praetarius5018

Final Fantasy 5: the brainstorming

39 posts in this topic

1) As said somewhere above, originally I wanted to remove MP altogether.
But that is kinda difficult if you have tiered spells. I mean sure, I could change it to Fire1 hits one target, Fire2 hits all with the multitarget penalty but what should Fire3 do then?
Or replace tier3 entirely, that'd work too.
Or scratch Fire2 AND 3, then keep Fire"1" as toggleable single/multitarget.
Ok, there probably aren't that many staples in the series we're missing AND can recreate.
Plus, certain classes would become overpowered just on the basis of sheer choices.
A Black Mage with 18 answers per problem instead of 5 would be terrifying.

And how'd you balance Fire1 against Fight AND X-Fight at the same time..
problems, problems..

And what to do with MP damage/stealing/regenating effects then.

3) This would just be a name change then.
I don't think that is really necessary when magic is so freely available that you can file it under "a mage was bored between battles".

4) Overall it increases the complexity of choice together with element changes.
Every item modifies elemental weakness and strength so on the open sea where water will be more present you'd rather not take fire items unless the side effects are really, really good.

5) "Many elements" is imo only a problem when ways to inflcit damage of that type barely exists.
At the moment I only recall one way outside of Gaia (I exclude it because of region lock) to inflict poison (Bio) and water damage (Leviatan; Aqua Rake is non-elemental).

6) Don't give me ideas.
Else I remember what the lowest difficulty was you used and then deny the final battle on difficulty 4 or easier.
And on a pure difficulty 1 playthrough you get a third phase on the final boss.

7) BD had the most hilarious version honestly.
By default you could turn encounters off or increase it up to almost every step.
BUT!
If you grind your starting class a whole lot you get "enemy lure" ability which increases the encounter rate as well.
Pointless.

Overall I don't have much problem with random encounters themselves.

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1)  Ah, I was referring to what you're already doing (with having MP start at 0, etc.) as "scrapping" the system, so I was just saying I support that idea.  The SNES era FF MP system just strikes me of a brainless copycat of Dragon Quest's MP system.  Except in Dragon Quest games you have very limited inventories, sparse if any methods of restoring MP in a dungeon, and a significant focus on dungeon attrition, and these factors make that MP system work decently.  But in FF, with virtually limitless inventories, many MP restoring items, and less of a focus on dungeon attrition:  it just feels pointless.

5)  Sparse usage of the many elements is a frequent problem, yes.  But I would say that another frequent problem is when having so many elements makes it take too long to identify enemy weaknesses/strengths such that you don't discover them until the dungeon is basically over (or don't bother trying in the first place).  Showing the enemy element types addresses that issue, though.

6)  Hey it's not my fault if you carry an idea to its extreme!  :P  I just like for being at the end of a game on "Hard" mode to serve as a testament to a Hard mode run that has occurred.  Rather than being some dial you could have turned up or down at any time.

7)  Well, I was only suggesting that unaugmented random encounter systems are problematic (in terms of appeal).  Examples of augments would be the BD thing or even something with minimal impact like the SMT/EO encounter radar (of green -> yellow -> red).  This isn't terribly relevant to a hack, though.  If the original game had no augments, no one is going to bat an eye if the hack doesn't either.  I only mentioned it because you're already looking to apply an augment, and I think it'll make for a nice bonus feature.

 

4)  So basically I was referring to the shift from "typed" slots (head/body/shield/etc) to untyped (all accessories).  I see both as equally viable, so I guess you could call this playing devil's advocate, but I wanted to point out the benefits of a typed system.  I dunno if you've played Fire Emblem Awakening or Fates, but in those games you can have your player characters marry and produce an offspring based on the parents.  However, each char can only marry one other char.  Because of this, when you have characters marry, you have to carefully consider all the other possible marriages you're giving up as a result.  If you could marry anyone freely, you'd have a lot more options to choose from, but the depth of the decision becomes a lot shallower, because you don't have so many opportunity costs to consider.  You'd just choose the most desirable partner in each individual case.

Similarly, with typed EQ slots, when you equip a helmet you're both deciding on that helmet and deciding against every other helmet.  This means you have to consider what kinds of benefits can be gotten from helmets vs. what kinds of benefits can be gotten from other types of EQ, and decide not only if this is the right choice to make for an EQ slot, but also if it's the right choice to make for the helmet slot, specifically.  So, compared to untyped slots, you have fewer build total options to consider, but the process of considering them is more complex.

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1) Yeah I know; with certain other changes I made the normal MP system would be even more pointless:
minimal encounter rate to run back and forth between inn and dungeon almost unhindered and infinite ethers say hi.

5) To be fair, the Blue Mage teaches an ability to scan for elemental weaknesses.
And it just costs 10 ABP which is almost nothing compared to what you get over the entire game (2500+?).
Sidenote: in this hack you'll have it from the start and it'll use no turn - afterall it only gives the solution to a visible "math" problem of what does element1 + element2 have as a weakness.

6) Just look at SD3SOM, I rarely do things in moderation >.>

4) There are several items that are one of a kind, so to an extend the same sentiment still applies. It just extends the options for classes that are usually worse off.
And it is kinda required because I otherwise have not many options to give several items per element in each slot.
The game can only have a max of 95 defense items, spread over shield, helm, armor and accessoires.
Here now thanks to element changes also spread over 8 elements.
Also availability is a problem. I can hardly have 12 defense items before the first boss just to cover the basics (3 elements per item category).

I stand by my decision here.

I haven't played either game but I could imagine that a straight forward step by step choice in that system would lead to a seemingly good couple wise pairing of
char a1 marries a2, b1 marries b2, etc.
while a more optimal setup for the whole team would have
a1 marries a2, b1 marries c2, c1 marries b1
maybe because b2 is only 1% better than c2 for b1 but b2 is 80% better for c1 than c2

err what was that about again?...

 

hmmm ... would I break any "sacred FF rule" by NOT having tiered magic? Or cutting X-Fight to 3 hits instead of 4?

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6 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I can hardly have 12 defense items before the first boss just to cover the basics (3 elements per item category).

How many defense items does it take to cover the basics with untyped slots?

6 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

while a more optimal setup for the whole team would have
a1 marries a2, b1 marries c2, c1 marries b1
maybe because b2 is only 1% better than c2 for b1 but b2 is 80% better for c1 than c2

Yeah you pretty much got it.  And it's a maddening web of inheriting classes, skills, stat growths, and stat caps, along with each resulting child also being unique and having their own classes/skills/growths/caps to consider.  Combine the complications of gender, the fact that some character matchups won't mate regardless of circumstance, and an understandable refusal to engage in incest, and you get a maddening web of optimization that hasn't really been untangled yet even though the game has been out for over a year.

6 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

hmmm ... would I break any "sacred FF rule" by NOT having tiered magic? Or cutting X-Fight to 3 hits instead of 4?

Tiered magic is semi-sacred.  But then I've seen Chrono Trigger hacks that rename Luminaire to Holy and Dark Matter to Ultima, so apparently nothing is sacred.

X-Fight I don't think is sacred at all.  If anything, it sounds like it'd only hit twice.  Though you may as well just nerf it's power instead of its hit count so it can keep its flair?  Bonus points if the hits have more difficulty getting through high defenses.

Edited by zombero
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3 hours ago, zombero said:

How many defense items does it take to cover the basics with untyped slots?

Without counting shields 1/3 of what typed needs. And 3-4 elements in the first area should cover everything needed.

 

3 hours ago, zombero said:

X-Fight I don't think is sacred at all.  If anything, it sounds like it'd only hit twice.  Though you may as well just nerf it's power instead of its hit count so it can keep its flair?  Bonus points if the hits have more difficulty getting through high defenses.

I can change:

  • hit count 1-4 (5+ will crash the game if dual wielded)
  • defense ignoring or not; vanilla had that set, my version has not anymore
  • evade ignoring or not; vanilla used this as well
  • 1/2, normal or double attack power (value before defense); this one has normal
  • 1/2, normal or double damage (value after defense); this one uses 1/2

I already have a "X-Fight" clone that hits twice with half attack and double damage; so it has a much harder time against defense but at best deals double damage total compared to Fight.
So the idea was to make X-Fight hit 3 times with half damage making it always 150% of Fight but either above or below the clone depending on defense.

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5 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

Without counting shields 1/3 of what typed needs. And 3-4 elements in the first area should cover everything needed.

Gotcha.  Well, with the limited total item quantity and proposed element system:  I can see why untyped slots would be highly desirable.  I'm currently deciding how many typed and untyped slots to include in a system, so the tangent was relevant to my own interests.

5 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

So the idea was to make X-Fight hit 3 times with half damage making it always 150% of Fight but either above or below the clone depending on defense.

Sounds like the best choice from the options you listed.  Though some of what you're proposing for this hack (and some of what it appears you've done for SD3) seem like ASM hacks of a level that would make circumventing these restrictions trivial?  Unless it's all being done with rather clever data manipulations.

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3 hours ago, zombero said:

Gotcha.  Well, with the limited total item quantity and proposed element system:  I can see why untyped slots would be highly desirable.  I'm currently deciding how many typed and untyped slots to include in a system, so the tangent was relevant to my own interests.

In doubt, 3 is always a good starting number.

3 hours ago, zombero said:

Sounds like the best choice from the options you listed.  Though some of what you're proposing for this hack (and some of what it appears you've done for SD3) seem like ASM hacks of a level that would make circumventing these restrictions trivial?  Unless it's all being done with rather clever data manipulations.

Well, yes, asm edits are always involved.
The thing with X-Fight is that it is a multilayered problem actually.
X-Fight itself only calls the weapons attack several times with additional flags.
Certain weapons use magic damage formulas which ignore those flags, like the HP-stealing Blood Sword or most Rods.

...

You know, yes, I should just remove the half damage flag from X-Fight and add a hardcoded check at the end of the damage application that checks for the ability being used to being X-Fight and then modify damage there.
That'd solve so many problems at once.

Also X-Fight is so slow, especially with dual wield. That makes me like 3 hits instead of 4 even more.
Queue 2 dual wielding characters with X-Fight and you can make and eat breakfast before it is done.

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I have a big suggestion when it comes to abilities.

It's great that each class, like Mime, would have the ability to equip more abilities.  However, one thing that has always irritated me about FFV is that every ability is weighted the same.  For example, Black Magic or Dual Wield is weighted the same as See Hidden Passages?  Really?  Why would I ever burn an ability slot on Auto-Shell unless I had no other option?

There's a couple of solutions for this, and both very likely involve some pretty huge hacks.

1.  Make it so the characters have a ton of ability slots, like 6 per class, and make it so each ability consumes 1-3 slots.  Then, you can assign a weight to each ability.  This is kinda like the system in Final Fantasy Dimensions.

2.  Make it so the abilities are given a type, kinda like in Final Fantasy Tactics; so there are counter abilities, support abilities, etc.

I feel that this would create a lot more in terms of customization, and would provide a great opportunity to balance all or most abilities; and not just have many of them be throwaways.

Also, I would make it a design goal to make the Mime and Freelancer classes more niche classes.  It would really be cool to have a system where you are heavily encouraged to choose actual classes for end-game, instead of us all having 4 mimes or 4 freelancers with our end-game party.

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5 hours ago, zeteginara said:

2.  Make it so the abilities are given a type, kinda like in Final Fantasy Tactics; so there are counter abilities, support abilities, etc.

Yeah, I've always thought FFV wanted to have a separate passive ability slot, at the very least.

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I can't add more slots but what I did was that in-battle passive abilities are replaced with certain active abilities, specifically with !Item, !Fight, !Brave (take two actions now, double delay until next turn), !Scan in that order whichever you don't have yet.

So if you put on your Thief:
!Steal (always set because of class)
Politics (passive that gives you 2x items on steal and from victory spoils)
Counter
Evade

you can in-battle select from:
!Steal
!Brave
!Fight
!Item

but still get the benefits from the 3 passive skills.

Innate abilities now count for all classes, not only for Mime and Freelancer.

As for knowing which are innate:

FF5innate.png

Plus Freelancer is not selectable once you have switched.
Well, in short every class is like the vanilla Mime.

I hope that answers that slightly.

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On 26.9.2017 at 4:05 PM, praetarius5018 said:

1) As said somewhere above, originally I wanted to remove MP altogether.
But that is kinda difficult if you have tiered spells. I mean sure, I could change it to Fire1 hits one target, Fire2 hits all with the multitarget penalty but what should Fire3 do then?
Or replace tier3 entirely, that'd work too.
Or scratch Fire2 AND 3, then keep Fire"1" as toggleable single/multitarget.
Ok, there probably aren't that many staples in the series we're missing AND can recreate.
Plus, certain classes would become overpowered just on the basis of sheer choices.
A Black Mage with 18 answers per problem instead of 5 would be terrifying.

not sure if I should corrected or have proven my point

 

new white spell list:

Spoiler

cure, restore some HP for one/all
dia (replaces scan), one/all holy damage
pure, cures poison, blind and paralyzation
mute, inflict silence
armor, half physical damage
mini, inflict or cure mini status
smite (replaces cure2), one lightning damage, pierces 50% defense like flare
life, revive with 1/16 HP
charm, inflict confuse/charm
image, block 2 physical hits
shell, half magic damage taken and greater chance to resist spells that don't auto-hit (e.g. status effects)
heal, removes status ailments that aren't death or doom
storm (replaces cure3), one/all wind damage (white had aero in some titles)
wall, reflect spells for a short period of time (about 2-3 turns)
fury, inflict berserk
ward (replaces life2), like golem but a bit weaker
holy, high single target holy elemental damage, pierces defense like flare
dispel, removes most buffs

 

new black spell list:

Spoiler

fire, one/all fire elemental damage
ice, one/all ice elemental damage
bolt, one/all lightning elemental damage
venom, can inflict poison
sleep, can inflcit sleep
toad, inflict/cure toad status
water, one/all water elemental damage
stun, can inflict paralyzation
dark, can inflict blind
drain, wind elemental HP steal
break, can inflict petrify (=death for monster)
bio, poison elemental damage vs one, inflicts HP leak
quake, earth/ground type hit all spell (ground = can't hit float/flying)
tempr, increase attack power of ally by +6, max +30 (affects thanks to scaling physical and magic damage)
curse, not yet implemented, aiming for target takes +50% damage on next hit and has 0 def for that hit
flare, high single target fire elemental damage, pierces defense (means halves defense)
doom, instant death if successful
psych, poison elemental MP steal

 

new blue spell list

Spoiler

condemn, 30 seconds (more like 2-3 turns now) until certain death; also "revive effects" cancels this state
roulette, tries to kill a random target
aqua rake, got water element (and keeps anti-desert for x4 damage), was previously only neutral + anti-desert
l5 doom, all enemies with level dividable by 5 die
l4 quarter, all enemies with level dividable by 4 take damage of 75% remaining HP
l2 old, all enemies with level dividable by 2 suffer old status
l3 flare, all enemies with level dividable by 3 get hit by "flare"
frog song, inflict/cure toad status
tiny song, inflict mini status
flash, inflict blind
time slip, inflict old + sleep
moon flute, inflict berserk
death claw, HP to 1 with paralyzation
aero, one/all wind elemental damage
L? holy (replaces aero2), casts "holy" on an enemies that are NOT affectable by L2, L3, L4 or L5
Snowstorm (replaces aero3), level based ice elemental damage against all enemies, can inflict blind
emission (flamethrower), single target fire damage
goblin punch, x4 multiplier instead of x8 against target of same level
dark shock, halves target level
guard off, halves target defense
crusher (replaces fusion), deal damage equal to target's missing HP
blast, damage, HP leak and paralyzation
vampire, steal HP equal to half HP lost
magic hammer, inflict MP damage
big guard, armor, shell and float
exploder, if used by a PLAYER, caster survives with 1 HP instead of 0, also double damage; monster get normal damage and die
????, deal damage equal to own lost HP
needles, 1000 damage if used by monster, x2 if used by player
white wind, only half current HP is used as heal power
missile, deal damage equal to 1/2 of target's current HP, +50% if weak to wind; usable versus boss at reduced power

 

new time spell list

Spoiler

bleed (replaces drag, the does nothing spell), low fire elemental damage + HP leak
slow, increase delay between turns by 50% (vanilla was +100%)
regen, heal HP in set interval
warp (replaces void), change row of ally
haste, reduce delay between turns by 33% (vanilla was -50%)
float, avoid "ground" type moves
demi, 50% damage normally, 75% if target is weak to wind, works against heavies but at reduced power
stop, inflict stop status
exit, escape from battle independant of flee chance (as long as possible at all); escape from dungeon
comet, got earth element and "random" damage is now random relative to weapon power and regular M instead of pure 50..200 and a constant M
G100 (replaces slow2), remove float/flying, reduces p.evade if above 15 by 25%
reset, start battle over as if it never happened
shift (replaces demi2), target ally gets to act now (atb = 0); basically trade own turn for ally's
??? (replaces hast2), not decided yet
old, target gradually loses stats; has minimum values compared to "naked" stats (without armor)
meteo, same damage change as comet; still hits 4 random targets (or same target 4 times)
flood (replaces quick), water damage to all enemies
xzone, instantly destroy target (means it works against undead as well)

 

new spellblade list

Spoiler

(unless otherwise noted, elemental buff affects are x2 damage against weakness with NO defense change; applying the buff does not consume a turn and works on most now weapons that aren't in reality casting spells instead of attacking, e.g. harps, blood sword,..)
fire, fire elemental weapon buff
ice, ice elemental weapon buff
bolt, lightning elemental weapon buff
venom, weapon buff that enables to inflict poison
mute, weapon buff that enables to inflict silence
sleep, weapon buff that enables to inflict sleep
water, water elemental weapon buff
hold, weapon buff that enables to inflict paralyzation
dark, weapon buff that enables to inflict blind
drain, weapon attacks try heal 1/4 damage; inverse on undead and if damage was absorbed
break, weapon buff that enables to inflict petrify
bio, poison elemental weapon buff
stone, earth type weapon damage
tempr, +20 attack, def -25% (nerfed vanilla flare blade)
wind, wind type weapon damage
holy, holy elemental weapon buff
flare, not sure what to do with that one, probably ignore all defense
psych, steal 10 MP per hit; reduced for dual wield and X-Fight

 

additional changes:
MP "damage" that exceeds current MP damages ATB (= longer delay until next turn)

The relevant element for most attacks will be shown in the top display (only one color for those though...)

FF5_holy_x8.png

can now rename character in first slot any time that menu is available (just via holding L or R while entering menu)

FF5_rename.png

FF5_rename2.png

doesn't affect "story" dialog yet, since those are hardcoded, only menus. maybe later.

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Looking forward to trying this. I've always thought FFV was the most forgettable of the SNES FF's, but based on what you've done with Sin of Mana, I'm down to try this one out too. The ideas are interesting and I will probably get my ass kicked, which is the whole point. Will be staying tuned. Cheers.

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Well, the influence from your SD3 experience is really obvious. I'm always for replacing resource management with active, consistent challenge and chances to actually use the tools I have.

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8 minutes ago, Valenhil said:

Well, the influence from your SD3 experience is really obvious.

oh, is it that obvious it will be a total trainwreck? :$

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