JohnFuklaw

Some thoughts on Stamina builds

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I recently played around with Stamina builds on every character in BNW after I discovered that everybody has at least 1 Stamina boosting esper, and I had some ideas for improving Stamina-based builds that I'd like to throw out here.

First off, I think the most recent patch making Counter and Cover go off Stamina to determine their proc rate is absolutely genius, and C/C builds have been some of my favorites since then and I love having a useful purpose for Stamina other than just being a third "damage stat" for niche builds.

I think there should be an event in the WoR that becomes accessible once you have Relm and Shadow (and maybe Strago) that switches Interceptor over to Relm. My logic is that Shadow can easily get sky-high physical evasion and that between that and Image-spam he should almost never be getting hit, and therefore never proccing Interceptor, while Relm otoh still gets hit plenty and could really use an extra use for her Stamina since she has access to a +2 Stamina esper. Alternatively, being able to trigger an event to switch Interceptor back and forth between them could work too, or maybe even a Relm-exclusive relic that let's her use Interceptor.

On the subject of Relm, if her paintbrushes healed with Stamina that could give it some extra utility too; with stam-heals, regen-x, interceptor, and Stamina-based sketches I think Stam Relm could finally become a widely used build.

Strago, Edgar, and Sabin all come really close of having good Stamina builds imo but just fall short of where they should be. Sabin's main shortcoming in this department is that his Stam build would need both relic slots for covering and countering, and with his low defense I don't think this makes him very appealing as a tank, so maybe a unique piece of equipment that gives cover or counter to him? I kind of like the idea of claws having inherent counter, making him more like the monk from FF5, but since all of his claws are elemental that would probably be awful in practice, since he'd counter enemies with elements that they negate/absorb all the time. Edgar's Stam build is nearly great, being really beefy and still being a great status setter, even if he loses out on damage, but his low starting Stamina and poor damage options outside of the Omega Weapon hinder him here I think. It'd be good if he started with 30 or 36 Stamina instead of 24, which would not only make him cover and counter more but also let him invest some into another esper on his tank build to give it some more side benefits rather than demanding every EL be invested into Unicorn to make up for his low Stamina, and/or the Gungnir getting its "strong vs floating enemies" property back, giving him stronger counter-attacks. Since that property wouldn't proc on jumps it would also make it more solid in its role as a "tank weapon" instead of a "damage-dealer weapon". Then there's Strago, whom I really want to have a great stamina build, but I just don't think rod counters on such a flimsy character and a strong Odin summon are enough. I'm not sure what to recommend to buff it on Strago though, maybe have it somehow make Holy Wind or Raid stronger?

Mog's Stam build is pretty good I think, I like having a sturdy tank that'll counter with rod spell-crits, but I think it'd be even better if he could dance and C/C at the same time, which would allow him to use one of his dances with a lot of Stamina-based healing while still covering and countering, otherwise he needs the Moogle Charm if he wants to dance AND cover, which locks him out of countering. I think losing the ability to control his dancing in exchange for the ability to counter would be a fair trade-off and would effectively give you two major ways to play Stamina Mog. Besides, its a shame he can't really use his dances on a C/C build as of now since there's synergy with his high Stamina on it.

On pretty much everyone else, I've found their Stamina builds to be pretty solid (esp. Terra and Cyan), so it's really just those five that I think need to be improved upon a little (or a lot in Relm's case).

Does anyone else have any ideas? I like the idea of Stamina being less niche and would love to see it have a stronger place in any future patches.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, JohnFuklaw said:

I think losing the ability to control his dancing in exchange for the ability to counter would be a fair trade-off and would effectively give you two major ways to play Stamina Mog. Besides, its a shame he can't really use his dances on a C/C build as of now since there's synergy with his high Stamina on it.

Losing control during his dance isn't much of a loss.  If you have him do a frequent healing dance with the ability to C/C, he'll be a monster, and something of a bore cause there'd be little reason to do any other build.

Edited by SuperHario
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Posted (edited)

It's late at night, but I know I won't fall asleep without responding to a balance discussion of BNW, so I'll be brief.

Spoiler

 

In general, for stamina, I'd like to see it take up the primary role in guarding against statuses and de-emphasize the role of status immunities. Status evasion is fairly unreliable without serious stacking of stamina (so, endgame only), and also somewhat questionable when half of the statuses in the game flat out take away control or act as a pseudo-instant death (so why bother with the rng when immunities are right there). Course, this would require changing how stamina guards against statuses to be more reliable at various points in the game, though stamina builds would obviously get the biggest benefit. I'm not sure if this is theoretically possible with how FFVI is programmed though.

Cover and Counter are probably some of the best uses for stamina right now. Probably the best of all the uses that aren't "stamina-based damage" in some form or fashion.

For Terra, I'm kinda concerned that stam Terra interferes too much into vig Terra's niche. Certainly if stamina had better general-use than Omega wouldn't need to be so powerful to insure that stam Terra & Locke could function properly. Though Kirin Locke, with Cover, Counter, and Valiance, probably doesn't need Omega quite as much as Terra does. Course, I'm still running off of memory of damage numbers instead of actual play experience here, as I haven't played lots of BNW since....what, 1.6 or 1.7 or something? Unlike earlier, where I played multiple runs on each version, >_>. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

For Edgar, I'll support Dummy's suggestion of giving +stamina to spears. Otherwise, no clue. Best guess it to avoid a pure Unicorn Edgar, and to rather simply build him as more of a bulky mag Edgar. Trading some spd/mag for better front-row bulk, so that he's Covering as well as doing support. Dunno if its a good idea to have your Revive / Cure / Battery dude also running Cover tanking though, seems anti-synergistic, so, uh.....???

For Sabin, Chakra is still his main use, so I suspect how good he is comes down to how much Chakra is needed. X-Mog certainly needs help, as does X-Locke if the player is going heavy X-Fire3 (probably not very common). Terra & Celes like the help for most the WoR, but suddenly become more self-sufficient with a Box comes Kefka's Tower, so Chakra is suddenly out of the job a bit. Relm & Strago like the help, especially at lower levels or with lower MP builds (something, something, out of a job by Kefka's), but don't necessarily need it thanks to Osmose / Raid. Setzer doesn't care. Shadow only needs it with Rerise spam.

IMO (others disagree), magic use is somewhat weighted towards self-sufficiency in magic, especially come endgame, even though Chakra isn't learned until closer to endgame (lvl.25). One thought I had for counter-weighing this was to look at buffing X-Mog and X-Strago. Strago's Dark could get a BPow buff but also a dramatic spike in MP cost, giving Strago a real upper-tier dps move in X-Dark but highly encouraging MP support to leverage. X-Mog just needs a buff somehow or another (Quake or another quirky mechanic? I believe there's some leftover Mog discussion in the character sub-forums). That way, at least Sabin's always got the X-Mages to support, and who knows, maybe will all 3 X-Mages being very serious builds, people might consider running multiple Sage Stone users. Otherwise, only other option is stuff like learning Chakra slightly earlier (usable longer), reducing Box MP reduction to 2/3 or 3/4 (ahahaha, yeah right), or somehow making Setzer, Gau, and Shadow (or others?) care more about MP (how??).

Otherwise, my suggestions are same: Air Blade is now stamina-based, 36 BPow, defense-ignoring, don't care if its split loss or single target. Fire Dance could also be stamina-based but with a severely nerfed BPow. Mantra....needs something.

stam Sabin's got the tools. He doesn't need to also be a C/C user (leave that for Terrato Sabin). It's just his tools only really pull themselves together on people who like to run lots of MP gluttons, which I'm guessing? (correct me if I'm wrong) is less common then you might expect from an RPG? Maybe I really am talking out of my butt though.

For Gau, I'm still unsure on his stamina build (spd Harvester is nice), but I'll drop this discussion right now.

For Mog, I'm inclined to like your suggestion, but without having played enough of 1.9 (maybe I shouldn't have done NHT), I'll let others comment. Have other ideas on stam Mog, but I don't think they mean anything without better use for stamina.

For Strago, my idea is what it was years ago: just change Odin into an HP/Stam esper. HP+15 to avoid being overpowered. Strago's got plenty of stamina to still be a walking Ribbon. Perhaps just as importantly, HP Odin gotten lategame can still have some use milked out of him on Strago's all ready built for mag/MP, whereas the current Odin requires either respec or going Ancient Castle early to build properly. Also, more HP actually synergizes with Holy Wind properly. Last, but not least, HP is undeniably useful, even in small amounts, while stam Strago is...questionable. If HP ain't happenin', only thought I have besides "make stamina more generally useful" is to have Holy Wind take stamina into account (stamina-based heal, yo).

For Relm, one idea is to have Interceptor's dodge chance be based off of stamina instead of a static 50% 2nd dodge chance. Only other idea I had was for Relm to have a stam% chance to Brush Heal an ally whose struck, instead of Covering them (so, Brush Cover, >_>). I doubt it's feasible to program though. Otherwise, I have no idea, besides, "make stamina more generally useful." At least stam Relm does have a niche use (Black Heart + RegenX), unlike stam Strago.

 

It's far from my worst, but my brief is still other people's dissertations.

Edited by thzfunnymzn
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Relm does get Interceptor in BNW - you just have to kill Shadow.

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Mog's Stam build is pretty good I think, I like having a sturdy tank that'll counter with rod spell-crits, but I think it'd be even better if he could dance and C/C at the same time, which would allow him to use one of his dances with a lot of Stamina-based healing while still covering and countering, otherwise he needs the Moogle Charm if he wants to dance AND cover, which locks him out of countering. I think losing the ability to control his dancing in exchange for the ability to counter would be a fair trade-off and would effectively give you two major ways to play Stamina Mog. Besides, its a shame he can't really use his dances on a C/C build as of now since there's synergy with his high Stamina on it.

As I already state in another topic I strongly disagree here if Mog could Rod C/C and Dance at the same that would be to much in my opinion and it would loss depth because in this case then this would make Maduin Build far better than Shoat build, and IMO this would loss making the player have to choose between Rod Counter or Dancing which would make Mog less interesting to play.

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Strago, Edgar, and Sabin all come really close of having good Stamina builds imo but just fall short of where they should be. Sabin's main shortcoming in this department is that his Stam build would need both relic slots for covering and countering, and with his low defense I don't think this makes him very appealing as a tank, so maybe a unique piece of equipment that gives cover or counter to him? I kind of like the idea of claws having inherent counter, making him more like the monk from FF5, but since all of his claws are elemental that would probably be awful in practice, since he'd counter enemies with elements that they negate/absorb all the time. Edgar's Stam build is nearly great, being really beefy and still being a great status setter, even if he loses out on damage, but his low starting Stamina and poor damage options outside of the Omega Weapon hinder him here I think. It'd be good if he started with 30 or 36 Stamina instead of 24, which would not only make him cover and counter more but also let him invest some into another esper on his tank build to give it some more side benefits rather than demanding every EL be invested into Unicorn to make up for his low Stamina, and/or the Gungnir getting its "strong vs floating enemies" property back, giving him stronger counter-attacks. Since that property wouldn't proc on jumps it would also make it more solid in its role as a "tank weapon" instead of a "damage-dealer weapon". Then there's Strago, whom I really want to have a great stamina build, but I just don't think rod counters on such a flimsy character and a strong Odin summon are enough. I'm not sure what to recommend to buff it on Strago though, maybe have it somehow make Holy Wind or Raid stronger?

Stam Sabin is definitly more of a support than a tank due to his low HP and Def but in my opinion it's his worst build for now as both Golem and Terrato Sabin are more tanky than Stam Sabin, but also Stam Sabin lack the cheer physical power of Golem Sabin, lack the great tankiness of Terrato Sabin and lack abilities that make this stand out, as Mantra is actually better with a Terrato build than Stam Sabin, Chakra is gotten to late to truly be usefull and outside of Aurabolt none of his offensive Blitz is stamina base.

Edgar main problem is definitly is awfull starting stamina, and having no synergy with Stamina outside of C/C and Omega Weapon, mind you stam Edgar is still a very tanky character but I wouldn't mind some of his Tools being made Stamina Base (like Mana Battery for instance) or him getting a spell like Regen.

As for Strago...... well to be honnest I'm kind of have an Hard Time imagining an Old Man such as him getting a tank build like that but my opinion and his Stam Build for me seems like the worst Stam Build of the game due to Strago being so easy to kill in the front Row (no C/C) having nothing in his abilities that go well with Stamina, and just being straight inferior to a Magic Build.

As for Relm kind of the same as Strago no C/C due to being to fragile, no offensive option with Stamina the only thing she has for her is Regen X but why would you want that when Mag Relm can get a shit load of MP, Cure 3 that cost less than Regen and give more HP back and some great offensive option with Flare and Meteor, I argue that even a full Ifrit Relm would be more usefull

 

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Stam sabin is poopy poop in my book. So is Strago. Incidentally, they both get +2 stam espers but can't make any use of it. I mean Sabin has uses, but they're bad. Chakra doesn't keep up with any heavy MP users, even when you literally use it every single turn. It works only on very niche party setups (3 casters). You can't take hits, HP and even Vigor+HP does a much better job at that. You cover/counter more often, that's the only advantage. Unless you really, really, really want a character that negates most status aliments in the game while sucking on every other department, stamina is a no go for him. Mantra isn't *that* bad, until you realize literally every other form of healing in the game is better, and that raw HP works as good if not better than Stamina for boosting it.

Strago and stam are just uh, uncompatible. Slap a Ribbon on him and enjoy doing 50 billion times more damage regardless of the wasted relic slot. His magic def is very high, he doesn't need help. Defense piercing attacks don't happen that often and when they do, chances are he won't take them even with full stamina due to low HP.

That said, every other character is fine in my book. Boosting Edgar's Stamina makes little sense to me. He can already cover so many roles excellently with just a few equip swaps. Him being also a reliable cover user while retaining his support magic, tools and good damage even without heavy vigor investment seems like pure overkill. If you really want +stam Spears, they'd have to have really, really low battle power, then you can improve his covering chances by a lot but not make him stupid strong offensively with his counters. And even then, there's stam mog with spears that covers exactly that role already, so it would be redundant.

Take Mog, if you exclude dragoon/pure magic, his role is *very* clear. He puts heavy armor on, takes hits from everything and everyone like a monster, has high chance of cover, and is good as passively supporting your party. Can slow and haste and other stuff on off turns, and if you really got nothing else to do with his turns, Dance gives you basically a 50/50 chance of fully healing your party (easily, with high stamina), which saves turn for your healer to do other stuff. Want a more offensive version? Swap spears with rods and Moogle Charm with Hero Ring. No 1-turn Dance, but at this point you'll want to attack on your off turns, not dance.

Giving him both feels unnecessary. In general, Stamina walks a fine line between "niche/not really useful" and "broken" on most characters. I'd rather have the former than the latter, especially cause Stamina's main asset is what it *doesn't* blatantly do for you. It doesn't allow status aliments to wreck you, but whenever you see that happen you don't think "it's my stamina that did that", which causes a lot of players to heavily underestimate the stat. IMO, it's a defensive stat and it still gets plenty of offensive options, making them OP or making every character good with stamina is as bad as turning everyone into a magic user like in the original.

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Take Mog, if you exclude dragoon/pure magic, his role is *very* clear. He puts heavy armor on, takes hits from everything and everyone like a monster, has high chance of cover, and is good as passively supporting your party. Can slow and haste and other stuff on off turns, and if you really got nothing else to do with his turns, Dance gives you basically a 50/50 chance of fully healing your party (easily, with high stamina), which saves turn for your healer to do other stuff. Want a more offensive version? Swap spears with rods and Moogle Charm with Hero Ring. No 1-turn Dance, but at this point you'll want to attack on your off turns, not dance.

Mog is for me the most balance character of the mod all his build are good in one way or another without being overpowered :

-Vig Mog ? Enjoy that Spear Jump boost pair with Moogle Charm for faster Jump and Dragon Helm for potential Double Jump (and C/C with spear is still an option)
-Shoat Mog ? Rod + Dragoon Seal + Moogle Charm enjoy watching doing a lot of damage with these Rod proc and Dancing for whatever is needed or equip Sage Stone and Take Benefit of his spell list
-Maduin/Terrato Mog ? Yeah for Rod's Cover/Counter or Dance for mob fight
-Terrato ? Watch at your ennemy trying to desesperatly this freaking mascot and customize him the way you want through his vast options of equipment

In other word you can't go wrong with Mog already and giving him the possibility to C/C and Dance at the same time with a Rod is unecessary ^^

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Chiming in that I am in agreement that stam Sabin is very underpowered. In my NHT run he was my most useless character. He died to everything, despite his stamina, and didn't add enough of anything to be worth rezzing. He was more of a liability than a help. In KT I pretty much just left him dead and 3-manned bosses without him. 

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So it sounds like just about everyone likes Stamina Edgar well enough already, I guess being that tanky and that good at support is good enough by itself, and being a good damage dealer on top would be overkill, but I'd still really like the Gungnir to get its "strong vs floating enemies" property back.

I also didn't consider that Stam Sabin was made for Chakra/Mantra support instead of tanking. I heard from someone that Nirvana Band doesn't boost Chakra and Mantra, so that might be something that could help it, because I also noticed neither really seemed that good. His Chakra definitely couldn't keep up with heavy MP users like X-Locke and X-Mog  and Mantra wasn't terribly impressive either, so it'd definitely be nice if they got some sort of buff, like if Stamina contributed more to the healing so Stam Sabin would be better at Mantra than HP Sabin.

As for the Interceptor thing, I don't think anyone would be willing to kill off one of the better characters in the party to enable a mostly mediocre meme build for Relm. I love the idea of her getting Interceptor but it feels more like an easter egg than an actual character option because it comes at such a high cost.

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Spoiler

 

Something to consider is that stam Sabin used to be better. Back when his stamina esper was +4, regen had absurd ticks (200+), the back row's damage reduction was stronger, Suplex didn't set Slow, fewer people were talking about elemental claws and/or Berserk strats, mag Edgar didn't exist, Setzer's Slots were still random, Gau didn't have Harvester, Mog couldn't restore his own MP, speed-stacking a support Strago for Refract-Shell-Wind use wasn't talked about, and non-magic Terra/Celes builds weren't so hot; back in these times, stam Sabin was comparatively a lot better. He was a fine tanky alternative to vig Sabin in the mid-game with back-row and Aurabolt and Mantra had significantly less competition.

The loss of absurd regen ticks and the reduction of the back row's defensive boons were probably what really killed stam Sabin. All the new fancy tools that everyone else has been getting has also helped crush him out. Meanwhile, it's only been very recently that Osmose got a nerf or that X-Mog is even considered borderline good.

Because of Sabin's poor defenses, stam Sabin is actually a Terrato Sabin that goes heavy on the Stray, rather than the other way around. So, 5, 8, maybe 10 Stray, rest in Terrato. So it's really more about that Terrato build rather than stam build.

A purely stamina-based Mantra that can possibly be boosted by the Nirvana Band (aka, Mantra now follows the normal damage formula, except being stamina-based and aborting on Sabin) is one way to boost Mantra. It'd be consistent, though stam Sabin is still frail. Problem is that the loss of Mantra's uniqueness if very ugly from a design / aesthetic perspective. An alternative is to review our other support builds and see if we haven't been overpowering other characters. Though based on Deschain's response for NHT, it sounds like stam Sabin is legit underpowered (I am so glad I chose not to use stam Sabin for NHT. Speaking of which, I need to stop playing Breath of the Wild and go conquer Mt. Zozo and clear Cyan's Soul).

Chakra's issue is that your main four mages (Terra, Celes, Strago, Relm) are all somewhat self-sufficient by endgame, whereas Chakra is only learned at lvl.25. Osmose has been nerfed, thankfully, but Terra & Celes still get a shiny Box for endgame, and Strago doesn't really chug MP as heavily as you'd think (support skills are light on MP, elemental skills aren't too bad, Black Omen is more mid-tier damage so it's probably not being spammed). So, Osmose nerf means Relm cares for MP support a little, but that's it. Your other two mages (Locke, Mog) guzzle MP, out-pacing Chakra. This really is more of a problem for Locke than for Mog. 96 MP per X-Fire3 that only does 5-6k unless its against a weakness is just too much. X-Locke is a healer, not a fighter, and the player is probably A-OK with having their healer chug Ethers when necessary. X-Mog honestly isn't too bad in terms of MP used vs Chakra. Only X-Quake truly outpaces Chakra, and only by a little, though X-Break pushes the limit. I suspect the bigger problem is that people find X-Mog unrewarding. (I still argue for reverting Break's MP back down to 18, since Terra could care less about the difference between 18 and 25, while it'd help X-Mog out somewhat. As for Quake, only options I've seen is Earth-absorbing/nulling gear to make it more usable, or my idea for non-elemental Quake with a possible BPow buff. Otherwise, someone had a suggesting in the Mog sub-forum for Mog having something like Reflect for more quirky team support stuff).

Other characters, aside from Rerise spam Shadow, don't care for MP restoration. Not even Setzer, who is technically a candidate for needing MP help but could care less. Also, and just as importantly, mag Edgar can Mana Battery as well, and for a single target, he does it significantly better than stam Sabin (100 MP restored with Nirvana boost, vs chakra's 60), while being much tankier than stam Sabin and providing actual, y'know, other utilities (AoE Flash, reliable Cure 2 with Nirvana boost, Defib revive, debuffs for Dragons). Nerfing Battery technically buffs Chakra, but not only is that not possible without a special formula for Battery, but it's still not likely to do anything so long as Chakra has few viable targets for supporting. (So...Box nerf, Strago caring more for Chakra support, buff X-Mog, maybe somehow make Setzer actually care about his MP count through, iunno, more expensive Curing magic?).

Stamina-based AoE blitzes really ought to happen, regardless. Air Blade is impossible to make useful without a major overhaul anyways (including being learned earlier). Sabin has little use for his magic, why are his Blitzes magic-based? That, and other healers tend to have decent attacks anyways (see: mag Edgar), so why is Chakra not allowed anything? Keep them as AoEs to prevent them from interfering with Suplex and Bum Rush.

Aside from that, stam Sabin's frailty is an issue. There's no real way to buff it without also buffing all other Sabin builds aside from something like giving stam Sabin absurd regen ticks or something. (So...regen scales quadratically with stamina instead of linearly? Perhaps have max HP matter less for regen ticks, so that HP ain't double dipping with regen?). Though that has potential to lead right back to the problem encountered when BNW was young. Other than that, just making stamina more generally useful would help (see my above post). Stacking evade & HP is an option, but Sabin lacks a shield and has to give up the Royal Jacket to gain Mirage Vest for mg.eva stacking. (He also has no upgrade to his Robe series for mg.def stacking, and no helmet better than the Red Cap or Tiger Mask). So...it's HP stacking, which, surprise surprise, means Terrato Sabin. OTOH, if stam Sabin spends most of his time healing, he doesn't draw counterattacks, so....uhh....yeah, big magical damage from bosses kinda laugh all over that idea, as does lots and lots of randoms with strong physicals.

Last thing I want to mention is having Sabin learn some Blitzes earlier. Mantra would be nicer earlier in the game, when you have few AoE heal options. Chakra could help Terra and Celes more if it were learned a little earlier (or if Box had a weaker MP reduction?). Oh, and Air Blade needs to be learned earlier to actually, you know, be used.

 

So, tl;dr, Mantra needs buffs and/or nerfs to other support characters, Chakra needs more viable uses, both Mantra and Chakra could be learned earlier, Fire Dance/Air Blade as stamina-based, possibly some better equipment for Sabin, most certainly more actually good universal uses for stamina (status reduction?), and possibly reminding people to not get too crazy with building stamina on Sabin.

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As to buffing Mantra, what if it set regen on Sabin?  So it gets around the drawback that it doesn’t heal him, while saving a relic slot.  Plus a mantra is a phrase repeated during meditation, so regen tics duplicate this repetition and support future use of Mantra by boosting HP.

If this is OP, maybe Sabin just gets one regen tic, but immediately prior to casting Mantra to slightly increase its effectiveness.

 

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Just chiming in to +1 the following ideas:

- +Stam on spears and/or buff Edgar's base Stam. Building him straight Stam gives him immense HP bulk, but he's just not as good at covering as many of the other good bodyguard candidates due to his lower max Stam.

- buff Stam Sabin. Giving Chakra/Mantra more oomph and having his elemental Blitzes use Stam per funnyman's suggestions both appeal to me.

- a way to get Interceptor on Relm without killing Shadow. He can barely keep the dog away from her during the Thamasa WoB story sequence, it shouldn't take killing him to have the dog help her out. I support a Relic approach to this rather than something event based, assuming this is simpler — maybe a Memento Ring Colliseum trade?

- better status resist growth from Stam investment.

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Posted (edited)

Something that could be touched on regarding Sabin. Something that is indirectly responsible for Stam Sabin basically falling off... The access to healing that a player gets grows faster than the need for it does. Even with 0 EL investment and no Mag boosting gear a level 25 character can toss around low 4-digit AoE Cure3s. It doesn't matter how high spell power Mantra is, it can't compete with that under the design of not hitting Sabin. Similarly, Harvester/Sun Bath are able to nearly entirely heal the entire party at literally no cost. This makes it so that investing in stamina for the healing side of things is fairly pointless because you end up playing in a world where everyone is getting topped off by almost anything you toss out.

Combine this with the plethora of MP regen sources the player gets via items alone (a good amount of elixirs and ethers along with purchasable tinctures) makes Mantra only really viable if you build the entire party around Sabin just standing there and spamming Mantra. In addition, it's more than easy enough to get enough MP via +50% MP relics, MP ELs, cost reduction, or simply being self sufficient later on to the point where a player can easily just toss out the biggest stuff (short of X-Magic Locke) constantly...

It's less that Mantra/Chakra are weak and more that all the other options work at least as well without dedicating a character to mostly only be able to use those.

RegenX is not worth building a character stam for because all the characters that get RegenX also get Cure3, which is twice the power (when cast AoE). Harvester/Sun Bath are free and with just stam gear (and Blizz orb) and no ELs a level 25 Gau will heal for around 475 HP (about 70% of the HP of a character without HP ELs or boosting gear) with Harvester, double that for Sun Bath. These are being done at Super Gau Speed as well, so he's not unlikely to (potentially) get 2 of these off between enemy attacks. And that's not even accounting for Harvester's use as AoE Remedy.

The only stats that can matter enough for EL investment for healing is +MP (just so you don't run out at the wrong time) or +Speed (Faster turn = faster recovery). I think this may be the heart of the issue. Why build someone for healing? Stam Sabin is pretty much for healing as his offensive capabilities aren't that great and his ability to take hits 'and' cover/counter isn't really that good compared to your bulkier characters.

Edited by Nowea
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3 hours ago, Nowea said:

Something that could be touched on regarding Sabin. Something that is indirectly responsible for Stam Sabin basically falling off... The access to healing that a player gets grows faster than the need for it does. Even with 0 EL investment and no Mag boosting gear a level 25 character can toss around low 4-digit AoE Cure3s. It doesn't matter how high spell power Mantra is, it can't compete with that under the design of not hitting Sabin. Similarly, Harvester/Sun Bath are able to nearly entirely heal the entire party at literally no cost. This makes it so that investing in stamina for the healing side of things is fairly pointless because you end up playing in a world where everyone is getting topped off by almost anything you toss out.

Combine this with the plethora of MP regen sources the player gets via items alone (a good amount of elixirs and ethers along with purchasable tinctures) makes Mantra only really viable if you build the entire party around Sabin just standing there and spamming Mantra. In addition, it's more than easy enough to get enough MP via +50% MP relics, MP ELs, cost reduction, or simply being self sufficient later on to the point where a player can easily just toss out the biggest stuff (short of X-Magic Locke) constantly...

It's less that Mantra/Chakra are weak and more that all the other options work at least as well without dedicating a character to mostly only be able to use those.

RegenX is not worth building a character stam for because all the characters that get RegenX also get Cure3, which is twice the power (when cast AoE). Harvester/Sun Bath are free and with just stam gear (and Blizz orb) and no ELs a level 25 Gau will heal for around 475 HP (about 70% of the HP of a character without HP ELs or boosting gear) with Harvester, double that for Sun Bath. These are being done at Super Gau Speed as well, so he's not unlikely to (potentially) get 2 of these off between enemy attacks. And that's not even accounting for Harvester's use as AoE Remedy.

The only stats that can matter enough for EL investment for healing is +MP (just so you don't run out at the wrong time) or +Speed (Faster turn = faster recovery). I think this may be the heart of the issue. Why build someone for healing? Stam Sabin is pretty much for healing as his offensive capabilities aren't that great and his ability to take hits 'and' cover/counter isn't really that good compared to your bulkier characters.

This. This so much. I'm so glad that someone else sees this issue.

Sounds like the solution is a "global" nerf to healing, revival, item healing, and MP restoration capabilities?

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On 11.6.2018 at 10:57 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

This. This so much. I'm so glad that someone else sees this issue.

Sounds like the solution is a "global" nerf to healing, revival, item healing, and MP restoration capabilities?

Healing really gets ubiquitous later into the game.
Anything with Cure 3 can serve the purpose of a "strong" healer.
Anything with high mag and cure 2 can serve as a "strong" healer.
And basically anyone is decent enough at backup healing.

And Sabin tends to take a lot of damage from enemies, too(Surviving thanks to his HP)... Which means: He REALLY wants heals. But he can't heal himself... Very counter-intuitive. Basically: Whenever I need healing, Sabin is not a good choice. After big AoEs, he is oftentimes in the biggest need of healing. Aside from that, I have no use for a medium AoE heal if I need a big single target heal.

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Seems like the three biggest issues with stamina Sabin are:

-He cannot heal himself

-He cannot go on the offensive

-Everyone else can heal the party and do it better

I assume that the game wants us to use Sabin's Drain spell when his HP is low, as the hit% is based off stamina. But when your trying to heal the party constantly you simply don't have time for this. If mantra were to set regen on him this would be a nice workaround because it would help heal him without it becoming another slots.

Having his elemental blitz tied to stamina makes perfect sense, vig Sabin deals element damage via claws whereas stam Sabin deals element damage via blitz. This would give stamina Sabin more offensive options other than just Aurabolt, something he desperately needs.

Cyan is a better healer than stam Sabin, I'm not joking. Give Cyan the Hero Ring and a wind sword and just have him spam Cure2 while he uses Empowerer every so often to top up his MP. Cyan ends up being a better healer AND bodyguard than Sabin. You will come to this result if you compare him to every other character, they can all heal and then some whereas stamina Sabin can ONLY heal.

Stamina Sabin has one good thing going for him and that's Chakra. Compared to his brother Chakra is far better, at least from what I've seen. Chakra and Mana Battery both end up doing about the same amount of MP healing but Sabin can heal the entire party while Edgar can only recharge one character, slowly at that. I think the Mana Battery is in need of a buff as I find that Edgar becomes stuck using the damn thing every turn until you just throw an Ether at them instead. Besides, by the time you get Mana Battery/Chackra all of your mages have decent enough MP already and you already have plenty of ways of healing MP: Osmose/Soul Sabre/Raid/Ethers. The only ones who need the mana batteries are X-mage Lock and Rerise Shadow.

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Mana Battery can be boosted by Nirvana. Chakra cannot. Mana Battery ought to be significantly stronger than Chakra, but limited to only one person at a time. The amount of people who need MP support, however, is a concern. It's really only Relm, X-Locke, X-Mog, and Rerise Shadow who truly appreciate the help. Terra & Celes do prior to the Gem / Soul Box as well, but then they get it, and whelp, who cares. Also, no one loves X-Mog, so it's really only X-Locke, Relm, and Rerise Shadow, one of who is niche and the other who still technically has Osmose. (and, if its only one or two, just dedicate your Ether supply to them).

***

To side-step into something else about Sabin, I've seen discussion recently regarding Sabin's frailty, slow speed as a healer, and endgame armors. So, quick points b/c I can't talk much right now:

Mirage Vest

Hard to obtain, less popular in use b/c its not clearly better than Dark Gear. Me and Vaylen discussed this a week ago. How about one of either A) one Mirage Vest can be obtained outside of the Colosseum, or B) Mirage Vest gets a vigor+ (+5 or +7), making it more desirable? It's got Mg.Eva+20, Spd+7, and auto-haste to make it desirable for a healer build, it's just so hard to obtain.

Light Robe

Sabin's got m.def armor, but it's only for the early WoR, and maybe not quite enough for the poor guy. Aesthetically, there ought to be a Force Robe of sorts, but we've got a Force Armor instead.

One proposition here is for the Light Robe to provide one elemental resistance.

The other proposition here is for the Force Armor to be the Force Robe instead. This hurts Edgar, Setzer, and Cyan, so something would have to be done for them to re-gain a magical armor. Thankfully, having both Diamond and Crystal Mail is redundant, so one of those can be re-designed into a mini magical armor of sorts. This gives Sabin a +70 mg.def, Resist Fire/Ice/bolt robe that has poor p.def and p.eva, favoring the back row, where stam Sabin wants to be. Slap a +5 or +7 stamina on it, and stam Sabin's got an armor that vig Sabin doesn't care for.

Royal Jacket

It'd be nice if Edgar had some reason for wanting to equip the Royal Jacket, especially if Sabin suddenly has other endgame armors he cares for equipping.

Helmet

Uh, probably nothing. stam Sabin's got Red Cap and Skull Cap, that's probably decent enough. It's a shame that vig Sabin's ultimate is the Tiger Mask, but that's not the current discussion, and as vig Sabin is rather awesome, let's drop this.

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The Force Robe sounds nice, but your cutting off more physical based characters from having magic defense to give magic users even more magic defense. Instead of getting 4 Force Armor you should instead find 2 Force Armor and 2 Force Robes, maybe have them trade for each other in the colosseum.

Also +1 to stam on spears, finding a mirage vest outside colosseum, and a relic that gives Relm Interceptor

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Relm can already get Interceptor without using a relic slot. It's what I always do because I've never enjoyed Shadow.

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22 minutes ago, Shax said:

Relm can already get Interceptor without using a relic slot. It's what I always do because I've never enjoyed Shadow.

People that enjoy Shadow shouldn't just fucked, though. Luckily, I have a bug that gives both Relm AND Shadow interceptor at the same time. Nice bug.


Force Robe sounds like a good idea. Stats are up for discussion there. I also really like the idea of Sabin's elemental Blitzes being stam-based. Not much of a reason to not let one of his builds be able to spec into them: They'll still do work when appropriate on Vig Sabin even.

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2 hours ago, Mr. Ultima said:

The Force Robe sounds nice, but your cutting off more physical based characters from having magic defense to give magic users even more magic defense. Instead of getting 4 Force Armor you should instead find 2 Force Armor and 2 Force Robes, maybe have them trade for each other in the colosseum.

Thanks.

Force Armor and Force Robe both share Terra, Celes, and Mog as people who can equip these armors. So, that'd be unchanged. Strago and Gogo gaining Force Robe, yes, is redundant with their Hides.

If its possible programming wise, having both with some Colosseum trades is interesting. 2 of both might be a little much, I'd rather see 2-3 total

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5 minutes ago, Vaylen said:

People that enjoy Shadow shouldn't just fucked, though. Luckily, I have a bug that gives both Relm AND Shadow interceptor at the same time. Nice bug.

People that enjoy Shadow aren't fucked because Relm doesn't need Intercepter.  It's an Easter egg bonus that kinda makes up for missing an entire character and simply makes a strong character even stronger. Not to mention the potential "teleporting dog" issues that could arise from any solution that allows both characters to have the dog at the same time. I mean if you really like both characters it certainly lets you have your cake and eat it too, but I personally don't see the need.

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6 minutes ago, Shax said:

People that enjoy Shadow aren't fucked because Relm doesn't need Intercepter.  It's an Easter egg bonus that kinda makes up for missing an entire character and simply makes a strong character even stronger. Not to mention the potential "teleporting dog" issues that could arise from any solution that allows both characters to have the dog at the same time. I mean if you really like both characters it certainly lets you have your cake and eat it too, but I personally don't see the need.

I think the problem is tying "Relm with Interceptor" into the core definition of who stam Relm is. If Interceptor is to remain as an Easter Egg, then I want to see Interceptor revert back to doing magic-based damage when guarding Relm while we look for a proper definition of who stam Relm is and what her role on the team is.

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8 minutes ago, Shax said:

People that enjoy Shadow aren't fucked because Relm doesn't need Intercepter.  It's an Easter egg bonus that kinda makes up for missing an entire character and simply makes a strong character even stronger. Not to mention the potential "teleporting dog" issues that could arise from any solution that allows both characters to have the dog at the same time. I mean if you really like both characters it certainly lets you have your cake and eat it too, but I personally don't see the need.

The need only arises when you talk about a Relm build that needs Interceptor. Getting Interceptor on her sacrifices too much(Highest dps, best image/haste setter, arguably best rerise setter, dispell user).
So yeah, you are fucked if you want a Relm build that relies on Interceptor, but still want to have Shadow.
I just go my happy-go-buggy way, for the time being.


Edit: Basically what that funny guy said

Edited by Vaylen
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