Barnacle_Ed

Character/Job Party Recommendations

518 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Nesouk said:

-Sage : Honnestly even with max out PIE, I don't think her Final Weapon is that good, the Regen just never catch up with the damage receive and the regen stops while Carlie is casting.... which is obviously a problem when the character is suppose to be a spell caster, IMO this final weapon isn't as good as it sound, and Sage is probably better of with the weapon that increase Heal Light. Well still have some advantage over Bishop like better damage with Saint Beam, Dark Force and Rainbow Dus and Curse with Dark Force.

I find Gigas Flail to be pretty useful up through the God Beasts and for random encounters most of the game, but towards the end of the game Holy Flail is definitely more effective for bosses. It's nice to have both options and choose the best for each situation. You can also equip Mad Beast Fangs for an extra 50% or so HP regen boost.

3 hours ago, Nesouk said:

-Ninja Master : Hawk is just the master of counter, he can deal a ton of damage like this, open more counter with his final weapon, debuffing all ennemies, Ninja Master is just an awesome class plain and simply.

Since you've played Nightblade through the whole game, do you find Ninja Master's MT Mind Down or Nightblade's Black Rain to be better for MT damage? Without having played a Nightblade through the God Beasts, I would assume that a caster team would prefer the MT Mind Down to boost subsequent spells but a physical team would just go for the higher base damage of Black Rain.

Also, my thesis is wrapping up so I'm finally going to get to the Duran, Angela, Carlie team I've been planning. I've decided to give up the Duelist idea (Grand Divina's instantaneous cast time would kind of defeat the purpose of this shield/caster team) and go with Light Duran for Heal Light and Protect Up at the first class change and more class change options for my casters. At this point I'm thinking Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Carlie for power casting and status/reflect effects or Light Duran, Archmage, Sage for power casting and extra support spells (Aura Wave, Leaf Saber; not having to choose between Mind Up and elemental sabers). I may try a few options and play around a bit.

Edited by rpschamp

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4 hours ago, rpschamp said:

At this point I'm thinking Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Carlie for power casting and status/reflect effects or Light Duran, Archmage, Sage for power casting and extra support spells (Aura Wave, Leaf Saber; not having to choose between Mind Up and elemental sabers). I may try a few options and play around a bit.

It's pretty hard to go wrong with a party that has Archmage and Sage in it IMO - Lord kind of seems like the better choice to me since you already have anti magic and he is a pretty strong melee fighter, plus speed up and speed down.

Dark Angela and Carlie is more fun to think about imo, but I've used both Lord and Archmage a lot alread. Necromancer and Paladin complement each other pretty well, but you only have Magic Shield and no Mind Up between the two of them...Magus might fit that party better than Rune Master since she can Mind Up herself and has Lunatic in her large arsenal of damage spells. Plus she also has dark force so she can use Magatama if you can't spare an accessory slot for Carlie.

 

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention, good luck with the thesis! It took me a LOT of effort to finish mine (to say nothing of defending it) but it was well worth it in the end.

Edited by Barnacle_Ed

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4 hours ago, rpschamp said:

I find Gigas Flail to be pretty useful up through the God Beasts and for random encounters most of the game, but towards the end of the game Holy Flail is definitely more effective for bosses. It's nice to have both options and choose the best for each situation. You can also equip Mad Beast Fangs for an extra 50% or so HP regen boost.

Since you've played Nightblade through the whole game, do you find Ninja Master's MT Mind Down or Nightblade's Black Rain to be better for MT damage? Without having played a Nightblade through the God Beasts, I would assume that a caster team would prefer the MT Mind Down to boost subsequent spells but a physical team would just go for the higher base damage of Black Rain.

Honnestly Giga Flail disappointed me, the problem is I cast a lot with Sage in this team, between the Sabers, Mind Up, Dark Force for Curse all the time she is casting the effect stop, so this already is an issue but secondly even without the equipment to boost it spamming Heal Light is a far better way to heal, maybe it's because I'm on Hard but the damage I receive is just to high for Giga Flail to have any kind of relevance, so yeah this weapon is pretty useless to me, and so I stand by my point that Bishop is the better healer.

As for Ninja Master VS Nightblade well the thing is I never use them in a casting focus party, Lord, Sage, Ninja Master is more physical and Nightblade, Death Hand, Paladin is physical heavy. If I had a pick tough Curse effect is just much more usefull, and it happen that Black Rain is also one of the most damaging spell in the game. Yeah the spike armors reflect 170% instead of 100%, but curse effect require only 1 accessory slot while Spike armor require 3 Armors, and Curse has other benefit.

Then again if you are in a caster focus party, chance are you have another caster that can do the Curse effect, Black Rain still does more damage than Jutsu, the question is then are the mobs tough enough to make the Mind Down relevant or is Black Rain raw power allow for a kill fast enough that the Mind Down wouldn't be necessary.

For a Light Duran, Dark Carlie, Dark Angela my pick would be either Lord, Magus, Necromancer or Paladin, Rune Master, Necromancer personnaly.

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Magical focus groups: I think the formula here is 1) Angela for her spell power and damage versatility, 2) Hawk or Carlie as a second caster, and 3) Duran or Lise for a shield runner. I've played several variations of this group up through the God Beasts and found two that I really like:

1) Ninja Master, Star Lancer, Grand Divina - This was more of a mixed magical/physical team capable of ramping up either damage type, depending on the circumstance. For mobs, I could lead with Hawk or Lise, depending on whether I preferred a double hitter and Marduke or a shield runner and Fire Jutsu to complement Angela's spell barrage. For bosses, I either pumped up Angela and turned her loose for magical damage or focused more on saber spells and Fireblaze for physical damage.

2) Fenrir Knight, Archmage, Sage - Fenrir Knight was nice as a complement here since her final weapon gave her something active to do other than distract enemies while Archmage and Sage bombed them to oblivion. Maybe one of the reasons Gigas Flail worked nicely here was that I had HP coming in from Fenrir Knight's final weapon as well. The spell chain here was devastating, 80% of the time. Still, I found myself in a few situations (Dolan in particular) where I found that this group had difficulty with damage diversity.

I would like to test more variations of this group. For this Duran, Angela, Carlie group, I'm gravitating towards Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Carlie. One advantage Duran has over Lise is shield variety, so I'd like to play on this. This is why the status/reflect strategy (using reflect armor to reflect the status of the last spell cast on you to all melee attacks, as with Mispolm and Petrify) appeals to me: Duran can choose his status immunity and also get a shield with one accessory slot. Rune Master gets several statuses to choose from with her level 3 spells, and Evil Shaman gets Sleep Flower which has the added bonus of not dealing damage. Necromancer, though, gets better damage diversity in general, helping solve the major problem I had with the Fenrir Knight, Archmage, Sage team. I have never tried this status/reflect strategy before, so I cannot attest to it's overall usefulness, but it at least gives Duran something to do while Angela and Carlie are casting.

Of course, Lord, Archmage, Sage looks fantastic, but I don't think it will be very different from the Fenrir Knight, Archmage, Sage group I've already played, so I think I will be trying something different this time.

9 hours ago, Barnacle_Ed said:

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention, good luck with the thesis! It took me a LOT of effort to finish mine (to say nothing of defending it) but it was well worth it in the end.

Thank you, it has been a long journey for me, and while I've grown accustomed to the grad school existence, I'm looking forward to trying something new (and hopefully putting away a little more money for the future in the process).

Edited by rpschamp

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Lord, Archmage, Sage compare to Fenrir Knight Lord can reach higher damage I think endgame due to his Final Weapon, tough not as high as Duran dark classes.

Then if you want a party that can deal both kind of damage Duelist, Arch Mage and Vanadis is a very strong party, this team can reach insane damage with both Duelist for physical and Arch Mage for magical. Might be possible to replace Duelist by Swordmaster, or replace Duelist by Death Hand for even faster LV3 Tech, and MT Lunatic (can be MT Life Booster with Invert Armor), tough you lose Shield Death Hand I think has a better DPS and 2-hit LV1 Tech for Fireblaze abuse.

If you want to deal statut effect through reflection, assuming it work of course, Rune Master might be a best pick, could be funny cast MT LV3 spells on your team, then Curse on the ennemies then enjoy, don't think there is another classe that has as statut. Tough I already seen some weird thing with physical reflection like ennemies getting snowmaned, silenced, poisonned AND put to sleep at the same time for no reason, or ennemies getting petrified for no reason, or sometime I get Silenced while fighting Mispolm when i get thorn damage de.spite having use nothing that could Silence him, and him not casting anything with Silence effect on him.

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1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

If you want to deal statut effect through reflection, assuming it work of course, Rune Master might be a best pick, could be funny cast MT LV3 spells on your team, then Curse on the ennemies then enjoy, don't think there is another classe that has as statut. Tough I already seen some weird thing with physical reflection like ennemies getting snowmaned, silenced, poisonned AND put to sleep at the same time for no reason, or ennemies getting petrified for no reason, or sometime I get Silenced while fighting Mispolm when i get thorn damage de.spite having use nothing that could Silence him, and him not casting anything with Silence effect on him.

These effects are based on the last spell cast on you, in this case probably from the enemies you are fighting. Mispolm casts Stone Cloud (and maybe some Silence spell) on himself so you can get those effects from attacking him.

Sleep Flower is another status spell that should work that Rune Master does not have. It also deals no damage, which should be nice here. There are a few classes with this ability, Grand Divina and Evil Shaman being two of them. Body Change is another one, but I'm not as interested in this effect.

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39 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Sleep Flower is another status spell that should work that Rune Master does not have. It also deals no damage, which should be nice here. There are a few classes with this ability, Grand Divina and Evil Shaman being two of them.

That would at least give Sleep Flower one use. At the moment, I find the spell utterly useless. Sleep doesn't last for long, and it's cancelled the moment the enemies take damage (unless the sleep status expires even sooner than that), and it seems it just increases the enemies' aggro, making them counter with spell/tech when they wake up.

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45 minutes ago, Serafie1999AD said:

That would at least give Sleep Flower one use. At the moment, I find the spell utterly useless. Sleep doesn't last for long, and it's cancelled the moment the enemies take damage (unless the sleep status expires even sooner than that), and it seems it just increases the enemies' aggro, making them counter with spell/tech when they wake up.

If you have the spell in one of your groups, you can test it by equipping a Wind God Bracelet with reflect armor and self casting. The bracelet should grant immunity, and the target of your spell should now reflect sleep onto incoming attackers. I have a bad habit of deleting old games, otherwise I would test it myself.

Most of the status/reflect possibilities deal damage with the spell; Sleep Flower and Body Change do not. I'm not too interested in Body Change because of the Chibikko/experience issue, but Sleep Flower could be really useful for slowing down incoming attackers, especially for a magical focus group that would not keep waking them up with melee. (It would also give me that great feeling of repurposing a once useless spell.) Stone Cloud would be another fun one to try (with Gauntlet or Earth Shield), but you'll have to have a way to quickly recover that level 3 earth damage, maybe by timing a Heal Light to apply right after.

Edited by rpschamp

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1 hour ago, rpschamp said:

These effects are based on the last spell cast on you, in this case probably from the enemies you are fighting. Mispolm casts Stone Cloud (and maybe some Silence spell) on himself so you can get those effects from attacking him.

For the Snowman + Poison + Silence case it happened on Knight type who had no statut on their attacks, and none of my team can inflict these statut neither the ennemy.

Same for Mispolm he doesn't cast any spell on himself that inflict Silence,  and I didn't anything that could silence so no ideas where the silence come from.

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7 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

Same for Mispolm he doesn't cast any spell on himself that inflict Silence,  and I didn't anything that could silence so no ideas where the silence come from.

his killstinger spell inflicts mute

5 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Magical focus groups

fun fact - where I'm from a "focus group" is a collection of idiots occupied with meetings while the rest does actual useful work - hope that doesn't apply here :P

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3 hours ago, Serafie1999AD said:

That would at least give Sleep Flower one use. At the moment, I find the spell utterly useless. Sleep doesn't last for long, and it's cancelled the moment the enemies take damage (unless the sleep status expires even sooner than that), and it seems it just increases the enemies' aggro, making them counter with spell/tech when they wake up.

I missed this bit about the aggro.... If this is true, then this combo may not be as useful as I anticipated. The point would be to slow the enemy down, but if Sleep Flower speeds up techs, then you would be better off doing this with Stone Cloud instead and wearing the resist Earth accessory to mitigate damage.

2 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
8 hours ago, rpschamp said:

Magical focus groups

fun fact - where I'm from a "focus group" is a collection of idiots occupied with meetings while the rest does actual useful work - hope that doesn't apply here :P

True, but the magical focus groups cast spells at those meetings, so they're at least entertaining.

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7 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I missed this bit about the aggro.... If this is true, then this combo may not be as useful as I anticipated. The point would be to slow the enemy down, but if Sleep Flower speeds up techs, then you would be better off doing this with Stone Cloud instead and wearing the resist Earth accessory to mitigate damage.

the extra aggro should only apply if they get hit directly with the sleep flower spell not the reflected variant.
this is purely an effect of a spell hitting a monster, nothing special.

 

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3 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

his killstinger spell inflicts mute

He doesn't cast it on himself, so doesn't explain why sometime my character get Silenced by hitting him.

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5 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

the extra aggro should only apply if they get hit directly with the sleep flower spell not the reflected variant.
this is purely an effect of a spell hitting a monster, nothing special.

Thank you, this is what I initially assumed.

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I tried the Sleep Flower reflecting tactic with reflect armor and the accessory that protects from sleep. Yeah, it works. However, it's still not a very useful tactic, since the enemies wake up when they next take damage, and I think it's better to setup your spell usage and equipment for other purposes. The ironic part is, the enemy dragons used petrifying breath on me, and it turned out to be a much more effective tactic, as the enemies soon got themselves petrified by attacking me. :D

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Is the sleep effect increase the damage of next physical hit ? If yes having an easy way to put sleep like this could be good, can definitly see using a counter on an ennemy that just got Sleeped by attacking you. Snowman could also be a good statut for that kind of strat actually and it so happen that Duran is naturally resistant to Ice ^^.

Edited by Nesouk

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3 hours ago, Serafie1999AD said:

I tried the Sleep Flower reflecting tactic with reflect armor and the accessory that protects from sleep. Yeah, it works. However, it's still not a very useful tactic, since the enemies wake up when they next take damage, and I think it's better to setup your spell usage and equipment for other purposes.

For a caster team though that does not often use melee, this could be great, since the only attacks that wake enemies up are coming from high damaging spells. Paladin, Rune Master, Evil Shaman, for instance, with Paladin only attacking selectively and mostly using his shield to corral enemies (like a sheep dog haha). Here you’d have the choice of Sleep Flower or Stone Cloud.

While great against mobs, though, I’m not sure how effective this team would be against bosses.... I’m thinking it might be better instead not to build your team around this tactic but maybe take either Rune Master or Evil Shaman to use it when convenient. Could make some parts of the Dragon Hole much easier :-)

And yes, Snowman would be great too, especially for melee teams, and also those enemies that resist Petrify :-)

Edited by rpschamp

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Really Darkshine Knight and Korren are so much more manageable when you have a Dual Hitter like Hawk or Kevin and Fireblaze to double counter them, wishbone on the Shield wielder definitly help if Korren decide to spam Deathspell or even cast MT Deathspell, we'll see how Dragon Emperor goes now that I know his gimmick and what spell he can use I think it will be a better fight.

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1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

Really Darkshine Knight and Korren are so much more manageable when you have a Dual Hitter like Hawk or Kevin and Fireblaze to double counter them, wishbone on the Shield wielder definitly help if Korren decide to spam Deathspell or even cast MT Deathspell, we'll see how Dragon Emperor goes now that I know his gimmick and what spell he can use I think it will be a better fight.

A double-hitter, hmm.... I've been thinking about this too. A close alternative to Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Carlie would be Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Hawk, trading some spell power for someone who can melee when necessary. I'm thinking Paladin/Lord, Rune Master, Nightblade/Ninja Master would be a pretty terrifying team. Here, I can see taking the Nightblade instead of the Ninja Master for Black Rain, since Rune Master doesn't need the MT Mind Down as much as Angela's other classes, and Angela would be working crowd control anyways with her MT status effects. I would be missing my Sleep Flower but with Hawk instead of Carlie, I'd be going with more melee anyways. What do you guys think?

Edited by rpschamp

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Well Dragon Emperor defeated, even tough it did go better I still stand on my opinion that he is the hardest final boss, the main problem with his gimmick are Magic Attacks, the problem is unlike Physical Offensive and Defensive debuff are contain into one spell, normally this is good except for this fight, if you don't have Magic Shield or Counter Magic you can't raise his Magic Defense without raising his Magic Attack, and due to his Gimmick if you can't raise his Magic Defense you can't prevent him from reducing your buffed Magic Defense the perfect scenario would be as follow :

-Cast Protect Up on him, then Protect Up on the team
-Power Down on the team then on him
-Magic Shield/Counter on him then Mind Up on us

But sadly Lord/Ninja Master/Sage doesn't have Magic Shield or Counter Magic, and so the issue his spells hit like a fucking truck, with neither Buff or Debuff if he hit a weakness that's 999 guaranteed, and even without weakness his spell hit for 700-800, Byzel Armor aren't an option due to the low defense and low HP factor, Life Booster is an option but that mean you have to cast Life Booster on him making this fight even longer. So the only real way is to put Mind Down on him and keep Mind Up on the team, thank god Sage is perfect for this since she has both Mind Up and Heal Light so basically :

-Cast Water Jutsu on myself then on him.
-Protect Up on him then on me
-Fire Jutsu and Mind Up

After that :

-Sage just spam Heal Light and Mind Up throughout the all fight, really have nothing else she can do.

-Ninja Master and Lord deals the damage, due to Protect Up on him and Power Down on us I'm doing really low damage early on, BUT Fireblaze with Lord to open the counter as much as possible slowly increase our damage until are damage became decent, to put in perspective at the start Hawk's LV1 without Counter deal 20 per hit, once he is fully debuff with the Fireblaze he deals 90 damage (125 per hit with Counter) and by the end of the fight Lord deals over 400 with Magic Circle.

My main issue was running out of item especially Angel's Grail since I used a lot of them against Black Rabite.

So yeah that conclude this team, well this was a blast to play I am pretty satisfied with Lord as a fighter he is amazing with Hawk or Kevin he makes counter, and so Fireblaze, so much easier to use effectivly, it's also fitting since now the 2 sub-final boss of his scenario are focus on countering ^^, and thanks to the bonus damage of his Final Weapon and other gear Magic Circle deals a lot of Damage, so really Lord is probably the best ST LV2/3 user in the game thanks to that.

Ninja Master is still the old good Ninja Master we know and love nothing to add, tough I didn't found his Final Weapon as usefull as it sound and end up keeping the Dancing Dagger for most of the game, just to maximize his Counter damage.

And Sage well definitly not convince on her Final Weapon but definitly a good character.

15 hours ago, rpschamp said:

A double-hitter, hmm.... I've been thinking about this too. A close alternative to Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Carlie would be Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Hawk, trading some spell power for someone who can melee when necessary. I'm thinking Paladin/Lord, Rune Master, Nightblade/Ninja Master would be a pretty terrifying team. Here, I can see taking the Nightblade instead of the Ninja Master for Black Rain, since Rune Master doesn't need the MT Mind Down as much as Angela's other classes, and Angela would be working crowd control anyways with her MT status effects. I would be missing my Sleep Flower but with Hawk instead of Carlie, I'd be going with more melee anyways. What do you guys think?

Well if you want melee damage Nightblade is definitly an option, you could also take Kevin doing Paladin, Arch Mage, Death Hand using Magic Shield for Defenses, Power Down and Mind Down for debuffing, Death Hand + Paladin give you all 6 Main Sabers for Arch Mage, Death Hand is just a powerhouse and thanks to Aura Wave is self-substain can either use him as LV3 Tech User or Counter strat since he is Dual Hitter like Hawk and you got Anti Magic so that both Death Hand and Arch Mage can keep bringing the pain both physically and magically.

Edited by Nesouk

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11 hours ago, Nesouk said:

-Power Down on the team then on him

That makes no sense, you just need to power down him, he'll power down you then with the next attack, so you can just keep normal power on you until he does and get some "free" damage.

11 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Life Booster is an option but that mean you have to cast Life Booster on him making this fight even longer.

No, it only raised maxHP, current HP stays where it is.
The only effect Life Booster on him has is to move his "50% HP" reaction to a bit earlier, nothing else.
Unless he was Zable Fahr, THEN it'd hurt you.

11 hours ago, Nesouk said:

My main issue was running out of item especially Angel's Grail since I used a lot of them against Black Rabite.

Were you out of money? You could put extra grails into storage and take them out after beating BR.
Or beat BR then go back and buy more, the path stays open, you can just run past him (and tank his opening Dark Force Tidal Wave if you're too slow).

Edited by praetarius5018

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28 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

That makes no sense, you just need to power down him, he'll power down you then with the next attack, so you can just keep normal power on you until he does and get some "free" damage.

Correct that's a mistake on my part.

29 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

No, it only raised maxHP, current HP stays where it is.
The only effect Life Booster on him has is to move his "50% HP" reaction to a bit earlier, nothing else.
Unless he was Zable Fahr, THEN it'd hurt you.

Forgot that it didn't impact current HP so I guess this would have been an option with the Byzel armor, otherwise I was using the "consume MP to cheat death armor" which has a good HP so my character are already in the 900 range so at that point Life Booster wouldn't have change much ^^.

31 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

Were you out of money? You could put extra grails into storage and take them out after beating BR.
Or beat BR then go back and buy more, the path stays open, you can just run past him (and tank his opening Dark Force if you're too slow).

BR actually open with Tidal Wave ^^. Other than that YEAH I was low on money after buying Honey Drinks, Poto Oils and Angel's Grai before coming to Mana Holyland, after beating BR I had 8000 left, so could have go buy some more Angel's Grail, but I honnestly didn't want to do backtracking, I actually retry Dragon Emperor afterward if you make sure to keep the Mind Up and your HP to the max it's mostly fine actually, some attacks really hit hard but thankfully most of the time he does give enough time to heal and Mind Up again, if not Mind Up then when he hit a weakness that's when one shot can happen, the worst ennemies is actually the lags cause by the text boxes that sometime prevent you to do anything.

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Alright fellow boardsmen, I'm finally starting my game today, I'm going with Light Duran, Angela, Dark Hawk (substituted for Dark Carlie for extra physical damage). I'll split the team into two at the first class change and go Light Angela -> Grand Divina with one and Dark Angela -> Rune Master with the other. One of my goals is to play out this status/reflect thing and determine whether Sleep Flower (no damage, light status) or Petrify/Snowman (heavy damage, heavy status) is more useful. Apart from status/reflect, Grand Divina and Rune Master both seem like competent teammates for Light Duran and Dark Hawk, so I think this will be a fun game.

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I got the mana collection on the switch and was...more than disappointed that none of the bugs were fixed which prompted me to go on the hunt for the rom heh. Came across the sin of mana and have been loving it so far. Struggling with a party I want to try though after all of the research on the mod itself.  So far I really want to run a Dervish. Always used god hand in the base game, looking for something different.  Trying my best to avoid angela and charlotte, which limits my options a decent bit.  At first I was thinking Lord(or Paladin maybe)/Starlancer as partners for my Dervish run, though I'm wondering how much one would miss the stat debuffs aside what the dervish gets. Any suggestions?

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