything Hawk can put out.

So far I'm thinking:

1) Duelist, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman

For random enemies, Duelist will distract with a shield while charging his level 2/3 techs, Grand Divina will bomb and heal, and Evil Shaman will debuff and bomb. Angela and Carlie can both help Duran with Transshape to limit his melee damage and Sleep Flower (I think this should work nicely with reflect armor and Dragon Shield/Wind God Bracelet), while Duran can help Angela and Carlie with Leaf Saber. Duelist's final tech should be great with a shield, due to the proximity damage. For bosses, I'll need Sahagin's Scales (and to a lesser extent, Drake's Scales). Evil Shaman might be interesting to spec as a battle mage, sacrificing intelligence for strength, and just rely on Leaf Saber or Tree Spirit Rings to keep her MP up; this would let her contribute more in fights against bosses with maxed out magical defense.

2) Paladin, Rune Master, Necromancer

What a beautiful balance of spells: six sabers provided across three characters, Heal Light and Tinkle Rain provided across two characters, all debuffs in one spell, and the two major defensive buffs. No repeats! I lose physical damage giving up Duelist, but gain some back with Necromancer's Black Rain. Paladin loses some healing power to Grand Divina, but the heal buff from Magic Shield might more than make up for that. I would also get Heal Light and Protect Up after the first class change. I'm not quite sure how to spec Paladin here: it seems he should need intelligence for his cast speed and his final weapon, but he'll need to keep his strength and agility up so he can provide physical damage when necessary; maybe a balanced growth with more into strength and less into luck would be best.

Feel free to offer comments or suggestions!

Edited by rpschamp

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This one could work to :

-Paladin, Arch Mage, Sage : Sage and Paladin cover Mind Up and Protect Up, Paladin also has Magic Shield to strengthen Carlie's Heal Light, they are both great healer having 2 Healer can actually be usefull in some situation, or you are free to play one or the other more offensively, Paladin can do pretty good physical damage and FST LV3 (which Arch Mage can help with Aura Wave) or serious AoE Neural damage with Turn Undead and he is a really good tank, Sage can assist Arch Mage for more magical damage, also this team get the 5 out 6 main Sabers save for Dark Saber and Arch Mage get Anti Magic, Power and Mind Down and powerfull magic damage. 

Continuing on Lord, Ninja Master and Sage I have actually a Hard Time to use Ninja Master's final weapon effectivly (I think I should invest more in PIE to reduce the cast time more) really think letting the AI use LV1 Tech (while maining Lord to open the counter window when I have the LV2/3 tech ready) is suprisingly effective at landing counter, as such I equip Hawk with the weapon that increase counter damage, for Lightgazer having 2 healers is actually really effective in this fight Lord and Sage can keep the HP up the only dangerous thing in this fight is the Geyseblast + Prisoner combo at the beginning which really hits hard other than this combo the fight is easy, landing counter is pretty easy with Hawk and with the weapon + Def Down + Fireblaze + Diamond Saber + Gnome Day man does he bring the pain xD 

Edited by Nesouk

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On 2/6/2020 at 10:27 AM, rpschamp said:

So, I've decided to go with Duran/Angela/Carlie instead. I want to keep the concept of a magic-focus team, and Duran (especially dark Duran) seems like a good compromise between the physical damage of Hawk and the defensive tactics of Lise. I would love to run Duelist here; his tech damage should be able to compete with anything Hawk can put out.

So far I'm thinking:

1) Duelist, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman

Really not a fan of Grand Divina in this party. Honestly idk if having Angela in a Duelist party makes a lot of sense in the first place...maybe an argument could be made for Archmage as a debuffer but I'd honestly rather have someone that can Protect Down instead. I'd suggest replacing the Divina with Warrior Monk for Mind Up, Power Up, Speed Down, and a stronger Heal Light. Alternatively you could make Carlie a Bishop (Def Up, Magic Shield, and sabers are basically all the buffs you should need for Duelist honestly) and dark Hawk or Lise as a debuffer.

Quote

2) Paladin, Rune Master, Necromancer

This is better than the party above. Necromancer's summons have elemental properties - except for Great Demon - so the sabers from Rune Master should let Carlie put out some decent damage after she casts Black Curse. Still, no Mind Up to help the casters deal even more damage kind of sucks...you could always farm up a bunch of Sahagin's Scales for bosses since Rune Master wipes crowds with ease I guess. Or consider making Angela a Magus instead, since she can Mind Up herself and you'll still have Saint Saber.

EDIT: Thinking about it a little more, Magus in this party seems really solid. She can Power Up Paladin's physical attacks, Lunatic bosses, and keep up her own MP with Poison Bubble while hurling out loads of strong damage spells. This does mean no sabers for Necromancer's summons...but really Carlie's primary use here is for Black Curse, Tinkle Rain, and applying the Curse debuff anyways!

21 hours ago, Nesouk said:

This one could work to :

-Paladin, Arch Mage, Sage : Sage and Paladin cover Mind Up and Protect Up, Paladin also has Magic Shield to strengthen Carlie's Heal Light, they are both great healer having 2 Healer can actually be usefull in some situation, or you are free to play one or the other more offensively, Paladin can do pretty good physical damage and FST LV3 (which Arch Mage can help with Aura Wave) or serious AoE Neural damage with Turn Undead and he is a really good tank, Sage can assist Arch Mage for more magical damage, also this team get the 5 out 6 main Sabers save for Dark Saber and Arch Mage get Anti Magic, Power and Mind Down and powerfull magic damage. 

I do like double-healer parties tbh; it adds an extra safety blanket in the event that things go horribly wrong or if you're bad at this game (like me!) - I did a Lord, Arch Mage, Warrior Monk playthrough fairly recently and it was smooth sailing through basically the whole game. Sage + Arch Mage is a good combo with a lot going for it. I still have to try out Paladin in this rom hack but his final weapon looks great, especially when the ladies in this party also have strong MT spells. If I wasn't already set on my next party I'd consider trying this one.

Edited by Barnacle_Ed

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3 hours ago, Barnacle_Ed said:

Really not a fan of Grand Divina in this party. Honestly idk if having Angela in a Duelist party makes a lot of sense in the first place...maybe an argument could be made for Archmage as a debuffer but I'd honestly rather have someone that can Protect Down instead. I'd suggest replacing the Divina with Warrior Monk for Mind Up, Power Up, Speed Down, and a stronger Heal Light. Alternatively you could make Carlie a Bishop (Def Up, Magic Shield, and sabers are basically all the buffs you should need for Duelist honestly) and dark Hawk or Lise as a debuffer.

I think Gran Divina in Duelist, Gran Divina, Evil Shaman team is mainly for Gran Divina being able to heal, and once you get her Final Weapon she can replace Duelist to buff with Sabers freeing Duelist from this duty (freeing an accessory slot cause Duelist need Whitelight Ring to make Saber MT) allowing to focus on physical damage, Aura Wave and Anti Magic if needed so IMO Gran Divina isn't a bad choice here.

IMO Angela can fit well with Duelist :
-Arch Mage : Give Aura Wave allowing to free Duelist from having to cast it and get boosted by Duelist's Saber (on top of her Final Weapon increasing the damage even further)
-Rune Master : Free Duelist from Sabers duty and can cripple the ennemies for Duelist (Silence preventing ennemies to counter Duelist's LV3, Snowman increasing the damage of the next incoming hits), IMO Rune Master is Angela most self-substain class.
-Magus : Give Power Up to Duelist to increase his damage even further, Lunatic to shorten the fight, Deathspell is still an option and good elemental damage overall, and potentially the best nuker with her Final Weapon.

Duelist honnestly I feel can easily fit in a team I mean he is almost self-sustain with Sabers and Aura Wave with Anti Magic for the ennemies that resist/immune to physical damage, he only lack Power Up and Protect Down to maximize is damage, I'm really considering pairing him with Nightblade could be fun with Both being LV3 Tech user and Hawk being a good user of Fireblaze and counter xD

 

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Thank you guys for your input and suggestions. I do love Archmage/Sage; I've run these two together in two groups so far, one with Dragon Master and one with Rogue. They wreak absolute havoc casting level 2 MT spells back to back and cover many of the essential buffs/debuffs and sabers pretty nicely.

I decided to limit my options here strictly to Duran/Angela/Carlie. As with Archmage/Sage, for a magical focus team, there is really no replacement for Angela/Carlie casting back to back through the early, mid, and late game. But who to take for a third? Duran and Lise both have shields, which make this team vastly easier to use, both for random enemies and for bosses like Bill/Ben, Lugar, and Machine Golem Redux that you need to keep away from your casters. Lise's focus is on stat buffs though, rather than abilities, which are more difficult or just not possible to replace. For example, there is just no way for Lise to achieve the physical power of a Duelist with his final weapon. Duelist doesn't get the stat buff/debuffs, but other teammates can cast them, or they can be bought. I've tried several Lise/Angela/Carlie teams and loved them, but I often find myself wanting the option to get at more physical damage when I need it. Hence my idea to give Duran a shot.

To think about what groups might be interesting to try, I tried to simplify my options. Since the main point of this group is spell power through Angela and Carlie, I thought about the role Duran could play beyond shield-bearing tank/distractor and came up with two cases: 1) Duran goes light so he can focus on recovery/defense and leave Angela and Carlie to focus on spell power, and 2) Duran goes dark so he can contribute a ton of that missing physical damage.

1) Light Duran - With Duran casting Heal Light and Protect Up, there are more options here. Paladin/Necromancer and Archmage/Sage are great combinations to start with. Paladin/Necromancer could work well with Rune Master or Magus; with Rune Master, you'll be missing Mind Up and Power Up (though Magic Shield should be sufficient for Duran), and with Magus, you'll be missing Earth/Air/Water/Fire sabers. I find the scales easier to replace than the sabers, plus the Rune Master gets a bunch of nice status effects (most importantly, Petrify), so I would go for Rune Master. Now, compared to Rune Master/Necromancer, Archmage/Sage would recover the missing Mind Up as well as Aura Wave, Leaf Saber, Life Booster, Gigas Flail, and a second healer, but miss out on Black Curse, level 3 status spells, and a second strong elemental caster. I see Archmage/Sage as the more defensive option and Rune Master/Necromancer as the more offensive. But I would probably take Lord here instead of Paladin for the Speed Up/Down and final weapon which should help against bosses with maxed out magical defense, since Archmage already covers Antimagic.

2) Dark Duran - This is honestly a tougher team to put together since if I want Heal Light, I need either Angela to go Grand Divina or Carlie to go light. Since light Carlie uses up her spell options with the same sabers as dark Duran, Grand Divina seems like the better option, leaving Carlie to go dark so both Angela and Carlie have access to damage spells in most of the elements. The point of this group would be to have Duelist control the field with a shield and throw techs while Angela and Carlie sit back casting. Duelist works wonders with a shield and proximity damage, and Grand Divina has a two spells that work nicely with this: 1) Transshape to protect him from melee damage, and 2) Sleep Flower, which, cast on Duran wearing reflect armor and Dragon Shield, should cause any enemy that attacks him to fall asleep. Since Duelist and Grand Divina contribute very little in terms of stat buff/debuffs, though, Evil Shaman seems like Carlie's best option to pick up MT Power Down, MT Mind Down, and Protect Up, three of the four most essential. The major missing skill here is Mind Up, so again I'd have to go with Sahagin's Scales for boss fights. Evil Shaman's MT Power and Mind Down should be all you need in terms of buffs/debuffs for random battles, and for bosses, she can purchase Bottles of Ashes, which cast Black Curse, so I can pump up my Duelist when I need the physical damage. The only Angela/Carlie classes that provide Mind Up are Magus and Sage; Magus would force me to choose light Carlie and miss out on the debuffs and spell damage, while Sage would leave me without Protect Up and force me to double up on five saber spells. Actually, I could see an argument for Archmage/Sage here; I did a calculation for both elemental weakness and non-weakness situations and Archmage/Sage should contribute ~10% more spell damage on average. They would miss the shield spells Transshape and Sleep Flower though, as well as Bottles of Ashes. Sage has Life Booster and Gigas Flail, so I can see that team having some advantages. But I think Archmage/Sage would work better with Lord or Paladin anyways.

So, between:

1) Paladin, Rune Master, Necromancer

2) Lord, Archmage, Sage

3) Duelist, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman

Team 2) would definitely be the most straightforward with a second healer and easy offensive/defensive options, but would not have access to a purchasable Protect Down for those bosses where you need to rely on physical damage. Team 1) would give you more diverse elemental damage and status effects, but require you to keep a stock of Sahagin's Scales for boss fights. Team 3) has some unique advantages for random enemies with shield spells and MT stat downs, and should be able to scale up damage for boss fights with Sahagin's Scales and purchasable Bottles of Ashes (a few extra items for boss fights should not be much of a burden, especially by the end game when you have unused money lying around). This team should be strongest in physical damage per time and at least competitive in magical damage per time (Grand Divina can pump out a lot of damage when she needs to with her instant level 1 spells). Given that Duelist should be the strongest shield runner with his final weapon, I would like a way to get him to work on a magical focus team that can benefit most from a shield user. Getting the buffs/debuffs to work out, though, is admittedly a struggle.

Edited by rpschamp

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27 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

I think Gran Divina in Duelist, Gran Divina, Evil Shaman team is mainly for Gran Divina being able to heal, and once you get her Final Weapon she can replace Duelist to buff with Sabers freeing Duelist from this duty (freeing an accessory slot cause Duelist need Whitelight Ring to make Saber MT) allowing to focus on physical damage, Aura Wave and Anti Magic if needed so IMO Gran Divina isn't a bad choice here.

IMO Angela can fit well with Duelist :
-Arch Mage : Give Aura Wave allowing to free Duelist from having to cast it and get boosted by Duelist's Saber (on top of her Final Weapon increasing the damage even further)
-Rune Master : Free Duelist from Sabers duty and can cripple the ennemies for Duelist (Silence preventing ennemies to counter Duelist's LV3, Snowman increasing the damage of the next incoming hits), IMO Rune Master is Angela most self-substain class.
-Magus : Give Power Up to Duelist to increase his damage even further, Lunatic to shorten the fight, Deathspell is still an option and good elemental damage overall, and potentially the best nuker with her Final Weapon.

Duelist honnestly I feel can easily fit in a team I mean he is almost self-sustain with Sabers and Aura Wave with Anti Magic for the ennemies that resist/immune to physical damage, he only lack Power Up and Protect Down to maximize is damage, I'm really considering pairing him with Nightblade could be fun with Both being LV3 Tech user and Hawk being a good user of Fireblaze and counter xD

I forgot to make the point about Grand Divina's final weapon, so thank you, Nesouk. Also, it was your posts about running Duelist on one of your previous teams that got me thinking about what he might be capable of; because Grand Divina and Evil Shaman get Transshape and Sleep Flower, I think they could be awesome teammates. (I'm assuming this Sleep Flower self-cast/immunity/reflect thing works, but I see no reason why it shoudn't).

If I could, I might try Duelist, Evil Shaman, and Sage, to get that missing Mind Up and a stronger healer with a passive heal option. Grand Divina gets better damage spells and elemental diversity than Evil Shaman, though, so she still has a lot to contribute. Duran and two Carlies would be quite a ridiculous team, but until Praetarius feels like working that weirdness out, I guess we're stuck with only one.

Edited by rpschamp

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22 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I decided to limit my options here strictly to Duran/Angela/Carlie. As with Archmage/Sage, for a magical focus team, there is really no replacement for Angela/Carlie casting back to back through the early, mid, and late game. But who to take for a third? Duran and Lise both have shields, which make this team vastly easier to use, both for random enemies and for bosses like Bill/Ben, Lugar, and Machine Golem Redux that you need to keep away from your casters. Lise's focus is on stat buffs though, rather than abilities, which are more difficult or just not possible to replace. For example, there is just no way for Lise to achieve the physical power of a Duelist with his final weapon. Duelist doesn't get the stat buff/debuffs, but other teammates can cast them, or they can be bought. I've tried several Lise/Angela/Carlie teams and loved them, but I often find myself wanting the option to get at more physical damage when I need it. Hence my idea to give Duran a shot.

Well Lise is more meant to be a jack of all trick, so definitly when you are looking for physical damage Dark Duran is the best pick of the 2, having all buffs on one party member is convenient tough, and while they are buyable, deep down it's easier to just have them directly than having to do extra grind for them even if the later is definitly possible.

By the way we are talking about Duelist but I think Swordmaster would fit even better in a Magical Oriented team, as he get absolutly all the Sabers and the 4 main one are naturally MT, if he can't get Duelist's raw power his LV3 is actually still pretty strong plus let's not forget that Speed Up also reduce the cast time, so this can be quite a good buff for spellcaster, Swordmaster, Arch Mage, Sage could work very well.

29 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

If I could, I might try Duelist, Evil Shaman, and Sage, to get that missing Mind Up and a stronger healer with a passive heal option. Grand Divina gets better damage spells and elemental diversity than Evil Shaman though, so she still has a lot to contribute. Duran and two Carlies would be quite a ridiculous team, but until Praetarius feels like working that weirdness out, I guess we're stuck with only one.

HAHAHA if we could pick a character twice things would be funny ^^

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1 hour ago, rpschamp said:

If I could, I might try Duelist, Evil Shaman, and Sage, to get that missing Mind Up and a stronger healer with a passive heal option. Grand Divina gets better damage spells and elemental diversity than Evil Shaman, though, so she still has a lot to contribute. Duran and two Carlies would be quite a ridiculous team, but until Praetarius feels like working that weirdness out, I guess we're stuck with only one.

I suspect that the event system wouldn't like that very much.

Any takers for 3x Kevin in that scenario? :D

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1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

I think Gran Divina in Duelist, Gran Divina, Evil Shaman team is mainly for Gran Divina being able to heal, and once you get her Final Weapon she can replace Duelist to buff with Sabers freeing Duelist from this duty (freeing an accessory slot cause Duelist need Whitelight Ring to make Saber MT) allowing to focus on physical damage, Aura Wave and Anti Magic if needed so IMO Gran Divina isn't a bad choice here.

IMO Angela can fit well with Duelist :
-Arch Mage : Give Aura Wave allowing to free Duelist from having to cast it and get boosted by Duelist's Saber (on top of her Final Weapon increasing the damage even further)
-Rune Master : Free Duelist from Sabers duty and can cripple the ennemies for Duelist (Silence preventing ennemies to counter Duelist's LV3, Snowman increasing the damage of the next incoming hits), IMO Rune Master is Angela most self-substain class.
-Magus : Give Power Up to Duelist to increase his damage even further, Lunatic to shorten the fight, Deathspell is still an option and good elemental damage overall, and potentially the best nuker with her Final Weapon.

Now, while I agree that Duelist is pretty self-sufficient, I still have to stick to my earlier point that it's tough to justify any Angela in a party with him over someone else. Unless, of course, you want a challenge.

Grand Divina: Yeah she gets HL, TR, speed up, decent casting of all LV1 damage spells, and eventually all sabers...but honestly Bishop does nearly all of the same things better and earlier. Divina has the edge in damage spells, sure, but Bishop still has Saint Beam and you can always make up for this with your final party member.

Rune Master: Again, Bishop does sabers better. I will agree that MT'ing silence or snowman is outstanding and that this class is pretty great - I'm getting some great mileage from her in my current team - but her complete lack of stat magic would probably make for a tough playthrough (or require a LOT of farming to compensate for)

Magus: Magus + Duelist is definitely a ballsy all-out damage team. Whatever healer you pick for the group will certainly have their hands full :D I feel like this party would also struggle in the stat magic department, even with her Power Up.

 

Arch Mage, as I said earlier, I could at least see an argument for. Aura Wave and Anti Magic means Duelist doesn't have to waste his time casting them anymore. Useful stat downs for boss fights. Strong damage spells that, as you said, all benefit really from the Duelist's sabers - especially with her final weapon. However, I must wonder if Swordmaster would be a better partner for the Arch Mage in general!

51 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

Well Lise is more meant to be a jack of all trick, so definitly when you are looking for physical damage Dark Duran is the best pick of the 2, having all buffs on one party member is convenient tough, and while they are buyable, deep down it's easier to just have them directly than having to do extra grind for them even if the later is definitly possible.

By the way we are talking about Duelist but I think Swordmaster would fit even better in a Magical Oriented team, as he get absolutly all the Sabers and the 4 main one are naturally MT, if he can't get Duelist's raw power his LV3 is actually still pretty strong plus let's not forget that Speed Up also reduce the cast time, so this can be quite a good buff for spellcaster, Swordmaster, Arch Mage, Sage could work very well.

I fully agree with both of these points.

Lise is a strong and flexible character that, to me, is meant more as a "force multiplier" that makes a good party even better rather than necessarily hard-carrying the party by herself. She's the glue that can fill any cracks you might have in terms of stat magic or healing or Anti Magic in a team since she can spec into any of of these as needed. It's pretty tough for me to imagine a group she would seem out-of-place in.

I've actually toyed with the idea of doing a Swordmaster, Arch Mage, Vanadise run eventually. Vanadise's final weapon means that her Freya summon can do elemental damage when she gets the saber buff. Arch Mage, as discussed above, makes great use of sabers for her damage spells. Though I'm not a fan of Swordmaster's final weapon, there's plenty of other options for him at end game (ignore physical immunity, HP steal, increased counter damage, and faster tech bar all come to mind). Though you have to go through Bucca Island without heals, you'll at least have Evil Gate. The only other drawbacks of this party are no way to reduce enemy HP and no Protect Down, meaning boss fights might drag on, but other than that it's super straightforward.

15 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I suspect that the event system wouldn't like that very much.

Any takers for 3x Kevin in that scenario? :D

Triple Death Hand party, easy B|

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1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

By the way we are talking about Duelist but I think Swordmaster would fit even better in a Magical Oriented team, as he get absolutly all the Sabers and the 4 main one are naturally MT, if he can't get Duelist's raw power his LV3 is actually still pretty strong plus let's not forget that Speed Up also reduce the cast time, so this can be quite a good buff for spellcaster, Swordmaster, Arch Mage, Sage could work very well.

Swordmaster/Archmage/Sage would be an interesting alternative to Lord/Archmage/Sage; you would be trading Protect Up and a better final weapon for three extra sabers. I do prefer Lord's level 3 tech with his final weapon to Swordmaster's; I'm convinced that Ragnarok is not great unless you're on a team with Ninja Master.

By the way, has anyone been brave/stupid enough to run a team without Heal Light? I feel like there are tons of interesting teams that would be possible if you based your strategy completely around item healing or alternative methods like Dragon Ring or Mad Beast's Fang. You could make better use of all that heal hurts gear. One strategy would be to skip most random battles and just level up around Gold Statues, saving your items for boss fights and relying on passive healing when you're stuck to recover HP. In general, the classes without Heal Light are more powerful, so I'm sure you could build some awesome teams without that restriction.

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24 minutes ago, Barnacle_Ed said:

Grand Divina: Yeah she gets HL, TR, speed up, decent casting of all LV1 damage spells, and eventually all sabers...but honestly Bishop does nearly all of the same things better and earlier. Divina has the edge in damage spells, sure, but Bishop still has Saint Beam and you can always make up for this with your final party member.

I don't think Bishop can be really compared to Grand Divina in terms of damage spells; Grand Divina gets the six major elements, ST or MT, and can cast these instantly by the end game. Bishop gets one element, which is great for dark enemies, bad for holy ones, and missing the 50% weakness bonus for the other four types. Grand Divina also gets Transshape and Sleep Flower, which should work great with the Duelist carrying a shield (Sleep Flower self-cast with Dragon Shield and reflect armor should put all attackers to sleep immediately). Bishop's healing is more convenient as it's naturally MT, but Grand Divina's is just as powerful. Plus, since all her damage spells are instant, she's always free to heal.

The advantage I see to Bishop is Protect Up and Magic Shield, but not much else. But as an atheist, I might be biased ;-) More seriously, I've only played Bishop in one group, going for Sage in most other situations, so I could be missing something.

Edited by rpschamp

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20 minutes ago, Barnacle_Ed said:

Lise is a strong and flexible character that, to me, is meant more as a "force multiplier" that makes a good party even better rather than necessarily hard-carrying the party by herself. She's the glue that can fill any cracks you might have in terms of stat magic or healing or Anti Magic in a team since she can spec into any of of these as needed. It's pretty tough for me to imagine a group she would seem out-of-place in.

I agree with this too, and I've used Lise in almost every party so far because of this. I think I've just gotten bored of her and started looking for non-Lise solutions. If I find any good ones I'll be sure to let everyone know ;-)

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48 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I don't think Bishop can be really compared to Grand Divina in terms of damage spells; Grand Divina gets the six major elements, ST or MT, and can cast these instantly by the end game. Bishop gets one element, which is great for dark enemies, bad for holy ones, and missing the 50% weakness bonus for the other four types. Grand Divina also gets Transshape and Sleep Flower, which should work great with the Duelist carrying a shield (Sleep Flower self-cast with Dragon Shield and reflect armor should put all attackers to sleep immediately). Bishop's healing is more convenient as it's naturally MT, but Grand Divina's is just as powerful. Plus, since all her damage spells are instant, she's always free to heal.

The advantage I see to Bishop is Protect Up and Magic Shield, but not much else. But as an atheist, I might be biased ;-) More seriously, I've only played Bishop in one group, going for Sage in most other situations, so I could be missing something.

IMO Bishop and Grand Divina serve two different purposes at the end of the day. Divina is a "healer who can also rapid-fire off damage spells and sabers" while Bishop is a "healer with defensive stat ups, sabers, and turns into a melee DPS machine with her final weapon" . I tend to prefer Bishop as a dedicated healer since Protect Up and Magic Shield are fantastic at keeping a party alive, and again she gets Holy Light at first class change which really helps speed leveling up early on. FWIW in my upcoming Duelist party I plan on using Bishop as the team's dedicated healer, and Hawk as a Ninja Master to cover debuffs and elemental damage.

 

44 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I agree with this too, and I've used Lise in almost every party so far because of this. I think I've just gotten bored of her and started looking for non-Lise solutions. If I find any good ones I'll be sure to let everyone know ;-)

That's fair, I used Lise in basically every team I ran in the base game and got sick of her as well for a while 9_9 the good news is it's much easier to build a functional party without her in this rom hack!

Edited by Barnacle_Ed

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10 minutes ago, Barnacle_Ed said:
46 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I agree with this too, and I've used Lise in almost every party so far because of this. I think I've just gotten bored of her and started looking for non-Lise solutions. If I find any good ones I'll be sure to let everyone know ;-)

That's fair, I used Lise in basically every team I ran in the base game and got sick of her as well for a while 9_9 the good news is it's much easier to build a functional party without her in this rom hack!

True that, it was almost never advisable to go Lise-less in the original :-)

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3 hours ago, Barnacle_Ed said:
3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I suspect that the event system wouldn't like that very much.

Any takers for 3x Kevin in that scenario? :D

Triple Death Hand party, easy B|

Death Hand, God Hand, Dervish. Invert armor on Dervish for Protect Up when you need it.

But c'mon - Evil Shaman, Sage, Necromancer. Three strong casters with at least two in each element, best healer in the game, Protect/Mind Up, MT Power/Mind Down, Black Curse, six sabers, Antimagic, Lunatic, Life Booster.... Bishop could sub for Evil Shaman if you prefer for Saint Saber and a spirit weapon. Unleash the demons.

Edited by rpschamp

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6 hours ago, rpschamp said:

But c'mon - Evil Shaman, Sage, Necromancer. Three strong casters with at least two in each element, best healer in the game, Protect/Mind Up, MT Power/Mind Down, Black Curse, six sabers, Antimagic, Lunatic, Life Booster.... Bishop could sub for Evil Shaman if you prefer for Saint Saber and a spirit weapon. Unleash the demons.

and how do you get past FMH or Jewel Eater?

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I'm starting to consider my next playthrough. There's one combo I'd like to try, which I haven't tried for 15+ years since it was so OP in the vanilla game: Light Lise and Dark Hawk (or alternatively Dark Lise with invert armor). In addition to that, I'd like to have healing, sabers, some elemental spells, and possibly a debuff to lower enemies' max HP. Who should I pick as the third character, and which classes would you recommend?

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12 hours ago, Barnacle_Ed said:

Now, while I agree that Duelist is pretty self-sufficient, I still have to stick to my earlier point that it's tough to justify any Angela in a party with him over someone else. Unless, of course, you want a challenge.

Grand Divina: Yeah she gets HL, TR, speed up, decent casting of all LV1 damage spells, and eventually all sabers...but honestly Bishop does nearly all of the same things better and earlier. Divina has the edge in damage spells, sure, but Bishop still has Saint Beam and you can always make up for this with your final party member.

Rune Master: Again, Bishop does sabers better. I will agree that MT'ing silence or snowman is outstanding and that this class is pretty great - I'm getting some great mileage from her in my current team - but her complete lack of stat magic would probably make for a tough playthrough (or require a LOT of farming to compensate for)

Magus: Magus + Duelist is definitely a ballsy all-out damage team. Whatever healer you pick for the group will certainly have their hands full :D I feel like this party would also struggle in the stat magic department, even with her Power Up.

 

Arch Mage, as I said earlier, I could at least see an argument for. Aura Wave and Anti Magic means Duelist doesn't have to waste his time casting them anymore. Useful stat downs for boss fights. Strong damage spells that, as you said, all benefit really from the Duelist's sabers - especially with her final weapon. However, I must wonder if Swordmaster would be a better partner for the Arch Mage in general!

Having played Duelist, Arch Mage, Vanadis I can assure than Arch Mage works wonder with Duelist, this is maybe one of the most "Boss killer" party even without Protect Down or Fireblaze with Saber of corresponding weakness on corresponding Day and Power Up and his Final Weapon Duelist does insane damage even hitting the 999 cap on some bosses, same with Arch Mage Mind Up + Mind Down + Saber + Corresponding Day and Weakness + Final Weapon with this 2 you just destroy most God Beasts with both ridiculous Physical and Magical damage. But yeah I also think Swordmaster would be a good teammate for Arch Mage. 

And I suspect Magus would be the same maybe even better for mob fight with her Final Weapon + Armor that make spell neutral + Saber + Using spell of corresponding day, and for bosses Deathspell is an option, tough the problem with pairing Magus and Duelist is you need Stat Down, Protect Up and Heal Light but most classes that have Heal Light don't have Stat Down, the best pick would probably be picking Warrior Monk use Invert Armor to Power Down and Mind Down and Heal Light and farming Bulette's Scales for boss fight. IMO while this can work Magus would work better with Light Duran.

I do agree that Duelist + Rune Master would be tough ^^

Regarding Grand Divina VS Bishop really depend, IMO Gran Divina offers more option overall and is the best Spellcaster of the 2, tough Def Up and Magic Shield does give an edge to Bishop regarding Defenses, honnestly I do agree that Bishop is worth considering over Gran Divina just for these 2 spells depending of which team you plan to do.

12 hours ago, rpschamp said:

By the way, has anyone been brave/stupid enough to run a team without Heal Light? I feel like there are tons of interesting teams that would be possible if you based your strategy completely around item healing or alternative methods like Dragon Ring or Mad Beast's Fang. You could make better use of all that heal hurts gear. One strategy would be to skip most random battles and just level up around Gold Statues, saving your items for boss fights and relying on passive healing when you're stuck to recover HP. In general, the classes without Heal Light are more powerful, so I'm sure you could build some awesome teams without that restriction.

I feel like if you want to do without Heal Light you'll need to heal through other means, I feel the Fenrir Knight would be really interesting in that kind of set up her Final Weapon gives a good source of healing and she does have Moon Saber for draining HP, with Invert Armor she gets all Buffs could be paire with Ninja Master to access Counter more often and getting the MT Debuff, and Ninja Master is good physical damage dealer third party could be Arch Mage to get all elemental spell, Aura Wave and Anti Magic. Tough personnaly I wouldn't be crazy enough to try a no Heal Light party XD.

1 hour ago, Serafie1999AD said:

I'm starting to consider my next playthrough. There's one combo I'd like to try, which I haven't tried for 15+ years since it was so OP in the vanilla game: Light Lise and Dark Hawk (or alternatively Dark Lise with invert armor). In addition to that, I'd like to have healing, sabers, some elemental spells, and possibly a debuff to lower enemies' max HP. Who should I pick as the third character, and which classes would you recommend?

Dark Hawk and Light Lise are pretty easy to do depending of which class you go, considering you want Healing, Sabers and Elemental damage however the most logical pick would be Angela and I can see 2 teams :

-Nightblade, Star Lancer, Gran Divina : This team get everything you want, Nightblade get Deadly Weapon for Max Hp Reduction, with Star Lancer's Aura Wave you can take full advantage of Nightblade's LV3 FST, Star Lancer also provide Marduke and once she get the good gear and stat she can cast him almost instantly, Grand Divina provide Heal Light, Elemental damage for the 6 main elements and with her Final Weapon all 6 Main Sabers, only downside are no Anti-Magic (tough this shouldn't be an issue here) and Debuff are ST only.

-Ninja Master, Vanadis, Rune Master : The healing is provided by Vanadis who is on a more support role here, Rune Master bring Elemental spells and Sabers for the 4 main elements, and the LV3 Spells which can be great for crowd control with the statut effect attach to them, Ninja Master means all Debuff MT so he can help Rune Master's with AoE cleaning, and with Counter strat and Fireblaze he can be a pretty good physical damage dealer when you need it.

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6 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
12 hours ago, rpschamp said:

But c'mon - Evil Shaman, Sage, Necromancer. Three strong casters with at least two in each element, best healer in the game, Protect/Mind Up, MT Power/Mind Down, Black Curse, six sabers, Antimagic, Lunatic, Life Booster.... Bishop could sub for Evil Shaman if you prefer for Saint Saber and a spirit weapon. Unleash the demons.

and how do you get past FMH or Jewel Eater?

They would be tough. It would be advisable to farm a Moon Coin for each fight, the first just outside Jadd and the second in Jadd castle. For FMH you can put all your stats into strength (with maybe one agility and two vitality) and just try to keep your HP up. It would take a few tries but I think you could eventually get through it. At least by Jewel Eater you'd have Holy Ball; everyone could wear defensive gear and use Matango Oils to try to compensate for Carlie's earth weakness and just bomb him to death. Again, it might take a few tries and you'd burn a lot of healing items. Things would get easier after the first class change.

I just love the idea of three Carlies running around, pounding things to death. Has anyone seen The Brood by David Cronenberg?

Edited by rpschamp

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3 hours ago, Nesouk said:

-Nightblade, Star Lancer, Gran Divina : This team get everything you want, Nightblade get Deadly Weapon for Max Hp Reduction, with Star Lancer's Aura Wave you can take full advantage of Nightblade's LV3 FST, Star Lancer also provide Marduke and once she get the good gear and stat she can cast him almost instantly, Grand Divina provide Heal Light, Elemental damage for the 6 main elements and with her Final Weapon all 6 Main Sabers, only downside are no Anti-Magic (tough this shouldn't be an issue here) and Debuff are ST only.

Ninja Master, Star Lancer, Grand Divina - Kongo Rakan and Fireblaze against bosses, Analyze and Energy Ball for critical hits against bosses, MT stat downs, Marduk, and Grand Divina for random enemies. Nightblade has fewer advantages: Grand Divina can apply Curse faster with Evil Gate, MT Fire Jutsu will out-damage Black Rain by boosting Marduk and Grand Divina's magic by 25%, you already have MT Silence with Marduk, and Ninja Master's final weapon is much more useful. MT Water Jutsu is also useful for reducing damage from those tech-heavy werewolves you can't silence. Deadly Weapon? Moon Coins are common enough; just pick a bunch up in Jadd Castle. Save Nightblade for those groups where there's not much MT damage magic to boost or you need a Curse or Silence caster. But I think maybe Nesouk was just trying to include Nightblade for variety.

TBH, Hawk/Lise/Angela is a really fun game, and there are a several cool ways to play it. Ninja Master, Vanadis, Rune Master sounds like a blast. Rogue, Archmage, Vanadis also works, but you'll be missing the sabers. Pairing Ninja Master with Fenrir Knight (with invert armor) would also give you more chances to use Fenrir Knight's counter recovery with Ninja Master's final weapon, but you'd need another way to heal for those fights where you don't have a basic elemental weakness to exploit.

Edited by rpschamp

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21 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Duran, stop talking to yourself!

5e3ee858ac3ed_SeikenDensetsu3(J)_sinofmana010.png.92071b60a0a3cfe8900b0bc5c599772e.png

also, any bets on what happens next?

Duran Duran!

The game has to decide who Duran is talking to.... Does the first Duran respond with Angela's text about her story in Altena?

Or... the game crashes?

Will Duran Duran ever make it to Seito Wenderu?

 

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4 hours ago, Nesouk said:

-Nightblade, Star Lancer, Gran Divina : This team get everything you want, Nightblade get Deadly Weapon for Max Hp Reduction, with Star Lancer's Aura Wave you can take full advantage of Nightblade's LV3 FST, Star Lancer also provide Marduke and once she get the good gear and stat she can cast him almost instantly, Grand Divina provide Heal Light, Elemental damage for the 6 main elements and with her Final Weapon all 6 Main Sabers, only downside are no Anti-Magic (tough this shouldn't be an issue here) and Debuff are ST only.

-Ninja Master, Vanadis, Rune Master : The healing is provided by Vanadis who is on a more support role here, Rune Master bring Elemental spells and Sabers for the 4 main elements, and the LV3 Spells which can be great for crowd control with the statut effect attach to them, Ninja Master means all Debuff MT so he can help Rune Master's with AoE cleaning, and with Counter strat and Fireblaze he can be a pretty good physical damage dealer when you need it.

 

1 hour ago, rpschamp said:

Ninja Master, Star Lancer, Grand Divina - Kongo Rakan and Fireblaze against bosses, Analyze and Energy Ball for critical hits against bosses, MT stat downs, Marduk, and Grand Divina for random enemies. Nightblade has fewer advantages: Grand Divina can apply Curse faster with Evil Gate, MT Fire Jutsu will out-damage Black Rain by boosting Marduk and Grand Divina's magic by 25%, you already have MT Silence with Marduk, and Ninja Master's final weapon is much more useful. MT Water Jutsu is also useful for reducing damage from those tech-heavy werewolves you can't silence. Deadly Weapon? Moon Coins are common enough; just pick a bunch up in Jadd Castle. Save Nightblade for those groups where there's not much MT damage magic to boost or you need a Curse or Silence caster. But I think maybe Nesouk was just trying to include Nightblade for variety.

@rpschamp Ninja Master doesn't have ways to reduce enemies' max HP, which is what I wanted in my listing. Having NM and SL also means you won't have any level 3 FST. As for Moon Coins, I'm personally against my strategy being dependent on farming items, since that's against two of my gameplay principles: 1) I don't want to rely on luck (which is the case when farming rare drops), and 2) I'd rather rely on the party's skills as much as possible, and minimize replacing missing abilities with consumable items (which is why I don't like using Byzel in the vanilla game, as the Black Market items can replace entire classes).

@Nesouk SL/NB/GD definitely sounds like an option. How would the following teams work:
Star Lancer, Nightblade, Bishop/Sage
Vanadis, Nightblade, Duelist/Swordmaster
Vanadis, Ninja Master, Death Hand

 

24 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Duran, stop talking to yourself!

So you actually went to test having the same character in the party multiple times? :D I suppose he'll free his stunt doubles from prison after FMH.

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