Barnacle_Ed

Character/Job Party Recommendations

518 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

For a physical team I think there is really only 2 bosses that need anti magic which are Lugar cause he resist physical and Earth God Beast to exploit his weakness, physical team's worst ennemies however for me is the Fire God Beast to destroy the furnace in the back don't hesitate to stock Ice coins and Undine statues for this one.

It's been a long time since I played but from what I remember in that fight that to get rid of the furnace you would need to use gnome magic moreso than undine.

 

Xan Bie and the furnace have different weaknesses, one to undine, other to gnome.

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24 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I'm pretty sure the furnace has no weakness at all - you may just have fought the boss on gnome day.

 

Oh ok I see, that makes sense.

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Ok in the end I picked Hawk, Lise and Carlie. I think I will go with the more classic Ninja Mastet/Star Lancer/Bishop but we shall see.

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Ok now that I finished Lise/Hawk storyline with the Ninja Master/Starlancer/Bishop team, time to go for the Dark Lich next. I might go with Warrior Monk, Dragon Master, Bishop.

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Just finished my first play through with this mod!  I let a randomizer decide my characters and classes which felt like a mistake the further I got into the game.

 

Finished with 

Carlie: Bishop

Duran: Duelist

Lise: Dragon Master

Obviously I had a lot of overlapping skills there, and I felt pretty lacking in a lot of situations.  I want to do another playthrough with the 3 characters I did not play. Kevin, Angel and Hawk.  I was looking for some recommendations on class set up with these 3.

Edited by maximus

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Hmm this is quite a tough team to do here, I'm gonna put my idea but might definitly not be optimal :

Gran Divina, God Hand, Ninja Master

Begin of the game shouldn't be to hard thanks to Kevin and Hawk being heavy hitter. 

After the first class change :

-Kevin being Monk means you get Heal Light don't make him healer tough, this is just merely to beneficiate from Heal Light passive of healing your all team after the victorious fight so I'd advise still focusing Kevin as a heavy hitter and relying on item to heal (could use Sage Stone and Whitelight Ring to pull off some instant Power Up during mob fight, but sadly Power Up don't came until Salamando and at this point you should be close to get the second class change so not worth wasting your money on that).

-Hawk being a Ninja grab Whitelight Ring for him to make Shuriken MT, focus on Agility and PIE and just use to him to help Angela cleaning the areas with Shuriken, use Jutsu's debuff on bosses.

-Angela as Sorceress is a big help for Mid game, this is the only middle class that get all elements so she can easily exploit weakness to nuke mobs, after Bucca Island go grab a Magatama at the secret shop at Sultan, the Curse Upgrade of the Magatama is awesome for mob fight and thanks to Evil Gate the sorceress is the only middle class that can use it.

After the second class change :

-Kevin as a God Hand : I suggest grab him the Invert Armor this way you'll get Mind Up through Mind Down (need also the Whitelight Ring you can take it from Hawk since he no longer needs it as a Ninja Master) and through Life Booster you'll be able to reduce bosses's Max HP, for bosses weak to Fire, Earth, Water or Air you can use a counter base strat once you get God Hand and Ninja Master's final weapons.

-Hawk as a Ninja Master : Having all debuff MT helps for mob fight, he no longer need Whitelight Ring so give it to Kevin, you can either use Hawk as a caster with his Jutsus or you can use him as a Crit user since he get the unique Detect Debuff, as mention earlier you can also do a counter base strat once he get his final weapon (and use the Fireblaze accessory with either Kevin or Hawk).

-Angela as a Gran Divina : She can still nuke stuff and take advantage of the Magatama's curse upgrade for mob fightn you'll need Whitelight Ring to make Heal Light and Tinkle Rain MT, in boss fight she will be your main support by healing with Heal Light, buffing with Speed Up and once you get her Final Weapon she can set the Sabers's buff on your team.

Now the issue with this team is you don't get Protect Up, this a hard buff to get with these 3 character as only Dervish with Invert Armor can get it, so for this I suggest grinding or buying Bulette's Scales, this team also lack Anti-Magic but this isn't as important except for Earth God Beast (and Archdemon if you take Hawk as the main character to cancel his full buff through Dragon's Eye) so you shoudn't more 4-5 Specter's Eyes.

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Kevin, Hawk, and Angela should be an interesting team; two dual hitters and the most powerful caster means a lot of damage potential. The team Nesouk suggested should be quite powerful (I am playing a similar team at the moment with Dragon Master instead of God Hand). Here are two alternatives:

1) Warrior Monk, Wanderer, Grand Divina

This team should play similar to Nesouk's team until the second class change, with Hawk playing somewhat differently; Arrows is a fast and powerful spell which costs only 5 mp compared with Shuriken's 8 mp, so Ranger can cast almost twice as much as Ninja and help pick off enemies that Angela weakens with her MT magic. Both Hawk and Kevin will also have MT level 2 techs here which should be useful for taking out groups of enemies.

After the second class change, Wanderer will be more useful than Ninja Master for spell damage: he gets spells that hit against physical defense (Arrows), magical defense (Poison Bubble), and neither (Half Vanish, empowered with his final weapon). Wanderer will also get Antimagic and a bunch of support spells including Aura Wave, Energy Ball, Lunatic, and Life Booster. Aura Wave in particular makes a few of the God Beast fights significantly easier (with the right setup, both Hawk and Kevin can reach a full tech bar in one double hit). Kevin will get Leaf Saber, instead of Moon and Saint Sabers, great for casting support (and Saint Saber would be half redundant anyways with Grand Divina's final weapon). In terms of buffs/debuffs, since Wanderer provides Mind Up, you can use invert armor on Kevin for Mind Down, Power Down, and Power Up. So, this team will be similar to Nesouk's with access to Mind Up, Mind Down, and Power Down, but not Protect Up; differently from Nesouk's, you will have access to Power Up and Speed Up instead of Protect Down, Speed Up, and Speed Down, but you can make up the Protect Down with a Fireblaze on one (or both) of your hitters. Compared to Nesouk's team, this team should perform about as well with physical damage but better with magical and general spell damage, and have access to Antimagic, Aura Wave, and both Life Booster and Lunatic. Nesouk's team's advantage would be the MT jutsus and Shuriken which should enhance MT spell damage and reduce enemy group stats without requiring a Whitelight Ring.

2) Warrior Monk, Wanderer, Rune Master

This team will be similar to the one above but trading your more powerful healer, Tinkle Rain, and Holy and Dark damage for Rune Master's level 3 status-inflicting spells and earlier access to the basic elemental sabers. MT snowman status should be a riot on this team with two dual hitters to follow it up. MT silence and ST petrify status will also be useful against tons of annoying mobs. Honestly, it's difficult for me to recommend Rune Master over Grand Divina on almost any team since Grand Divina is just so damn good. Since Rune Master is mainly geared towards mob battles, this team would not perform as well against bosses, especially with the loss of your more powerful healer and Holy and Dark damage options. But Rune Master is a really fun class to play and will make mob fights more enjoyable, especially in the second half of the game when they become more difficult.

Edited by rpschamp

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The team I suggest might be to Physical oriented admitadly, Wanderer is an interesting choice tough but in fact in my team you could replace God Hand by Warrior Monk perfectly fine I think, another team that come to mind :

-Warrior Monk, Arch Mage, Rogue

Now with Arch Mage and Rogue you have all debuff, Aura Wave and Anti Magic, and you got here arguably the best Magic Caster and the best Physical Caster (especially once they get their final weapons), also Rogue main stat being Luck (you need to increase it to 25 IIRC just to learn all his spells) he is perfect for doing statut effect through weapon and Crit Build, Warrior Monk however need to be on support bring Power Up and Mind Up and Leaf Saber for MP Substain, you lose the elemental saber tough, you could give him the Claws that make his attack rely on PIE so that he can still throw a punch when healing isn't needed.

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Wow this was a lot more detailed answer than I was expecting!  I appreciate it you two, I'm still undecided as you gave me lots of options but I guess I have until lv 18 to make my decision :).I am leaning for the first team suggested but no anti magic on a physical team does have me a bit worried... but it would leave me with a much different feeling team than my previous game which is ultimately the goal.  When I get some more time on my hands Ill let you guys know how it goes ^^.  Currently only at the first boss with first pick angela, had to run back to town to restock on candy

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Good luck with your decision! I'm starting a new team as well. Inspired to break out of Lise-dependency by the discussion above, I've decided to go with my three favorites: Hawk, Angela, and Carlie. Since this is probably the most spell-oriented group of characters in the game, I realize that running without a shield might make things difficult at times, but I'm optimistic that I can make it work. Here are some ideas I've come up with; anyone, please offer comments or suggestions of your own to help me make my decision.

- Wanderer, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman/Necromancer

With Evil Shaman, this team has the four major stat buffs/debuffs (Protect Up, Power Down, Mind Up, and Mind Down), the six major sabers (team cast only), fast damage spells in every element (multiple in most), Heal Light (on a great caster), Tinkle Rain x 2, Antimagic, Aura Wave, Transshape x 3, Life Booster, Lunatic, etc. This team would be mostly reliant on MT magical damage to blast enemies away before they can do much damage. Getting cast speed and magic power up as fast as possible will be very important; Grand Divina in particular will be great for knocking mobs all over the screen to keep them occupied once she can cast almost instantly. Once Angela gets her sabers, this team can do more melee damage for those later bosses that really need it.

Switching out Evil Shaman for Necromancer trades Protect Up for Dark Saber, which can be cast on a group of enemies while wearing Demon Neckbands to reduce melee damage by ~45%. I have not tried this strategy before and don't know whether it will work on bosses (I can see potential for the Jagan and Bigieu fights), but the benefits against random enemies alone are enticing. The question is whether Protect Up or a saber/resist strategy would be overall better for physical defense, since there are still plenty of physical spells that won't take the sabered element and would be missing the Protect Up. Necromancer also gets a better selection of elemental and non-elemental damage type than Evil Shaman. I won't lose much in terms of support spells (Antimagic, Transshape, and Lunatic are already covered), but I will trade the ever-useful MT damage/debuff spells Ghost Road and Demon Breath for Black Curse, good for bosses but not so good for teams of enemies.

- Ninja Master, Archmage, Bishop/Sage

With Bishop, this team would be more physically-oriented with two heavy melee hitters, five of the six major sabers, Power Up and Protect Down, and Ninja Master to chip away at physical defense with his final weapon and Fireblaze, a combo that just kills it against late-game bosses. I would recover Protect Up but lose Life Booster and Lunatic, and Archmage would need inversion armor for her buffs, which is not always convenient. Getting Heal Light after the first class change would be really nice, though.

As an alternative, I could bring in Sage for her final weapon that provides HP regeneration, super useful on a team full of glass cannons (except during the one or two boss fights that cancel it). I would also recover Life Booster, useful for a couple of the God Beast fights, and trade Saint Saber for Leaf Saber, useful for when I would rather wear something other than Tree Spirit Rings. Importantly, this team would have no access to Protect Up, but the amount of healing going on and the option for a saber/resist strategy may make this more bearable.

Edited by rpschamp

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I did thought of this 3 at one point and was thinking of this group :

-Nightblade, Magus, Bishop 

You get all the buff with the exception of Speed Up (which isn't as needed as Protect Up or Mind Up) without the need of invert armor (need Whitelight Ring on Magus however) and all debuff (albeit they are stuck being ST) as well as Lunatic/Deadly Weapon and Magic Shield (get access to Magic Shield + Mind Up for really good Heal Light for Bishop) and 5/6 Sabers.
Magus and Bishop combine can exploit every weakness, Magus is a solid nuker with her Final Weapon, Nightblade can either be a physical damage dealer with a Tech User build (having access to a good FST and Dual Hitting) or a caster thanks to Black Rain being quite powerfull (and able to set Curse), he can also set Poison and Silence which has it use, Bishop can also get physical with her final weapon if ever needed, also Death Spell can be usefull.
The team really only lack Anti Magic, but again it really isn't that needed outside of 2 or 3 bosses.

Also could do this :

-Rogue, Arch Mage, Bishop

This team would be caster heavy with Rogue being a powerfull physical caster and Arch Mage magical caster.
The team get all debuff with Rogue (Crescent Missile, Landmine) and Arch Mage, Rogue's Speed Up to reduce the casttime and thanks to Bishop's Magic Shield you also get the Defensive part of Mind Up and can still use the Saber + Element Resistance gear combo if needed.
Get also the Sabers safe from Dark Saber, HP Down with Rogue's Deadly Weapon and thanks to a big emphasis on Luck Rogue is also good to set Statut Effect through weapon and Anti Magic with Arch Mage. Rogue and Bishop can also be turn to physical damage dealer later on.

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Thanks for your suggestions. Regarding your first team, I think Nightblade vs. Ninja Master is really just a matter of style. Both have unique things to offer: Nightblade gets Black Rain (really powerful with spell level armor, especially for its low MP cost), Blow Needles, and a final weapon that is actually pretty good in a couple of boss fights where you're trapped at low HP. Ninja Master on the other hand gets those group jutsu debuffs for groups of enemies (MT Power Down and Mind Down would be quite useful for this team) and his final weapon/Fireblaze stackable physical defense shred for bosses, particularly those with maxed out magical defense that a magic-focus team would otherwise find difficult to damage. As for Magus vs. Archmage, I guess it depends on whether you think the Antimagic and Aura Wave are worth the times you need wear inversion armor for Mind Up and Power Up. For me, they are. Antimagic, necessary for some bosses, has more uses than you think once you can cast it without wasting a Specter's Eye (even the gauge cancel is useful against tech-heavy enemies), and Aura Wave is really helpful during a couple of the tech-dependent boss fights (Dolan, Mispolm) and those where you want to go for extra tech damage (Xan Bie, Zable Fahr). Apart from not needing the inversion armor for her buffs, Magus does not seem to offer much over Archmage, and loses Holy damage as well. Maybe one problem is that I'm typically underlevelled and hardly ever get to use Deathspell. Also, I lose light Angela's useful elemental spread during the early game.

For your second team, Rogue/Archmage is always a fun combo. His level 3 tech is aesthetically my favorite in the game (different colors every time!) and his physical damage options are easy and powerful. Ninja Master has his advantages, but I will think more on this; it may be time to give Rogue another shot with this magic-focus team, especially if I'm not as dependent on that final weapon/Fireblaze combo. Speed Up is great too.

In general, I am not as in love with Bishop as the rest of this forum. She only gets one element to cast and her final weapon is really not that much better than her agility-based weapon if you keep up with that stat. Magic Shield is okay but usually I would go for Protect Up (which she already has), Mind Up, Tree Spirit Rings, and Magic Walnuts anyways, so it's never much of a draw. I have played both Bishop and Sage, and Sage just has so much more I can use: her final weapon with it's passive group regeneration (twice as powerful as Mad Beast Fang, and without using three accessory slots) by itself is worth the price of admission, but she also gets Mind Up and Holy and Dark MT level 2 spells, always useful for a magic-focus team, as well as Life Booster and Leaf Saber. And again, I rarely get to use Turn Undead because of the level requirement. Her major draw for this team is Protect Up, especially since I otherwise have access to Mind Up.

Decisions, decisions....

Edited by rpschamp

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13 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

For me, they are. Antimagic, necessary for some bosses, has more uses than you think once you can cast it without wasting a Specter's Eye (even the gauge cancel is useful against tech-heavy enemies)

Sorry to disappoint you but enemies don't build tech bars, they treat them as spells and use them whenever they feel like it.

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I was just in the process of adding a comment to check with you on that, thanks for the correction. Still, if you don't want to rely on the physical immunity-bypass weapons or the spell level armor, being able to cast Antimagic during random battles is a useful option to break immunities, and it can be used to cancel sabers or most buffs bosses cast on themselves.

Two questions while you're here, Praetarius: 

1) Does Antimagic cancel Mispolm's self-status reflection spells like Stone Cloud?

2) Can sabers be cast on any boss for a saber/resist strategy, in particular the Jagan team, Bigieu, DSK, or the Black Rabite?

Edited by rpschamp

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21 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

1) Does Antimagic cancel Mispolm's self-status reflection spells like Stone Cloud?

Yes but that is not a specific effect of anti-magic; that reflection works with the last spell that was cast on the boss - technically that is a vanilla bug I abused here, regular attacks are not supposed to be reflected but I enabled that, reflected "damage" is handled based on the last spell used on the original target; for spells that works fine since the reflected spell is obviously the last used spell, for regular attacks this is naturally not the case since there is not spell involved.
That whole process also works for you if you e.g. use thorn armor or the curse effect.

If you dare you can combine thorn armor, a petrify immunity ring and a stone cloud cast on your party to have most enemies commit suicide by "reflected" petrification.

21 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

2) Can sabers be cast on any boss for a saber/resist strategy, in particular the Jagan team, Bigieu, DSK, or the Black Rabite?

You can - though if you should is another matter; sabers still boost the damage of spells of their element so it may be more of a detriment depending on the boss.

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Honnestly for me the only fights were Anti-Magic is usefull are :

-Lugar : If you have a physical heavy team then yeah Anti Magic will be usefull, you can do it without Anti Magic just fine it just make it longer.
-Earth God Beast : Pretty much the only boss were it is truly mandatory in order to exploit his weakness and kill him before his defense became to high.
-Archdemon : Very usefull for the first phase to cancel his Dragon's Eye buff (unless you have Necromancer's Black Curse)

Otherwise Anti-Magic isn't needed, for mobs you really should have a team that can deal some form of Magical Damage, or you can deal with them with Spike Armor or curse upgrade, even my man power team (Paladin, Nightblade, Death Hand) had some magical damage with Nightblade's spell and late game Paladin's Turn Undead.
So considering how little use I have for Anti-Magic it's not a huge lost for me to not have someone that can cast it.

As for Aura Wave, it can be good if you have a tech heavy user who doesn't have Aura Wave already, then again in the case of Angela, Hawk and Carlie team Hawk + Triple Tech Point Weapon + Mistscreen Charm in any class already get up to 8 point per attack due to dual wielding which is more than enough for the god beast which require LV2/3 tech.

Arch Mage VS Magus is really a matter of style to, but in the case where you already have a debuffer like Dark Hawk already I don't really see a reason for picking Arch Mage, considering Invert Armor have low defense, Angela being already frail and with Hawk and Carlie you don't get a Shield user to back her up I'd rather take Magus, Magus also has better AoE cleaning potential thanks to her Final Weapon and higher INT (also don't need to focus on PIE for Magus so you should max her INT and AGI earlier), lack of Holy Damage in this case is compensate by Light Carlie, Arch Mage is undeniably better on bosses that have a weakness tough.

As for Ninja Master/Nightblade I'm honnestly fairly convince that as an all Ninja Master is the better class, heck it's one of my favorite class in the game purely and simply, Ninja Master is both effective and very straightforward to use, I honnestly propose a team with Nightblade for diversity altough Nightblade is pretty damn good to, must tough that I'm not really convince on Nightblade's final weapon, much like Death Hand on paper their final weapon seems good for tech user but then you realise they are base on gimmick that in the end isn't really effective compare to just stick with the Triple Tech Weapon to get the LV3 tech faster.

As for Bishop in general I honnestly don't use her Final Weapon and Stick to the Weapon that boost Heal Light, Magic Shield for me is a really good spell which I think is quite underrated on this forum, setting both Def Up and the Defensive Mind Up at the same time has it's advantage, like if one of your character die after ressurecting him, instead of casting both Protect Up and Mind Up to rebuff them just cast Magic Shield and you're good to go, same if an ennemy use Anti-Magic on one of your character, also the boosting heal light power stack with Mind Up which make Heal Light really powerfull as a result, really good counter against Lightgazer's gimmick, good also for undead type ennemies and for healing in general, on top of that 4/5 of her sabers are MT naturally so unlike Sage there's no reason to use a Whitelight Ring which free an accessory slot, admitadly Turn Undead is pretty much useless so are Sage's Life Booster (suprinsingly never that buff usefull enough to bother with it) and Rainbow Dust, Leaf Saber is great for sage but then you can do the same set up I did with Paladin using the accessory that make you cast with HP instead of MP, this accessory is just great allow to cast pretty much non-stop, make Heal Light basically completly free of charge, and the down effect is quickly compensate when you start investing in AGI and equipment that reduce cast time. I don't deny that Sage is also very good AoE passive healing is good, Leaf Saber is good, being able to cast both Light and Dark spell is usefull to, but in the end both Bishop and Sage are good on their own right and I feel which one you choose vastly depend on play style and team composition.

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5 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:
6 hours ago, rpschamp said:

1) Does Antimagic cancel Mispolm's self-status reflection spells like Stone Cloud?

Yes but that is not a specific effect of anti-magic; that reflection works with the last spell that was cast on the boss - technically that is a vanilla bug I abused here, regular attacks are not supposed to be reflected but I enabled that, reflected "damage" is handled based on the last spell used on the original target; for spells that works fine since the reflected spell is obviously the last used spell, for regular attacks this is naturally not the case since there is not spell involved.
That whole process also works for you if you e.g. use thorn armor or the curse effect.

Thank you for the details on the mechanics (and one less use for Antimagic!). The Rune Master is such an awesomely weird class! I assume this status/reflect strategy does not work for techs since those should work as spells. In general, the saber/resist strategy seems safer since it can't be cancelled by techs/spells, as long as you are careful about who to cast it on.

5 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Turn Undead is pretty much useless so are Sage's Life Booster (suprinsingly never that buff usefull enough to bother with it) and Rainbow Dust

Life Booster is good for deathless players like myself who prefer not to wear HP armor against every boss (those deathless weapons are pretty damn nice), and it works well with passive heal. In fact, adding 20% to your HP should in the worst case be almost as good as a 25% physical defense buff, but in most cases better since those extra HP also cover magical damage; add in passive healing, and it's pretty much better in all cases since those extra HP keep getting refilled. It's also GREAT against Xan Bie: it raises the 100 HP low ceiling to 120 and saves a few deaths. Rainbow Dust though is not often a good option due to enemy resists and I'd gladly see her trade it for Aura Wave (maybe in the next update, Praetarius? (~wishful thinking~)).

5 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Magic Shield for me is a really good spell which I think is quite underrated on this forum, setting both Def Up and the Defensive Mind Up at the same time has it's advantage, like if one of your character die after ressurecting him, instead of casting both Protect Up and Mind Up to rebuff them just cast Magic Shield and you're good to go, same if an ennemy use Anti-Magic on one of your character, also the boosting heal light power stack with Mind Up which make Heal Light really powerfull as a result

I never realized that Magic Shield stacked with Mind Up for heal power buff. I can see now that Bishop has several great defensive options with both Protect Up and Magic Shield.

5 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Honnestly for me the only fights were Anti-Magic is usefull are :

-Lugar : If you have a physical heavy team then yeah Anti Magic will be usefull, you can do it without Anti Magic just fine it just make it longer.
-Earth God Beast : Pretty much the only boss were it is truly mandatory in order to exploit his weakness and kill him before his defense became to high.
-Archdemon : Very usefull for the first phase to cancel his Dragon's Eye buff (unless you have Necromancer's Black Curse)

Otherwise Anti-Magic isn't needed, for mobs you really should have a team that can deal some form of Magical Damage, or you can deal with them with Spike Armor or curse upgrade, even my man power team (Paladin, Nightblade, Death Hand) had some magical damage with Nightblade's spell and late game Paladin's Turn Undead.
So considering how little use I have for Anti-Magic it's not a huge lost for me to not have someone that can cast it.

As for Aura Wave, it can be good if you have a tech heavy user who doesn't have Aura Wave already, then again in the case of Angela, Hawk and Carlie team Hawk + Triple Tech Point Weapon + Mistscreen Charm in any class already get up to 8 point per attack due to dual wielding which is more than enough for the god beast which require LV2/3 tech.

Your points are well taken here. Really, a magic-oriented team should be able to get by with just Specter's Eyes; I don't even like to waste one on Lugar when I have Angela around to bomb him to death. I do like being able to cancel saber spells and such during random fights but it's by no means necessary. And Aura Wave has limited necessity since level 2 techs work just as well as level 3 techs for Dolan and Mispolm, as long as you're willing to spend your money on those 3 tech-point weapons.

And so....

Based on this vibrant discussion (thank you Praetarius and Nesouk!) I'm down to four teams, listed from light to dark:

1) Wanderer, Grand Divina, Necromancer/Evil Shaman

A fast-casting team particularly strong in support spells and controlling the pace of battle; Grand Divina casts damage spells instantly, and Transshape should be useful in avoiding melee damage. Evil Shaman seems the more reliable defensive option with Protect Up and MT stat debuffs, but Necromancer adds a saber/resist strategy and damage options in neutral element magical, physical, and HP-based damage.

2) Rogue, Archmage, Bishop

A strong-casting team that does not rely as much on spell-power buffs. Here, I agree that the Bishop's reliable defensive options outweigh the need for extra elemental diversity since Archmage and Rogue are such strong, diverse casters. No Mind Up, but the final weapons for Archmage and Rogue make up for that for everyday fights, and scales can be used for boss fights.

3) Ninja Master, Rune Master, Sage

The strongest team in terms of status effects; random enemy battles should be a lot of fun. No Protect Up, but Ninja Master's MT Water Jutsu and Sage's passive heal should make up for it during random battles, and Life Booster will be even more help during boss fights. Both saber/resist and status/reflect strategies available. Sage's Holy and Dark spells help Rune Master and Ninja Master with elemental diversity. Needs Specter's Eyes.

4) Nightblade, Magus, Bishop

A team strong in the fundamentals with almost all buffs/debuffs and strong, straight-forward options for both magical and physical damage. Magus's 25% bonus for MT spells will be great for random battles, and damage type diversity and defensive options mean no problem for boss fights. Nightblade can wear spell level armor to pump out a neutral level 3 Black Rain with the 25% bonus for MT-always spells (for 8 mp and optional Curse upgrade!) to wreak havoc alongside Magus. The more I think about this team, the more I like it. Needs Specter's Eyes.

No invert armor for any of these teams; I agree that it limits the wearer and takes some of the fun out of the game. This is especially important for groups that have no access to Protect Up. It's also a sign of great design to see every final class represented in these four options. It would be fun to dive into each of these and work out the most important considerations for Hawk/Angela/Carlie. If I have to take one though, I'm leaning towards 3) or 4).

Edited by rpschamp

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33 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

Life Booster is good for deathless players like myself who prefer not to wear HP armor against every boss (those deathless weapons are pretty damn nice), and it works well with passive heal. In fact, adding 20% to your HP should in the worst case be almost as good as a 25% physical defense buff, but in most cases better since those extra HP also cover magical damage; add in passive healing, and it's pretty much better in all cases since those extra HP keep getting refilled. It's also GREAT against Xan Bie: it raises the 100 HP low ceiling to 120 and saves a few deaths. Rainbow Dust though is not often a good option due to enemy resists and I'd gladly see her trade it for Aura Wave (maybe in the next update, Praetarius? (~wishful thinking~)).

Actually I found over the course of my multiple playthrough (all on Hard) that I overestimate the HP Armor, they are actually never mandatory even on Hard due to their poor defense, actually I found that for bosses the armors that stand out for me are :

-The second armor of the game : Actually have the best overall defense until you reach the Pedan armor (the Armors at Dwarf Village have an higher Physical Defense but lower Magical Defense, and the undead armor has the best defense but their negative effect is annoying) and give a small increase to Heal Light and Items which is always nice.
-Spike Armor : If you don't have Curse Upgrade, this armor just straight up cheese Bigieu and Black Rabite making them take 999 damage every hit they land on you ^^ 
-The Armors the allow to cheat death : If like myself you like to use the accessory which make you consume HP instead of MP, this armors allow you to basically use your otherwise useless MP to survive what would be otherwise a fatal hit, even if you aren't in that case this armor is just extremely 15MP is nothing when you have a stock of Magic Walnut and MP Absorption.
-The Armors that remove weaknesses : Obviously this is usefull especially early game some boss can really wipe the floor with any character they can exploit a weakness (Tzenker against Dark Kevin/Dark Angela/Hawk, Genova against Light Kevin/Dark Carlie/Duran or Gorva against Light Angela/Dark Duran/Lise...etc...) in which case these armor is probably your best shot at survive, they are also very usefull against Archdemon's first phase to prevent his Anti Magic to makes you weak against every element.

Then you have some more character/classes specific armor :

-Armors that increases damage from spells : Obviously good for offensive caster mainly Angela and Carlie.
-Armor that increase spell's level and make them neutral : Make spell cast usefull for boss that resist everything (Dolan) or doesn't have weakness again good for Angela and Carlie.

I'm honnestly just not convince on Life Booster, for me the defensive buffs are just more important, maybe I should try harder with it.

Regarding Aura Wave it also happen that some of the best class for Tech user build (namely Duelist and Death Hand) already have it ^^.

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One set to add to your required armor list: the deny counterattack armors, first version found at the Dwarf Village. These are extremely useful for casters against bosses that counter spells a lot, especially Bill & Ben, the Machine Golems, Lugar, and even Jewel Eater and Gildervine (phase 2).

Plus, those physical defense armors are obviously a good bet for much of the early game when there are no attacks that hit against magical defense, especially for shield bearers (they can take the brunt of Bill & Ben's counters, for instance).

Edited by rpschamp

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Life Booster is certainly not as useful as Protect Up for random fights since it's only ST. Definitely useful for the God Beasts though when you want to invest more time buffing for a longer battle.

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I wonder however does anyone found a good team for Swordmaster ? Or my question should be more if going Dark with Duran is there any reason to pick Swordmaster over Duelist ? Cause I mean Speed Up and Energy Ball are nice, but on the other hand Duelist has Aura Wave and Anti Magic which makes him more valuable already, the only thing Swordmaster has over Duelist are Saint Saber and Moon Saber not sure if that is worth trading Aura Wave, Anti Magic and Duelist's higher damage potential with his LV3 Tech. Well I was thinking of some team :

-Swordmaster, Sage, Vanadis

Here Swordmaster interest is that he free Sage from the Sabers duty allowing Sage to not needing Whitelight Ring he also can ehance Sage's Magical damage with Saint and Dark Saber which Sage doesn't have (I actually think for these reason Sage is a good pair with Swordmaster). Vanadis with Invert Armor can be the debuffer since Sage act as an healer this free Vanadis from support role allowing her to have a more offensive role, thanks to Swordmaster having all Saber we can use Vanadis's Final Weapon effect to it's fullest and exploit any weakness with Freya.

Replacing Vanadis by Star Lancer is an option, losing the effect of Freya but you get the fastest caster in the game, Aura Wave and a more usefull summon overall.

-Swordmaster, Warrior Monk, Arch Mage

Needless to say Arch Mage enjoy the Sabers from Swordmaster to boost her spells, while Swordmaster enjoy her Aura Wave, Warrior Monk act as the main healer and bring Power Up and Mind Up the only buff lacking is again Protect Up. Arch Mage has Power Down and Mind Down so that's taken care of as well as Aura Wave and Anti Magic and strong magical damage.

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I agree that in general Duelist is better than Swordmaster, if only because of Eruption Sword. Maybe an advantage for Swordmaster could be brought out with his final weapon? I would suggest trying:

Swordmaster, Ninja Master, Vanadis

Vanadis should have stats allocated to maximize her cast speed and magical damage, since your other two won't provide any. Swordmaster and Ninja Master should be built for critical hits. Basically just spam sabered Freyas and jutsus/shurikens for random enemies while Duran keeps them occupied with melee and shields. For bosses, stat buff/debuff and crit buff/debuff should be at maximum potential, and Ninja Master goes to work with Fireblaze. This team could pull off a lot of damage if used correctly.

Also, I was thinking of a simpler status/reflect combo that many teams could use: cast Sleep Flower on your whole team with reflect armor and Wind God Bracelets. This way you don't take any damage from Angela's level 3 spells, and everytime an enemy hits anyone, it falls asleep, until another spell targets you. Body Change might work as well, but then you lose the experience; plus the enemies should change back if they hit you again. You may not even really need the bracelets for this since only the initial spell should put you to sleep. I don't have a group that can try this at the moment, but someone who does should be able to confirm whether this works.

Does anyone know what determines the duration of Sleep Flower?

Edited by rpschamp

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To finish with this Hawk, Angela, Carlie team discussion: I've decided to go with light Angela and dark Carlie to unlock this team's full nuke potential. Angela can do massive damage in many elements no matter what path she chooses, but Carlie has much more spell damage diversity when she goes dark. This leaves me with Grand Divina for Heal Light, which is my favorite Angela class, so no problem there. So, my team choices depend on which path I choose for Hawk:

Team 1): Light Hawk -> Wanderer, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman (or Necromancer)

Team 2): Dark Hawk -> Ninja Master, Grand Divina, Necromancer

Team 1) will be dependent on Whitelight Rings for MT Mind Up and MT Protect Up, while Team 2) will be dependent on Carlie's invert armor to use Black Curse for stat buffs. Given this, Team 1) seems the better overall choice, since sacrificing an accessory slot on both Hawk and Carlie should be less important than sacrificing an armor slot on Carlie. Team 1) will also have access to a bunch of support spells (Antimagic, Aura Wave, Lunatic, Life Booster) that will decrease its dependency on found items; it's missing stat buffs/debuffs (Power Up, Protect Down, Speed Down) can be recovered through items purchased at Byzel and Deen (Drake's Scales, Bottles of Ashes). Team 1) could substitute Necromancer for Evil Shaman to gain a saber/resist option and better damage spell diversity, but it would lose its easy defensive options in Evil Shaman's Protect Up and MT Power/Mind Down spells.

I'm also looking forward to testing the status/reflect phenomenon discussed above with MT Sleep Flower and reflect armor; I suppose it depends on whether the damage or the sleep status is applied first (damage applied after sleep should immediately wake the sleep-afflicted enemy, while sleep applied after damage should leave them snoozing).

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Could also do Wanderer, Gran Divina, Necromancer lose the Protect Up but you still have Mind Up and don't need an Invert Armor on Necromancer, Necromancer has also better offensive spell especially with Black Rain.

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