thzfunnymzn

Any and all Terra builds will do very heavy magic damage when using a Morphed tier-3 element against a weakness. Easily 7k+ with any build as long as you equip her correctly, and seeing 9999 by the level 30. Therefore, all of Terra's builds can do big magic damage, with only one "11th hour" exception. Maduin ELs don't really DO much of anything for Terra. So, except for very endgame "15+ Maduin ELs", Terra doesn't really have a viable "frail nuke mage" build. Her builds are mostly about building physical damage versus building raw tankiness.

... I don't necessarily consider this ideal, mind you. Terra should have a mid-game "frail nuke mage" build that her other builds can't just easily match. But that'd require editing how elemental damage is calculated.

On 8/22/2017 at 8:30 AM, Nowea said:

Now every item and relic shop has Warp Whistles or Back Guards (respectively).
 

I'm VERY tempted to do something with Warp Whistles and Back Guard whenever I finally get around to doing my own mod.

11 hours ago, Nerocrossius said:

I don't really see how it's a thematic loss there. Isn't it redundancy for dragoons to have a jump esper? Wouldn't it be like saying that Stray should only be accessible to RegenX users?

I think the idea is that Palidor isn't really a "good" esper, tactically speaking. "Whole party jumps" is there for the memes, lulz, flavor, and glitches. Since it's not a serious esper, it just makes more sense on Edgar and Mog anyways. Also, for what little use "Whole party jumps" does have, Edgar and Mog are still the best users of it. So ... makes most sense on them.

Palidor was an AoE physical in earlier versions. Not the greatest and more boring, but at least it had an actual use in giving Mogoon an AoE random clearer. Still wouldn't be useful on Shadow; he's got Shurikens and Ninja Scrolls. Gau, maybe, technically, maybe could get similar results to Mog with that version of Palidor. Maybe.

Either way though, the Fenrir summon (Image on whole party) is much more useful, and Shadow/Gau being able to open a boss fight with Fenrir -> HasteX is an old, entrenched strategy. Also, Fenrir is redundant with Edgar's Golem, while Mog technically can dance Desert Aria. Mind you, Desert Aria's a crummy way to try and set Image, but I guess it's technically there; so if we want Mog to be able to set Image more reliably, the way to do it would simply be to fiddle with Desert Aria.

---

I don't disagree with you on the aesthetics of Palidor on Lonely Island, Fenrir from Mobliz. But you'd have to swap their summon effects alongside everything else (esper equip bonus, esper level up bonus, magic learned) in order for it to work with how BNW's been set-up. Mechanically possible; aesthetically, you gain what you've been talking about just to lose with Fenrir causing the party to jump. Guess you could try and make Fenrir into a physical AoE again while Palidor gives Image. That's ... if you tweak the animations, you could make it seem appropriate on Fenrir and Palidor. But then you lose the "Whole party jumps" lulz flavor in exchange for a "more boring" and admittedly niche AoE physical; so, you'd, again, lose some aesthetically, on top of it being just a straight up unpopular change with some crowds.

So .... no real "winning" option aesthetically, unfortunately.

Terra

Non-mage builds reaching very high numbers has been a constant complain ever since early versions of the game. Honestly, the main way to restrain it would be to fiddle with the internals of how elemental damage is calculated. Make it work like all other multipliers in the game, instead of being it's own unique x2 multiplier. At first glance, +100% seems to do the same thing as x2, but it would mean that elemental damage doesn't stack as strongly with other multipliers. Yes, Morph tier-3's would still do great damage, but Terra's non-mage builds could no longer hope to hit 9999. Also advocate for changing Maduin to Stam +2, Tritoch to MP +20 / Mag +1.

Not really sold on the Ragnarok changes. Sure, it's a free boost to Ultima, but it also competes with Phoenix (HP+25%), and Terra's got other big damage options in Apocalypse or Excalibur. That, and knowing Terra can equip Ragnarok frees one up to put the Crystal Orbs elsewhere (like Relm).

Chakra and Battery

Saving Tinctures / Ethers is nice if you're guzzling MP. IIRC, you're X-Mages especially burn MP quickly. Terra and Relm also burn it quickly. Yeah, Relm's got big MP and Osmose, but it's still nice. That said, last I played, HP Sabin's Chakra managed to support a whole mage team rather fine. But ... I'm trying to put together a mod that fiddles with stamina in other way, so I wouldn't advocate for fiddling with its formula.

Sabin

Yeah, Sabin really is the main character of FFVI. vig Sabin's just kinda awesome all the way up until the very late game, when Bum Rush and his low defense can no longer keep up. I think the original design was that lategame Sabin would use Mirage Vest, granting auto-Haste to make up for Bum Rush falling off. But, Mirage Vest was never given the Vig+7 and was instead made into a vest for everyone, so, eh.

Cyan

No comment on esper equips. If he feels too powerful, could always have his base speed dropped back down to 24.

Setzer

Agreed on GP Toss being quite powerful. Also agreed on Slots being exceptional in how difficult they are to nail. Not agreeing on Dark access, but ...

One idea in a similar vein would be to give Setzer access to Sage Stone, buff up Poison's power a bit (72 BPow?), and just re-randomize Slots? X-Poison would hit like a Flare (but with Setzer's low, low magic), you could open a boss fight with Sap while still getting to do something else that turn, etc. Though X-Magic with all that healing is scary, and I'm afraid some people might use X-Mage Setzer as an excuse to take away Sage Stone from Mog.

Aside from that, Setzer's casino weapons have always been iffy. They've been revamped multiple times throughout the versions. I think one person mathed out that Dice could be decent mid-game filler if the exact statistics were modified a bit, but I think it never came to fruition. Otherwise, historically, X-Fight for Setzer is mostly about using the knives, or rolling Fixed Dice.

If Starlet were to change, it'd probably be to Spd +1 / Stam +1. The main resistance you'll get to any Starlet change is defending stam Setzer and stam Relm. I've always been of the opinion that the latter is a meme build (kill Shadow? really?), and I'm not sure Wind Breaker has changed my mind. But others do seem to like her, and won't buy a change to Starlet. It's ... not theoretically bad, but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue for it without also addressing stam Setzer and stam Relm as a whole.

Strago

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, and HECK NO!! I did not fight for so long to give Strago a proper dps move just to have it nerfed back into being "not really any better than Black Omen"!

... I'm not actually mad at you, I just have a flair for the dramatic.

X-Dark does hit really hard, but if it didn't, it's dps doesn't really come out any better than Black Omen, due to Black Omen's potential for higher speed (lower command delay, free relic slot), including something like pairing Black Omen with Black Belt Punisher strats. (Last I checked, counterattack works with Refract up). IIRC, 72 BPow was about where X-Dark and Black Omen came out to be roughly the same, which means 72 BPow Dark is mostly there for nailing the White Dragon.

Also, like with mag Celes, mag Strago's Black Omen is good, but it's not "exceptional damage dealer" strong. Comparable to Bum Rush without a Crystal Orb, and Crystal Orbs are rare; IIRC, only one is guaranteed, and Relm's rather greedy for it. So, Black Omen's solid for a character that has other things going for him, which Strago can do. Equip him for raw speed, preferably pair him with some front-row fighters, and Strago provides nice Safe, Shell, Refract, and Holy Wind utility, while also doing good damage with Black Omen. Good, just not "main damage dealer", which is strange on a character whose basically the magical parallel to Cyan.

I guess you could argue that X-Dark's concentrating that power into one move, with the benefits that provides in combat (like drawing less counterattacks). But I'd also still argue that Relm takes priority for the guaranteed Crystal Orb. Though I guess you could counter-argue that X-Dark takes priority over mag Celes, X-Mog, or Setzer, the only other people fighting over a Crystal Orb. Though I'd still counter-argue that X-Dark is competing with a spd stacked support Strago, so it kinda wants to do high damage.

... (To be fair, a lot of my argument basically revolves around how useful it is to stack speed on Strago, and Black Omen is more amenable to that than X-Dark. 90 BPow on Dark is to insure that "slow artillery" Strago actually has a place in the game. I guess you could just argue that Strago shouldn't have so much speed access)

Relm

For the Floating Continent, I think the main draw is that she sketches Flare on Atma, while also having those nice elemental rods. (The elemental rods basically are Fire 2, Ice 2, and Bolt 2). So she's a surprisingly good damage dealer in the FC. She ain't no Sabin, but who is? Also, in theory, she's a high speed character with Warp, allowing you to "nope" any fight in the FC you don't like. In practice, you just buy Warp Whistles for that, making the Warp spell useless.

Physical Gau is definitely better for straight up DPS, there's no question about that. Magic Gau is useful for slamming a weakness or for AoE.

Locke ... you're definitely in the minority. Most people seem to like the simplicity of having speed, decent damage, HP, and healing. Some people really love how easily his Phoenix build can waste Fire weak bosses in the WoR. You're right that he's mostly a Red Mage that doesn't really shine at anything except X-Magic.

One major point where I'll agree with you is in the WoB. Locke under-performs in the WoB, except for allowing one to stockpile rare steals (Slim Jims). Best you can do for the guy is pump him full of Kirin ELs. Helps immensely for where he's forced, but when he's not forced, Cyan does it better. Honestly, I think the major reason is because Locke needs MP to actually function correctly. Without MP (or HP), Locke's just a bad Shadow.

For his Kirin build, I'll point out that he can also dual-wield FAR more safely than his Ramuh build. He doesn't gain TOO much out of it in the WoB, aside from being able to do it without dying. For the WoR, the Atma + Valiance combo is nice. Yes, you can argue that Celes does it better, but Celes also should be using Illumina, even with her Phantom build. So it's perfectly reasonably for Celes to be a Cover tank with Illumina while Locke does it with Atma + Valiance.

Isis and Asura are easier than Myria. Last I checked, their physicals hit just as hard as Myria. It's just that Myria's also got a nastier fight set-up (Overcast, Mind Blast, Flare Star, Flare). Asura relies on rng to bork you over (N.Cross, Doom, Meteo), but it has to be moderated b/c everyone would complain if she regularly won due to rng, so ... she just ends up being not overly threatening most of the time. For Isis, Love Token doesn't do anything except say "don't use the Fight command", which ... OK, most characters weren't going to anyways, and the ones that do, it's more efficient to send them against Myria. Back attacks don't give a damage multiplier anymore, which is a major loss of flavor. The only thing remaining is Charm and your team being split up; annoying, perhaps it can catch you by surprise, but ultimately way easier to handle than Myria. (Somehow, putting Isis in a pincer is GOOD for her, b/c back attacks are useless but you can't heal as efficiently? lame!).

It is a thematic loss that Edgar & Mog, you're two Dragoons, would no longer have Palidor "whole party Jumps", but I guess I see the point with Fenrir belonging to Mobliz, Palidor belonging to the island.

7 hours ago, SirNewtonFig said:

It would be pretty hysterical if you could have Relm Cover/Counter with a brush and she'd just... slap her damage away after taking the hit.

Oh, I was thinking more "every xyz* ATB ticks, if a brush equipped, then Relm picks a random ally and brushes them." It may or may not represent a significant buff to Relm, but it's about the only way that I'd respect using brush healing / fishing for brush procs.

*Simplest would probably be "every time her ATB bar fills, she auto-brushes." Makes it indirectly a speed-based thing.

First of all, Welcome to the forums!

Second of all, I love discussions about minute balance / thematics of BNW!

Midgame Proc Swords

Break Blade used to be a thing prior to 2.0. Never found much use, since it was also trying to be a Water-elemental blade, and Elec Sword does the same thing. Rune Edge is there for vig Terra/Celes prior to grabbing Apocalypse or Illumina. In theory, you could modify Rune Edge to proc Break, maybe lowering its BPow a bit. Mostly a thematic change, but aesthetics aren't unimportant.

Rods

Elemental Rods are stupidly powerful in the mid-game. They're similar to giving Strago, Mog, and Relm access to all the tier 2's, AND they work with Black Belt. Bolt Rod is especially nice in the mid-game. Punisher is an excellent weapon for Strago or Mog.

Force Gear(Armor and Shield)

Can't agree. Force Armor is a meaty +70 mg.def with Fire/Ice/Bolt resistance. Sure, the Mag+7 makes you think "oh, only usable for mages", but really, even Cyan likes those nice elemental resistances. Now, Force Shield IS a bit more niche; Force Shield's auto-Shell isn't as valuable as Genji Shield's auto-Safe. : /

Radiant Gown

Haven't played with it much, but IIRC, I agree. Filler ultimate for Relm, Moogle Hide is more desirable. Have no real suggestions for it though, as I don't value Brush procs. 50% chance for an ST buff on a character who all ready has Rerise; just let another character use a 100% MT buff and let Relm continue attacking or healing. Maybe if Relm had a way to "auto-Brush", THEN I'd value it for a support Relm.

3 hours ago, GamingFiend said:

Any chance on the addition or replacement of a spell? Through testing I found that the Warp Whistle retains its effect without the Warp Spell being present in the spell list (both in and outside of battle), so the Warp Spell is unnecessary and can be reworked into something else. I posted a couple of ideas in the Experimental magic build thread for possible Stamina options for Relm and Edgar since atm their Stamina builds are more gimmicky than useful, at least in 1.9.

I'll personally chime in that I'm hoping more for Stamina to actually get a truly solid universal use, instead of having a bunch of minor uses all dependent upon stamina-based damage/heals & HP ELs to glue them together. (C/C being the one exception to this rule). Current idea I'm hoping on is individual statuses / status attacks having a variable amount of "how much stamina is needed to evade this status" (stamina is checked against 1..max instead of a hard 1..128 check), so that stamina can function as "status dodge" stat without requiring endgame-extreme stamina stacking to actually function in that regard.

lol.

For Mog, lower overall magic defense means that Mog will actually prefer using X-Bio (or X-Poison, as it is now known in 1.10), instead of X-Break or X-Quake, as it'd be nearly as strong as X-Break but at a much cheaper cost. Also means Dance Mog's Avalanche won't be any stronger than Razor Leaf, so Forest Suite ahoy!

...plz don't nerf enemy magic defense. It'll just bugger everything up.

; _ ;

Rip X-Mog as an attacker. Though I guess Sage Stone is still all right for Dance Mog.

Yeah, imo, Break-&-Quake X-Mog just ain't gonna perform well without changing some of the non-numeric special effects of Break and Quake. ('Twas why I mentioned +1 multiplier against Floating on Break. Try to aesthetically focus X-Mog around the idea of Float shenanigans. Alas, Quake is still an issue).

There's definitely redundant enemies in BNW. Some of the randoms on the WoR overworld especially come to mind. Also, having a new set of enemies in Figaro / Narshe Cave, when the old set are getting a script "upgrade" past level 7 anyways, is a form of redundancy. There's probably some other random places where there are enemies that can easily be cannibalized to make interesting Colosseum foes.

1 hour ago, Reiker said:

snip

Hmm....

I was rather aggressive with you because I perceived your previous post as very passive-aggressive. While there was redundancy in what I posted, a couple of points I made did address issues you brought up in in this post. Namely: Terrato Sabin can serve the Protector role while providing Chakra / Mantra support, and Mantra not necessarily being redundant with Chakra team because several of the recipients of Chakra don't have good party healing (X-Strago, c/c Illumina, c/c Punisher, Rerise spam Shadow).

Still, my apologies for my aggressive attitude.

I did read and specifically addressed points made in your posts.

You complained about not knowing what stam Sabin's role is. I set the ground for expanding the concept of stam Sabin to support Sabin (HP and stamina), which opens the door for support Sabin's the focus more on bulk, with potential for Cover (Terrato) rather than raw Chakra numbers (stamina).

You complained about not knowing what Sabin's role is because of how weird Aurabolt looks in 1.10. I explained and partially agreed on what Aurabolt's purpose is and how it meshes with the overall role of what support Sabin is.

You complained about Mantra's utility. I explained and partially agreed on what Mantra's new utility is, as well as showcasing examples of who support Sabin can support who don't have (major) healing capabilities, thus showing that Mantra isn't quite as redundant as it used to be when Sabin mostly supported Terra & Relm.

You complained that support Sabin's traditional role is rather niche. I showcased examples in 1.9 and 1.10 of where support Sabin's traditional "Chakrabot" role has greatly improved, primarily through new strategies to support rather than increased numbers.

I answered your posts. I agreed with your Colosseum complaints. Please, do not sweep everything around as if "no one actually read my posts." Please, explain what specific issues you are having, why you are having them, why you think they are problems, and how it is that no one is seeing your point.

@Reiker

I think you are making a mistake in conceiving of support Sabin only as stam Sabin. Support Sabin is actually Stray (stam) + Terrato (HP). If you want a protector Sabin, go heavy on the Terrato. Chakra still functions perfectly fine even on a heavy Terrato build - if Terrato Sabin's Chakra can do some major heavy-lifting and prove itself quite awesome in a Nowea Hard Type game (what I just did), then it's perfectly viable in a normal game. So, if you want a Protector Sabin, build heavy Terrato, use Mantra / Chakra, probably do some C/C Ocean Claw stuff to keep Sabin alive.

Honestly, Chakra is still the main selling point of support Sabin. If you ain't using Chakra, you have no business using support Sabin; please use vig Sabin instead. That said, Chakra's got a lot of stealth buffs since....1.7 or 1.8? Osmose is only half as strong as it used to be in the early days, meaning that Relm actually appreciates Figaro Support now without being strictly dependent on it like an X-Sage would. C/C with auto-crit on a lower MP character (Phantom Celes, Mog) can guzzle through MP; said C/C builds are also bulky front-row, Cover users, meaning that they all ready synergize well with squishy mages (Strago & Relm). 1.10's change to Strago's Dark pushes X-Dark more towards being high power but high MP (see: other X-Sages); while Strago does have X-Osmose, unlike the other Sages, X-Sage Strago, like Relm, should actually appreciate Figaro Support now. Also, it is still the case the Figaro Support is helpful / critical for a Rerise spamming Shadow or non-Bank Setzer (should hopefully see more use, now that Chakra is supporting more attackers as well as some tanks).

So while Chakra ain't any stronger (it shouldn't be), there's a lot more areas where it's useful now. Honestly, my only two disappointments right now a) support Sabin cannot support Merton spam while also benefiting from it's premier fire-absorb healing strat (he needs Lazy Shell just to get immunity; Edgar, meanwhile, can equip a Flame-/Multi-guard), and b) X-Mog, as an attacker, is still subpar and has gotten even worse (higher MP costs for no gain), so it's highly unlikely he'll find use when players have the shiny new X-Dark to abuse for big magical damage. (Note: as a supporter, Sage Stone on Mog grants X-Haste alongside other minor utility. Potentially useful for a Dancer Mog who wants extra party utility. But as an attacker, outside of Poison weaknesses, Sage Mog is very subpar).

For Aurabolt, something I think you're missing is that Aurabolt is an early- / mid-game move. It's battle power is simply not high enough for it to remain functional past Daryl's Tomb. Aurabolt is primarily there to keep stam Sabin functional until he learns Mantra. I will grant that, imo, it does look very weird that support Sabin grows like that. Imo, it'd look cleaner if support Sabin replaced Aurabolt or Sonic Boom with one other utility / healing Dance, leaving the stamina damage Blitz to be learned sometime in the WoR. He'd have an early-game utility, mid-game, and late game. But that's an aside, not a balance argument I really want to bring to the table right now (it was discussed previously) since I know BTB isn't up for it, and it doesn't change the fact that, even now, Aurabolt is more meant as filler until support Sabin really grows into his own in the WoR.

The new Mantra does mean Sabin can function as a decent healer prior to Chakra, as well as giving you some flexibility to heal with Sabin while your mage blows something up later in the game. Also, 1.9 and 1.10 have given some MP guzzles that don't have good heals, notably, X-Sage Strago, c/c Rod Mog, and Phantom Celes (new Mantra is better than unboosted Cure 2). True, Terra and Relm have Cure 3, but Terra is no longer the only character who appreciates Figaro Support.

***

I just defended support Sabin. Things are definitely different from how they were in the old days.

Front row characters getting targeted more means that, not C/C, but Counter all on its own, gets a slight buff, which I guess slightly pushes Cover to being an actually, ya' know, defensive technique (I guess?). IMO, this is a good thing, as too many people seem to be auto-associating the two concepts in their head, even though Counter has existed as a useful status for quite a long time before 1.9. Also, imo, Cover really should be a primarily defensive status for defending squishies, with C/C being a special set-up. A good special, mind you.

Back row seeing less of any ST attack is straight up great for Thamasa, Shadow, Gau, any bulky healer / supporter, as well as Dragoon & Dragon Cyan. OTOH, stam Cyan has incentive to C/C in the front-row (with either type of katana, now), and a few bulky healers can probably make decent use of Cover as well (Terra, Setzer). Front-row, however, I'm concerned, as way back in....1.6?.....the WT crew got the "damaged reduction from back row" nerfed. Used to take half damage in back row, which created too large a gap in bulk between front and back row, especially because front row offered no advantage except physical damage, which wasn't exactly out-damaging magical damage at the time.

Things are different now (Bushido is nuts, Cover exists, physical glass cannons seem more popular), but I'm still a little worried about the physical glass cannons as well as Sabin / Cyan in the front row. OTOH, bulky front-row units (primarily Celes and Edgar) love having a passive way to draw attention to them and away from the squishies, though they'll want some status relics if ST status attacks are also being drawn towards them. Guess it's an incentive to put HP/stam builds into the front row, a row traditionally only useful for vig builds, so it's overall a good thing. Just a little worried about how it'll interact with some of the squishier front-line units, and a little worried that back-row units might get away with too much. We'll see.

(Also, just noticed that extra attacks means Image / Reflect dispel slightly faster in the front row. Stealth nerf to Morph vig Terra, lulz. Not recommending anything be done, other than paying attention for what happens)

"Characters in back-row are now less likely to be targeted by enemy attacks"

Is this for physicals, magical, status, and misc?

Also, have you thought of making the "Wound" status happen at 1/4 max HP, instead of 1/16? Might allow Cover to actually help a character about to die from another attack, whereas 1/16 makes it difficult to get into the right range for such an event to happen without flat killing the character. Also, worried that this change AND the "Cover only covers back-row" might nerf Cover strats a little too much.

This change and the Cover change make a LOT of sense, but I am a little worried about it making the back-row too good again. Cover tanks helps make the front-row useful, but outside of Cover tanks, I'm a little worried, especially for a more glass-cannony friends. (Shadow's good enough anyways in the front-row, mostly more worried about later game vig Sabin, vig Cyan, and glass cannon Locke. Still, this is all just spitballing and pondering. The above paragraphy is more substantial)

Chiming in to say that I agree with Reiker and I think some of the counter-arguments to what he says are weightless.

If it is, as seibaby says, technically possible to make Colosseum controllable, then even if there is no further change to the Colosseum, such a change would still be a pure QoL benefit to the player. The Colosseum, even without "perfect 1v1 scripts", would instantly become much more enjoyable, as well as a more proper fulfillment of what Square as aiming for with the Colosseum. "More proper fulfillment" is important here; axing the flavor of "1v1 Colosseum fights" pushes BNW away from being "FFVI fully realized," which, afaik, is pushing BNW outside of its intended design, on top of just plain pushing it in that direction when there's no necessary reason to do so.

Furthermore, I think ya'll are all thinking to inside the box with the whole "these fights aren't good 1v1 encounters." I mean, aside from the fact that doing 1v1 vs a foe that is normally fought 4v1, what about pulling from old WoB (mini-)bosses for Colosseum fights?

Bet Daryl's Soul? Re-fight the Soul Train! Make sure to Suplex him again as a "farewell, goodbye" to Daryl as she finally moves on into the afterlife.

Bet Muscle Belt, Power Glove, or Rage Belt? Re-fight Dadaluma!

Bet Gem Box? Re-Fight Number 024, Magimaster's little brother!

Could even re-fight Number 128 with his little arms, for a 1v3 fight.

Or, the granddaddy of them all, bet Atma Weapon to re-fight Atma Weapon!

There's plenty of room here for more interesting 1v1 fights without having to have "perfect" scripts for the job. Heck, Siegfried is only a Colosseum enemy. His script, at least, could purely be designed for the Colosseum. Again, even without perfect scripts, controllability is a pure QoL change that has no reason not to exist.

EDIT: I may have come across as to rude in this post. I apologize. Today's been a rough day.

39 minutes ago, SuperHario said:

Ah, forgot this too.  I thought auto-crit was their only innate boost.  It's been a while since I've played, maybe 1.10 will be my next run.

RE Rogue/Sage Mog/Setzer.  I don't really care either way, agreed that Sage Mog has more utility but Bank Setzer really has a hard time making use of all that MP; X-Setzer (SeXter, erp?) gives him a much more defined reason to exist.  As far as who fits the 'Rogue' character type, I'm not too fixated on the idea of 'classes' as any character can be spun to fit just about any persona.  Mog is Rogue b/c he's uncontrollable when he dances; Setzer is a Sage Cleric with all his white magic and inherent magical Slots ability.  In fact, he fits the role of Sage much more than Locke, who fits the role of Rogue being a thief, but I just didn't think getting rid of X-Locke would fly since he has such a deep magic selection.   In this scenario Rogue=Sh, Lo, Go; Sage=St, Mo, Se; note that the Sages now all have poison magic in common, so maybe this provides some justification as to why they can use it.

I'm just try to propose ideas that make (varying degrees of) sense, whether that be aesthetically, thematically, storyline-wise, to improve gameplay, whatever you want to call it.  I know they're not all going to be used, I just like putting them out there to see what sticks.  I did notice a few naming changes for 1.10 that I've mentioned in the past, so my proposals are not being ignored entirely, and I think that even if my ideas aren't used they're at least stimulating others thoughts to come up with their own innovations.

You and me both are in the same boat of throwing out ideas and seeing what sticks. And I like the conversation you've stimulated.

Bank Setzer does have a defined reason to exist: bulk. Setzer's heals and offense are all either quite powerful or independent of the stats he can build, so it's feasible to simply build his HP until he's a giant undying blob. He won't burn MP particularly quickly unless it's a boss fight where one needs to spam Rerise and/or RegenX, true, but being a bulky healer is still a definitive role. 1.10 is introducing the Viper Darts to give him an attack to burn his MP on, though I'll grant that Sage Setzer is a bit more of an interesting way to do such.

Sage Setzer wouldn't need any further work to be a viable option for Setzer, whereas Sage Mog has needed constant work to be a useful option for Mog (his utility works, but his wind/earth offense is sketchy). X-Magic with Rerise, Bio, Doom, and Cures is a solid selection of magic.

X-Locke definitely ain't going anywhere. As for sharing poison magic in common, there is currently one thing all three Sages share in common: their offense is designed to be "Gobbles up huge amounts of MP but does huge damage". Dark, Fire 3, Break, Quake, all fit this theme. (Life 2 is also expensive).

Honestly, I'm semi-open to the idea of Rogue Setzer, but not with the current balance of Slots. Otoh, I think Sage Setzer is overall more interesting than Rogue Setzer. Rogue Setzer is mostly "moar numbers" with Blackjack / Go Fish, while also boosting Cure 3 (and Bio, but lolz). ....Rogue Setzer might've been interesting back when Slots were random?

5 hours ago, SuperHario said:

OK, but you've said yourself that with respect to statuses, if you want protection, you must wear the relics and not rely on stamina.  Likewise, if you want the buff, you're likely to just cast it or wear a relic.  I've always used brushes as a free heal or to break muddle/sleep and viewed the proc as bonus.  That's why I feel like just giving brushes the increased proc rate off the bat is an easier solution.  The increased proc rate on radiant gown is still relevant for elemental rods.

If brushes need to be improved further, make them hit with full power from the back row or effectively make them remedies such that they cure most status ailments.

Err...

Elemental Rods have "increased spellcast rate" built in. "Increased spellcast rate" cannot stack, so equipping a Rod with Radiant Gown does not give you any higher of a spellcast rate.

This is why Brushes were given innate X-Fight. X-Fight does increase the spellcast rate right, but in such a manner that it can stack with "increased spellcast rate". X-Brush means that, since the brush is hitting twice, you get two chances for the spellcast to go off. So, effectively, instead of a 25% chance that increases to 50% with Radiant, it's a 44% chance that increases to 75% with Radiant. This should be enough to make the spellcast actually relevant, though you'd probably want spd Relm to truly capitalize on using brushes.

5 hours ago, SuperHario said:

Agreed on a Rogue Setzer with the free Slots and pause buffering to get nearly guaranteed spin of choice.  Could he become the Sage Stoner and Mog goes Rogue (since Dance is uncontrollable, it won't be quite as potent, and rod-swinging Mog definitely likes this).  Sage Setzer doesn't have X-Break or Quake, but X-Rerise is pretty nice, and gives a reason for The Bank to draw upon his account, especially with Starlet getting the +25% MP boost.  If this is done, Setzer would need one more high power black magic.  Best implementation of this is giving brushes Remedy-like ability (could different brushes cure different ailments?), and swapping out Remedy on Starlet for something, probably Meteor (shooting stars=meteors).  Bahamut can drop Meteor since you must get Startlet in order to have Relm; and could add something different to Bahamut if desired.

I forgot Blizzard Orb gives +25% Magic, I just checked the PrintMe and it wasn't in there.  A better option might be to give Gogo access to the Rogue Cloak (isn't found in the Triangle Island Cave?), instead of Gau.

So new setup would be Nirvana=Ed, Sa, Cy; Rogue=Sh, Mo, Go; Sage=Lo, St, Se.

Aesthetically, I'd honestly rather have Rogue Setzer than Sage Setzer. Mechanically, Sage Setzer wouldn't need any magic shuffling: X-Rerise and X-Bio are fine. Honestly would give me an excuse to ask for Blackjack to be nerfed again, since anyone who wants to leverage mag Setzer's offense could just be told to use X-Bio.

Aesthetically, I also prefer Sage Stone on Mog rather than Rogue Cloak. (Mog doesn't strike me as a rogue type). Mechanically, I can't put my finger on it, but Rogue Mog strikes me as a bad idea. Probably b/c I think it'd lead to all mag Mog's just being Blues / Suite Dancers and b/c of the loss of X-Magic utility (Haste, Float, Slow, Sap, Poison).

5 hours ago, SuperHario said:

- Brushes seem like a little extra tweaking is needed as hitting twice is an annoyance for instances where the spell casts twice.  What if they instead just have the increased proc property (ala veils) and ignore defense (if this isn't already the case). 

As annoying as it potentially is, this is probably the very first time in BNW's history where I feel like it's worthwhile to pursue Brush tactics with Relm in a serious manner (outside of extreme speed-run strats, * cough * Mishrak * cough *  : p ). X-Fight on Brushes can pair with the increased spellcast rate on Radiant Gown later in the game to increase total chance of seeing the buff come out at 75%. (Prior to Gown, X-Fight gives a 44% of seeing the spellcast).

5 hours ago, SuperHario said:

- The Nirvana/Rogue/Sage loop makes sense, but it made me think more generally about who gets to use each.  Nirvana=Edgar, Sabin, Cyan; Rogue=Locke, Shadow; Sage=Locke, Mog, Strago.  However, there are eight human males (Ed, Sa, Cy, Lo, Sh, St, Se, Gau) plus Mog (Gogo is gender fluid), so maybe each relic should get 3 unique users.  Nirvana and Sage stay the same, while Gau and Setzer go Rogue (Locke loses it).

This is a very interesting aesthetic. I, however, am utterly scared of a Rogue Setzer. Also, I'm not sure how are resident X-Locke lovers would feel about Sage Locke losing the Rogue Cloak. (Probably doesn't hurt his healing that much, but it's the elemental usage that I'm concerned about). Also, Gau's got Blizzard Orb, so Rogue Cloak is kinda redundant on him. Then again, I guess Blizzard Orb could be equipped by someone else or soemthing, iunno.

It's an interesting though, but I doubt it'll get anywhere.

Eh, I can take a preliminary stab at FC balance and # of options available to player.

Initial spoiler tag here just opens up to each character with their tl;dr. Opening those character's spoiler tags leads to a "thinking out loud, wall of text", so reader beware.

tl;dr

• Aside from Slots, stam Cyan, and maybe c/c, nothing's really op. stam Cyan is getting taken care of in 1.10, without totally nerfing him. Mog and mag Celes are definitely top-of-the-line here, so I guess one could look at that?
• Biggest issue is that many characters lack variety. Most Notably: Locke, Edgar, and Mog. Biggest proposals I have there are a WoB Sage Stone (somewhere where it's unmissable), replacing the Drill with a weaker WoB counterpart to the Defib, and an early Palidor.
• Strago's definitely underpowered. Gau may or may not be, but he's complicated. Early Sage Stone (from above) is a potential option for Strago, but...iunno.

23 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

Sadly berserk still prevent him to Cover

Herp. Forgot about that. Yeah, just pick between Cover or Berserk, that's fine.

12 hours ago, Nomjitsu said:

Gogo has better things to do than jump around all day anyway. Replace him with Fig's chakra Sabin idea, though I feel weird having a non-magic user ingest mp he won't use, and Edgar would miss the juice while in the air, which makes Sabin feel underused all because I want to gamble on the moogle toss. Perhaps modify the toss so that Umaro doesn't feel underused when Mog isn't by his side. 

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with pairing at least Dragoon Edgar with Umaro and Mog to try and get better chances of Umaro throwing Mog (1/3 chance to 1/2 chance). Just would need the 4th party member to be a healer / support instead of yet another attacker.

2 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Put Umaro into Berserk it doubles his strength and for some reason he can still use all of his ability which will get the boost from berserk ^^

...This is beautiful. You know what, I think I might actually bring Umaro to Kefka's more often. Hero Ring Cover strats and Berserk damage multiplier sounds great.

Interesting.

For Shadow, is either he seeing full evasion under Cover, or is Interceptor's extra evasion chance actually working with Cover, despite Interceptor not countering? Shadow...really shouldn't be the team tank.

I'm torn on C/C Dance Mog. On the one hand, Forest Suite + c/c Rods seems like the ultimately in a defensive Mog set-up, and I'm not totally certain it's necessarily bad (probably because I find the random nature of Dances to be a limiting factor on Dance's power). Otoh, it completely runs all over my favorite Sage Stone Mog, since I perceive Dance + c/c as probably being far preferably to Dance + Sage. Course, this is all late WoR, once Mog's got actual HP (Terrato). Seems like, early on, he just needs to stick with Dance.

My initial thought on Unicorn Edgar is you'd want to two-hand a spear for the innate Cover + extra power. Otoh, yeah, c/c Edgar ain't hot b/c of low Cover% and weak counters. Cover ain't bad utility on Edgar, but it ain't making a build. (Problem with Cover being used more c/c purposes, rather than as mostly a defensive tool). While its disappointing that Siren Edgar lacks his defining support Tools on the FC, his speed + Edgar's normal tankiness should be enough to make him plenty useful on the FC. Though you'd still play him as an alternative vig Edgar at the time, rather than as raw support.

C/C is definitely becoming a way of weaponizing one's HP score. Which...probably makes HP-based builds even better than they all ready are? Personally disappointed that I hear more about c/c rather than Cover as a purely defensive strat, as I had initially pitched the idea to BTB as a way of building true Defender roles in FFVI. Still, lack of personal experience means I can only comment so much on balance.