Serafie1999AD

I'm planning a group of God Hand, Vanadis and Necromancer, on Kevin/Carlie's quest. Necromancer will be a debuffer with a curse build, but what kind of builds (equipment) would you recommend for GH and Vanadis?

23 minutes ago, smileless said:

He only learns that for self, but Star Lancer has both Dark Saber and Saint Saber, tho with Archmage final weapon you still do a lot of damage with mind up/down, but for non elemental enemies or those eho change elementals then saint saber is viable to increase damage even more.

In what I said before, I meant this: "I'd imagine a secondary Light-elemental caster [from Vanadis' Holy Ball] would be useful against bosses like the Archdemon, especially when you can combine it with God Hand providing Saint Saber." A Vanadis can't get Dark Saber and Saint Saber, so that's why God Hand is providing the Saint Saber. He will be able to cast it on everyone by equipping Meta: Multi, which he needs for MT healing anyway.

11 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Actually Star Lancer + Archmage has a good combo going for INT capstone with Lise and get her Archmage's Final Weapon, this way both will do double damage for bosses weak to Fire, Ice or Wind.

Which one of Lise's classes would be better with Archmage's final weapon, Vanadis (has Holy Ball and Thunderstorm) or Star Lancer (has Ice Smash, Airblast and Fireball)? I'd imagine a secondary Light-elemental caster would be useful against bosses like the Archdemon, especially when you can combine it with God Hand providing Saint Saber.

11 hours ago, Nesouk said:

Might be a good idea to turn God Hand into the healer for that, and since Lise cover buffs and Archmage cover Power and Mind Down, you could use Invert Buff armor on him, this would mean with Magic Shield he would be able to reduce both Defenses, Protect Up through Protect Down, Power Down through Power Up and also get Max HP Down through Life Booster.

With Invert Buff armor, you'll be missing Power Up. Without the Invert Buff armor, you already have Protect Down (from God Hand), Mind Down and Power Down (both from Archmage), and Protect Up (from Star Lancer). So the only new ability the Invert Buff armor brings is Max HP Down, which can be replaced by farming a few Moon Coins against the toughest bosses. Is Max HP Down really worth sacrificing Power Up, Max HP Up and Kevin's armor slot?

4 hours ago, smileless said:

I was thinking before to try this too. No Anti-Magic but you have 6 main elementals covered, only one enemy will be a threat to this magic heavy party but no big deal, as for anti-Magic only two boss fights need it.

Which two fights are you talking about, by the way?

Thanks for the interesting idea of Warrior Monk, Star Lancer and Grand Divina. I think I'd build them to be something like this:

Warrior Monk:
Transshape, Water Jutsu, Heal Light, Leaf Saber, Power Up, Mind Down, Body Change, Energy Ball, Power Down, Speed Down (skip Fireball and Analyse)

Star Lancer:
Dark Saber, Energy Ball, Ice Smash, Speed Up, Airblast, Fireball, Mind Up, Marduke, Aura Wave, Protect Up (skip Saint Saber and Power Up)

Grand Divina:
Fireball, Diamond Missile, Airblast, Ice Smash, Holy Ball, Tinkle Rain, Speed Up, Evil Gate, Transshape, Triple Spell (skip Heal Light and Sleep Flower)
Alternatively skip Sleep Flower and Triple Spell to have backup healing.

I really dislike skipping Lise's Saint Saber, but I can't imagine any other build for her, since I don't think you can skip Speed Up, and skipping Mind Up is simply a terrible idea. There's also redundancy with Energy Ball and Transshape.

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Another combination I was thinking:

God Hand:
Heal Light, Moon Saber, Triple Spell, Ice Saber, Thunder Saber, Tinkle Rain, Power Up, Protect Down, Saint Saber, Magic Shield (skip self-only Aura Wave and Life Booster)
Alternatively, skip Moon Saber and Triple Spell.

Vanadis:
Protect Up, Speed Up, Flame Saber, Freya, Tinkle Rain, Heal Light, Body Change, Thunderstorm, Mind Up, Holy Ball (skip Power Up and Thunder Saber)

Archmage:
Earthquake, Thunderstorm, Mega Splash, Explode, Saint Beam, Dark Force, Mind Down, Body Change, Aura Wave, Power Down (skip Anti-Magic and Rainbow Dust)
Alternatively, skip Body Change and Aura Wave if GH learned Aura Wave.

Missing Anti-Magic and Energy Ball, but otherwise pretty solid. Has double healing, all buffs and Magic Shield, and has all debuffs except for Speed Down.

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Yet another variation:

God Hand:
Heal Light, Moon Saber, Triple Spell, Ice Saber, Thunder Saber, Tinkle Rain, Power Up, Protect Down, Saint Saber, Magic Shield (skip self-only Aura Wave and Life Booster)
Alternatively, skip Moon Saber and Triple Spell.

Star Lancer:
Dark Saber, Energy Ball, Ice Smash, Speed Up, Airblast, Fireball, Mind Up, Marduke, Aura Wave, Protect Up (skip Saint Saber and Power Up)

Archmage:
Earthquake, Thunderstorm, Mega Splash, Explode, Saint Beam, Dark Force, Mind Down, Body Change, Aura Wave, Power Down (skip Anti-Magic and Rainbow Dust)
Alternatively, skip Body Change and Aura Wave if GH learned Aura Wave.

This one gets Energy Ball, and Dark Saber if you want to enhance curse-based strategies with Dark Force. Pretty similar to the above team, though I'm not sure if God Hand's healing is enough to carry the team.

What kind of combos and builds would work in a team of Light Kevin, Light Angela and Light Lise? I was thinking of God Hand and Archmage, but I'm not sure of Lise's class. Would this team of Kevin, Angela and Lise (all Light) have any viable combos with Grand Divina?

5 hours ago, smileless said:

I love the duelist class, mod did justice to a class known for level 3 tech power, unlike the remake where I heard Duelist got shafted hard.

And on that note I beat Dark Lich, next is the Lise/Kevin/Angela run, with Vanadise/Death hand/Archmage. Star Lancer, Dervish, Grand Divina could also be interesting, I will think of that option once I reach level 18.

 

Edit: actually no scratch that, no mind down, going with Vanadise, Death Hand, Archmage definitely.

Why not Dervish instead of Death Hand? You would get Protect Down, Speed Down, Half Vanish, Poison Breath, Energy Ball and Analyze, while the Archmage provides Power Down, Mind Down, Aura Wave and Anti-Magic.

5 hours ago, smileless said:

I think I am doing a lot better this time playing this version than I did 2.0, I just had to get out of the zone of just using techs mindlessly and have at least one character conserve TP's for items, and also the variety of equipment.

Does the bug from the vanilla game exist on this mod, where a character's tech bar can be depleted even without using a tech, if the other characters use techs?

2 hours ago, JennaSS said:

Hi I'm playing on Normal mode difficult and I see when in battle I can't use my recovering itens like Candy or Chocolate. Is this a bug? It makes battle some hard to handle against bosses, no problem in normal enimies though. 

This is answered in the changelog of version 2.0:

On 21.12.2020 at 5:38 PM, praetarius5018 said:

so to sum up the changelog for 2.0:
tl;dw

  Hide contents

• added Lv60 capstones
• inbattle item use now costs 4 TP

 

 

Another question about mechanics: if a character has an armor with auto-buff, are the character's buffs automatically applied to the caster only, or all party members?

On 12/29/2020 at 1:20 PM, smileless said:

You could scroll up for a suggestion I had in mind with this team. Another variant:

Hawk (Main):

Ninja Master you could go with STR capstone so enemies spawn with less evade - good for Duelist to miss less this way, now TP being a lot more important to have with items also good for item usage.

Miss Transshape and Analyse, or Crescent and Analyse. 

 

Duran:

Duelist with STR Capstone. Or go with INT capstone if you give him cursed equipments.

Miss Protect Down, Leaf Saber

 

Lise:

Vanadise with AGL capstone (weapon cooldown) or with PIE capstone (Heal Light gives +1 TP)

Miss Holy Ball and Thunder Saber

Auto Buff Armor.

 

Another one:

Duran (Main)

Lord with LUK capstone (crit resistance for party) or PIE (+10 max MP)

Miss Energy Ball, Speed Down

Heals, has two saber spells

His final weapon works well in combo with Fenrir Knight's final weapon for HP/MP restore

Could make use of Auto Buff Armor, he got protect up, power up, speed up.

 

Hawk:

Wanderer with AGI Capstone (Counter dmg up for the entire party good for Lise's final Weapon), or STR capstone

Miss Sleep Flower, Body Change

Magic Shield, Anti-Magic, Aura Wave, and his final weapon makes Half Vanish better

 

Lise:

Fenrir Knight with AGI capstone (weapon cooldown)

Miss Transshape/Poison Bubble (Wanderer got both anyway)

Got debuffs, Leaf/Moon Saber on top of her final weapon to restore MP/HP with Counters, Counters are also open through Lord's final weapon.

You could give her an auto debuff set she got all debuffs, and you will have one more ring slot for an other purpose.

 

Lol that was a lot to think through, hopefully no mistakes.

Thanks for the quest-based variants. For Hawk/Lise's quest, I think I'll go with your original suggestion of Vanadis, Ninja Master and Swordmaster, since that way, you'll get almost all of the Sabers, and a combination of Saint Saber + Holy Ball. For Duran's quest, a group of Lord, Wanderer and Fenrir Knight sounds good for plenty of survivability, and counter builds sound useful against the story-based end bosses.

I've now decided that I want to use Lise, Hawk and Duran on my next playthrough. I haven't decided on the main character yet, though. What kind of class and ability builds would you recommend for them on a) Duran's quest, b) Lise/Hawk's quest?

Great discovery! That is so hilarious that it would actually be interesting to try it out. With the setup, Swordmaster will end up with a self-only Speed Up, which will be useless, especially when Lise will likely get the auto-buff armor. I could still get Regenerate by teaching it to Hawk, skipping Analyze (Swordmaster already has it, so not a big deal). Another likely scenario is that I'll give Duran the LUK Capstone for party-wide crit resistance.

After thinking for teams, I wanted a team with buffs, debuffs, sabers, some elemental coverage, and critical hits. I'll have Vanadis for buffs and healing, Ninja Master for debuffs, jutsus, critical hits and counters, and either Swordmaster or Bishop as the saber user. Which one would you recommend? I was thinking of this kind of ability builds:

Character 1: Vanadis:
Protect Up, Speed Up
Fire Saber (skip Power Up)
Freya, Tinkle Rain, Heal Light
Body Change, Thunderstorm, Mind Up
Holy Ball (skip Thunder Saber)
VIT Capstone for enemies spawning with a lower attack

Character 2: Ninja Master:
Sleep Flower, Thunder Jutsu
Shuriken, Earth Jutsu
Water Jutsu, Thunder Saber
Fire Jutsu, Poison Bubble*
Ice Saber** (skip Transshape)
Crescent, Analyze
AGL Capstone for global +40% counter damage.
*: skip if the 3rd party member is Bishop
**: skip if the 3rd party member is Swordmaster

Character 3: Bishop:
Heal Light, Tinkle Rain, Magic Shield
Saint Beam, Saint Saber (skip Exorcise)
Thunder Saber, Power Up, Diamond Saber
Fire Saber, Energy Ball (skip Ice Saber)
STR Capstone for level 2/3 techs inflicting Leaf Coat.

OR Character 3: Swordmaster:
Teach Regenerate early in the game
Ice Saber, Dark Saber, Energy Ball
Thunder Saber, Analyze, Saint Saber
Leaf Saber, Diamond Saber, Power Up
(Skip Speed Up, Fire Saber and Moon Saber)
VIT Capstone for HP Regen during MP Regen ticks. I'd have chosen AGL Capstone for increased physical boost for sabers, but it's not possible if you want to skip all AGL skills.

EDIT: Variations of the above party:
A) Lise as Star Lancer, Hawk as Ninja Master, Carlie as Bishop. Star Lancer learns everything except Saint Saber and Power Up. Bishop learns everything except Energy Ball and Ice Saber (which are learned by Star Lancer and Ninja Master, respectively), including Saint Saber and Power Up. Basically the same as the team of Vanadis, Ninja Master and Bishop, except with less healing, replaced by Aura Wave and Dark Saber.
B) Lise as Star Lancer, Hawk as Ninja Master, Carlie as Sage. Star Lancer learns everything except Fireball and Mind Up. Sage learns everything except Ice Saber and Fire saber (Ice Saber is learned by Ninja Master, though), including Mind Up. Quite similar to the above variation, except with less fire coverage, replaced by more Dark coverage (Dark Saber powers up Dark Force).

Congratulations for the new release! I was planning to continue my last run on this Christmas vacation, but since I hadn't got very far yet, I might as well start a new run with the current version. Since there's plenty of changes, I'll read through the documentary files first, to catch up with the changes.

My first question is about the Scapegoat weapon. The description in the documentary is, "draw aggro (minor), def down". Does this mean the weapon reduces the defence of the wearer, or that the weapon causes def down on the enemy?

My second question is about the new spell Regeneration. If you teach that spell to someone, will your party auto-heal after a victorious battle, or is Heal Light required for auto-heal after victory?

6 hours ago, Nesouk said:

I don't get the Y+B thing myself, weither it's in or out battle the menu is open by pressing X, the main menu is open by pressing Start and the inventory menu only by pressing Y out of battle.

When you press B+Y, it opens the party planning menu with 3x3 submenus, i.e. this one:

Why it opens with B+Y instead of just Y is probably so that you wouldn't accidentally open the sluggish menu when you're using a tech at the end of a battle.

On 8.6.2020 at 3:40 AM, hmsong said:

The issue I have with weakening all melee attack isn't because of the end-game -- that makes perfect sense to weaken the melee.  It's the beginning 1/3 of the game (before 1st class change).  The grind takes forever, because regular enemies take forever to kill.  And the bosses are even worse.  I couldn't even beat Full Metal Hugger at Lv6 (that's overleveled in that point of the game, since the enemies only give 3~4 exp).  I had to hack and give myself infinite money to buy 9 chocolates and candies and puipui grass, and even then, I only barely beat it (I only had 2 characters -Duran and Angela).

I loaded up some of my old teams to try Praetarius5018's bugfix patch, and I don't know what you are talking about with Full Metal Hugger. Okay, I was on level 6 too, but I never had to cheat to beat him.

First group: Duran, Lise, Carlie. I spent 7 Round Drops and 2 Puipui Grasses. Nothing too hard, just took me longer than usual. When I was starting to run out of Round Drops, I was thinking of simply not healing Carlie, since she wasn't doing much in the battle.

Second group: Kevin and Duran. For challenge, I had Kevin on his human form. I spent 6 Round Drops and 2 Puipui Grasses before winning.

My conclusion: FMH definitely isn't impossible, let alone something that requires cheating or even chocolates to win.

Slightly off-topic, but why were you using Duran and Angela? Since you didn't have Carlie on that battle, it means she's not your third character, which means your third character was Kevin, Hawk or Lise. Why didn't you have them as your second character, since Angela is practically useless against FMH? In terms of mechanics, Duran and Angela don't even have much synergy in the vanilla game.

11 minutes ago, hmsong said:

Yeah, that's it.  That's EXACTLY what I want.  I can see why some people would feel that it's stealing, but that means it will discourage people to use Lv1 tech -- it may be powerful (esp with saber/buff), but unlike Lv2/3 tech, you may actually miss, and it'll all be player's fault (not being in range of your enemy, not raising AGI stat, etc).  Computers don't press the tech button, so they may be immune to "TP being used up" part (I'm okay with either case though).

As I said, I think this is just a lousy idea. If the game's hitbox mechanics or evade RNG messes you over, you lose the tech even though you have no control over it. This makes the game more frustrating, not better. It's not like Sabers and buffs/debuffs are available until the first class change (especially if you nerf Byzel items to be more expensive or less available). So before that, this kind of level 1 tech mechanics just reinforce the playstyle of spamming the attack button and never using techs, since without the stack multipliers, level 1 techs aren't that much better than normal attacks, and the risk of them backfiring and causing you to lose the tech completely just encourages you to attack with physical attack spam instead. I'd take the implementation of all physical attacks doing half damage over this kind of mechanic any day.

14 minutes ago, hmsong said:

Huh?  I thought you can miss (or rather, you can use it when nobody is around, and it'll be used up).  At least, I think that's what one of the reviews said.  Or maybe I misheard something?  Oh well.

I just tried, and if there are no enemies on the screen, Trials of Mana doesn't even let you use techs. When there's an enemy on the screen and you use a level 1 tech, the game automatically moves you closer to the target and makes you always hit.

8 hours ago, hmsong said:

I was watching the review of the new Trials of Mana for Switch/PS4.  They mentioned that in that game, the techs will be used up the moment you use it, not when it hits an opponent.  One guy mentioned that it would have been a positive change if that were applied in the original game, since Lv1 tech was so powerful in that game.  I thought about it, and having a "risk of missing it" would make it less powerful without reducing its powers or something (and force players to think more carefully before unleashing that -- vanilla makes it so that people can spam it the moment they get them, since there's no risk of any kind).  I just thought it'd be a neat idea, that's all.

Techs are completely different in the Trials of Mana Remake, though. They take several battles to build up (sort of like limit breaks in the FF series), and when you use them, level 1 techs are just like level 2-4 techs in the way that they launch a special attack that always hits the enemy or enemies.

4 minutes ago, hmsong said:

Well, the point is to make Lv2/3 tech better than Lv1 tech.  In this case, Lv1 tech is too powerful, so making it worse would be a good idea, at least in my humble opinion.

It's not that level 1 techs themselves are powerful, but the way they stack with the bonuses is what makes them so strong. If they aren't affected by Sabers, Power Up and critical hits, their damage can't get out of hand. I'm not saying level 1 techs shouldn't get any bonuses, just set the bonuses so that they won't stack.

7 minutes ago, hmsong said:

praetarius5018 rejected the idea, and I lack the ability to make this.

Honestly, have you considered crediting praetarius5018 as the co-author of your hack? It feels like over 75% of the features implemented in your hack have been directly told to you by him.

18 hours ago, hmsong said:

Okay, then is there a way to make Lv1 tech worse?  I feel like Lv1 tech is the real problem here.  For example, is there a way to make the Lv1 bar be "spent", whether you hit the enemy or not?  It doesn't seem like you used that idea for Sin of Mana, so you may want to make that for Sin of Mana 2.0.

I think this is a terrible idea now that the evade stat actually works. If the tech bar is drained because of player not targeting anything, that's so-so but can be understood, but if the tech bar is drained because RNG decides to mess up the player due to evade stat kicking in, that's just frustrating, cheap and something the players have no control over.

18 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

I mean at this point I'm wondering why I'm even bothering giving feedback here and pointing stuff, when apparently I'm getting ignored most of the time.

You'd better just stop wasting your time and giving feedback. The best feedback is to abandon playing the mod, since it has never been about a challenge mod. The equipment mechanics and class variety are nice features, but the mod itself is overly tedious and focuses on giving the player the middle finger in every possible way rather than actually feeling fun or rewarding when you succeed in overcoming a tough battle. The feeling of victory is lost after spamming the same moves for 20-30 minutes. If the guy is so stubborn that he never listens to feedback and just wants to execute ideas that will make the mod even more tedious and frustrating to the players, let him be the only person who plays his masochistic vision of a mod.

These clues are only in your head. Since you know how to solve it, and everyone who's either found the solution or looked it up online know it, the solution is obvious to those who already know it. However, for those who don't, they can only randomly guess, with nothing in-game hinting what you should do. You can keep claiming all you want that the solution is obvious when you already know the solution, but that doesn't remove how you seem to be blind to your own vision and can't think from the perspective of those who don't know all the secrets of the mod like you do.

1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

Now you are the modder so of course you know the gimmick already, now I want to know for players who play this mod and manage to figure out his gimmick legit without looking up on Internet or having someone tell you how many tries it tooks to guessed it ?

I figured it out "semi-legit", by spamming save/load states for 15 minutes and trying all kind of random things until I figured out what cancels the 999 attack. That's not a way to create challenge, though, that's a "keep randomly guessing until you succeed". So many people have asked the same question on these forums that the answer is clearly not obvious to them. I've heard comments like this on other forums:

Quote

Oh god, don't remind me. Made it to the god-beasts and then quit because they have weird bullshit quirks that you won't know until someone tells you or you find out (unlikely, since the mod is horrendously tedious otherwise, so you'll quit way before that).
Honestly, Sin of Mana would actually work way better in the remake than in classic. I don't mind Spiral Moon doing 930 damage if I can dodge it.

4 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

as if this was the only game to do this...
you know what? Dolan needs a buff

That's typically a sign of pathetic design choices.
I think Dolan and every enemy in the game needs to be replaced with level 99 Black Rabites with 100 million HP and max stats, each attack doing an unblockable 999 damage to everyone, and your characters should be capped to level 1 with 1 HP and 0 MP, and if you get a game over, the game will automatically delete all your in-game saves.

38 minutes ago, shiliwei said:

godbeast of moon skill do 999 to all of us one time,even i did magic shield and protect up both.how can i win this?

You can win either by randomly guessing what causes the 999 damage and then reacting accordingly, or alternatively you can scroll up to one of the previous posts that says that

Just be careful, since

1 hour ago, hmsong said:

Thank you.  I'm glad that people enjoy my patches.

To be honest, I probably won't start a new playthrough of the SNES version any time soon. However, I'm interested in playing the 3D remake of Trials of Mana for Steam. There is already a difficulty rebalance mod that makes enemies harder, supposedly creating a much more satisfying game, and if you could additionally create a class rebalance mod, I'd definitely be interested in trying it out. I especially liked your idea of making Vanadis and Dragon Master more competitive with Star Lancer and Fenrir Knight, so it would be great if you could implement these changes on the 3D remake as well. I'm not sure how hard the game is to edit, but considering there's already several mods out after the game has been out for 3.5 weeks, I suppose the game is easier to edit than the SNES version.