Vaylen

1 hour ago, SuperHario said:

Remember though that a 100% counter would pair really well with cover, as long as Sabin has enough HP to survive the attack.  

Slight tweak to the new blitz could be 100% counter, plus normal cover chance (100% for low HP allies, stamina chance for others), but only applies to physical attacks.  Then Sabin can C/C while having both relic slots available, albeit for the hefty price of using up a turn.

Edit: Realized you could equip the Black Belt and get a double counter chance, which would be pretty cool.

The price of a turn is a big one here and Sabin is just... not tanky enough to take multiple hits in a single turn, I feel. Surely, there's some super high HP setup - but that also requires another character being a dedicated healer to him.
Additionally, it would get a lot harder to focus on Stam ELs when you need to scramble absurd amounts of health together.

So~ I do not think traditional cover could work as easily. Too many hoops to jump through to make it work.
I still like the idea of retaliating with a Stamina-Based attack, although, it would be cool if Sabin would have a build that would put his claws into a bit more of a focus(A C/Cing Sabin would use them more than a Vig Sabin, despite the damage difference). A stamina based bonus multiplier to his normal counterattack could be an idea - or maybe just replacing Vig with Stam on the counter attacks.

So~ Would you want a C/C Sabin to be more of a tank for the team with respectable damage, or a damage dealer that happens to take hits for the team(With his counters being especially powerful as a damage dealing tool)?

2 minutes ago, SuperHario said:

An idea for a new blitz is something similar to Cyan’s Retort from vanilla, which if I remember correctly was a guaranteed counter upon being attacked (physically).  Maybe Sabin’s new version of this would counter any form of damage with a stamina-based attack.  Looking here, logical name options are Dharma (truth) or Jhana (mental absorption, understanding), though there are lots of options.  Maybe the Air Blade animation is still used since he spins and that could be thought of as a reversal of the energy of the enemy’s attack.

It would be obscure, but if more of Sabin’s blitzes had meditation-related names, that would be interesting.  For instance, the five spiritual faculties could be used for his attacking blitzes: Faith=Saddha (Aurabolt), Energy=Viriya (Pummel), Mindfulness=Sati (Suplex), Concentration=Samadhi (Fire Dance), Wisdom=Panna (Bum Rush).  

Very cool and fitting naming theme, as well as some good source of inspiration... I like it.
Think a Retort like counter, while simple, could work. However, due its substantial margin of  unreliability(Even with counter all), it needs to pack a serious punch.

Accidental double post, sorry.

1 hour ago, thzfunnymzn said:

Stray + Terrato is what I assume when I say stam Sabin. I generally think of a 10/10 split between the two. Terrato Sabin is more 20+ Terrato, maybe 15 Terrato with some minor bit of Stray.

Not liking trying to shoehorn stam Sabin in as C/C. Just doesn't seem to work. Would rather focus on stamina's role as a stat.

I see.

As a stat itself, changing what it fundamentally does is a big and difficult discussion.
In terms of what it does for Sabin, we have already gone over how chakra could be changed plenty(or others, for that matter). For Mantra, easiest change would be self-heal and/or less HP scaling, more stam scaling. Less sources of AoE heal would work, too.
In terms of offence... He really doesn't need much - if anything at all. Having a Stam based AoE would be nice, but not necessary. Think Aurabolt could use a buff, but just a small one, and he'd be fine offensively.

So what he needs is something new. Having a "counter-stance"-like move would be pretty cool in differentiating stam Sabin, give him more supportive qualities and put the focus on his dual-wielded, elemental weapons. To compliment this, maybe more high-tier elemental weaponry could be added(To give him more choice). As he'd have a more unique C/C, this is not as boring as a solution as it seems, while still being strong and useful as a perk of a Stam Sabin build.

If this C/C idea is generally unwanted, though... We'd need something new - either on the stat itself or as an ability of stam Sabin. Do you have any ideas floating around? That "special cover" idea is really just the first that came to mind, thinking of his more supportive role and staminas general uses.

48 minutes ago, SirNewtonFig said:

How's this for a whack idea: what if taking damage slows you down (implemented as a small subtraction from nATB gauge, or small increase in action delay if waiting to act), and Stamina reduces the magnitude and/or likelihood of this penalty?

That's a fun one. Still would need the DR, just to keep Sabin alive during C/C stance. Difficult to say if that could be implemented, though.

Combining stam+Terrato doesn't strike me as a terrible idea anyway, though. But of course, Sabin's not made for covering - but he is really good at countering.
Hence I was asking for some possibilities: Like a Counter and/or Cover relic/equip with a dmg reduction while covering for Sabin. Or an in-battle move that grants Sabin Cover+Counter for a set amount of turns, along with dmg reduction and/or bonus to counter damage.
Naturally, both cover and counter would still be affected by stamina as normal to improve their chances. The dmg reduction or bonus dmg could scale with Stamina as well - making them undesirable for a Sabin that really doesn't want to cover.

Adding this kind of buffed cover for Sabin allows him to fill a more supportive role(Fitting Stam Sabin's Mantra and Chakra), while making him also a lot better at using counters than regular Sabin.
This doesn't need to be the only new thing for Stam Sabin, but it sounds pretty nice to me on paper - pushing him even further into "Support Sabin" territory... And not just "Living Battery".

A big problem of Chakra is Stam Sabin's main draw is also build flexibility.
Of the ones who always appreciate medium/light chakra support on any build, we'd probably have Shadow and Relm(Thanks to Osmose nerf)... That's it. Shadow only for rerise spam, naturally.
Most other character either really don't need the support(Setzer, Strago), have easy and strong MP options or have different builds that don't care for MP as much.
For example, I run an Omega Weapon Terra and an Illumina Celes. Celes, even without Soul Box and rather few MP ELs, just does not need her MP a whole lot. Terra, on the other hand, has such easy access to big MP that I picked some up and, as she doesn't at all need to spam expensive spells thanks to Omega, she has little need for Chakra regardless.
Now, as I neither use X-Locke nor X-Mog... My toons need no chakra - Mana Battery does its job just as well.

So not only MP management options reduce Chakra's usability, but also build options of other characters. The AoE effect also makes Chakra feel like a glorified tincture or ether at times.

So yeah... Chakra can't stand as the main draw of Stam Sabin.

Using what we currently have for Stamina in general, C/C seems a strong options, yet greatly hampered by both equip needs and his low defence. Would there be an option to create an ability that gives Cover+Counter temporarily in battle, maybe paired with a damage reduction? Or maybe an item for Sabin that gives him at least Cover+reduced damage while covering(But not at other times). C/C naturally works with Stamina and feels like THE draw of Stamina in this game(Aside from special interactions).

Just now, Sealarkspur said:

Oh okay, I thought you got in from the secret room where the Air Anchor was.

I believe they scrapped that room altogether. Think that info was somewhere in the readme.
But yeah, go up a few floors, get into the room with Holy-D, defeat it and you got crusader. I actually did that rather early into the WoR, so it shouldn't be that hard with a decent setup.

Assuming I haven't missed a patch in the last 2 weeks, it still is.
Got it upon defeating the Holy Dragon in there.

1 hour ago, BTB said:

Coding it in really isn't a problem. Putting it in in a way that doesn't seem completely hack-assed is a bit more complicated. It's not something we were ever really against, but it never really became enough of a priority for us to look into a good way of implementing it.

Hm, the only place I could think of at the top of my head would be... An extra section on the way towards the ancient castle. Would at least feel fitting due to the Pond Scums.
Aside from that(and that's not a strong one even), I cannot think of anything myself. Maybe something something Ebot's Rock(It having been underwater for so long and all - could have a watery section).

But I see where you are coming from. Doing things completely hack-assed just feels wrong and random. And most people playing this hack probably think about the water rondo in WoB, I'd wager.
It's kind of annoying that it is.. such a nice full offence dance. Best one for full offence, I'd argue.

18 minutes ago, xAcIdViRuSx said:

Could I get that site as well?

http://viper.shadowflareindustries.com/antigsc/?codes&dev=gg&system=snes&game=ff3/ff3
 

There. I looked - just ctrl+F for "Dance".
 

Hmm... the one thing I am really seeing is nerfing Gem/Soul Box to increase chakra's usefulness in that way.
I feel "MP-Healing" is just a pretty "meh" main draw of a build in general. It shines with 2 specific builds(X-Locke and X-Mog) and is just nice-to-have at any other time - which is pretty weak for a main draw of a build. A Gem/Soul Box nerf/rework would make Celes appreciate Chakra a lot more(She hasn't the best MP growth and has a big little ELs to spare). Terra just has flat-out too much MP if you really want to, but a gem box nerf would also make her appreciate this.
So a nerf to MP-trivialization of that pair of items would go a long way for stam Sabin. Wouldn't even need to be only a nerf - could come with a buff to Gem/Soul. Those two trivilialize MP too much anyway.

But to make stam Sabin actually good, the creative minds need to work on something new, so that he doesn't just have chakra as a draw.

Hacking in a way to get it is probably... difficult.

But finding a code to cheat it in shouldn't be much of a problem. I can give you a site with a rather big list of codes.

On 16.6.2018 at 6:12 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

Honestly, I don't see HP Strago as breaking anything. Gau's got Snow Muffler, with +60 p.def, Ice/Wind immunity, and HP+25%, which means he can then go an equip a helmet better than Red Cap. Run spd ELs for 90+ speed and Tumbleweed Rage (status immunites, auto-regen, Water absorb), and healer Gau is lightning fast and surprisingly bulky. Even if Strago gets the game's weakest HP esper, I'm not sure he's necessarily getting any bulkier than what all ready exists in the game for the frail characters. So, while I understand the argument, unless you also argue for something happening to Gau, I see the argument as null and void.

Or take Relm. Unlike Strago, she still has a strong AoE heal (RegenX) that also heals herself when she equips the Black Heart, unlike Holy Wind. Combine with her various status resistances (shields, hides) and spd+, stam+ (stamina actually making her heal better), and healer Relm is arguably just as bulky as this hypothetical HP Strago while also being faster and having a significantly superior heal option. (This whole set-up being stam Relm's one good use).

So, again, HP Strago isn't actually anything that the game doesn't all ready give for the frail characters. An actual HP esper is more readily accessible to a new player, rather than these set-ups (esp. that Relm one), true, but it's also counterattacked by how late the esper comes, its slow growth, and the fact that HP Strago's lack of magic makes him somewhat single-minded (spam Refract, Shell, and Holy Wind, with minor contributions from X-Zone and elemental sniping).

Also, HP Strago is still significantly below the likes of heavy armor HP+30 characters (Terra, Setzer, Edgar; Edgar also having an HP+50% spear). I'm doubtful as to whether or not he'd actually rise up the bulkiness level of even Locke, Sabin, or Cyan. This change honestly brings him up from being tied with Shadow & Relm for being frailest to being tied with Gau for second frailest, without going outside of what the game all ready gives.

Just about 5 points of +15 HP EL would turn Strago significantly more survivable - this is mainly due to hitting certain strong HP points. Not to mention, Strago easily has 10 points to spare.

But, on a whole, he wouldn't get downright "tanky" at all - he'd just not be REALLY fragile(And could probably survive a lot better in the front row, which isnt bad). It really is more of a question of "Do we want him to be less frail or not?" - not a balance decision. As mentioned, I wouldn't really object to the change. I simply think it would betray his core design.
And going just by comparison is... not much of an argument. Gau is designed to have quirky defences for many situations and, as a character that may very well front-row, needs a bit more defence. Shadow has his insane dodge. Strago is really only in the same camp as Relm - and her healing capabilities are always better than Strago's, so that's not a good comparison axis. I mean, your point actually did not defend the HP Strago idea, quite the contrary...

So, the questions are...
Would a +15 HP Esper conflict too much with Strago's core theme?
Would it actually change much of anything for Strago?
Is there any need/desire to make him more bulky?

I see the conflict with his core theme - but, as you mentioned, it really doesnt turn him into an actually bulky character.
I do not see a lot of a change for Strago(This is more tied to the stam thing).
I also see only very little need to make him more bulky via an HP Esper.

The change certainly would make the Odin get more exciting in general, give it more of a purpose and is better than stam+2 on a character with tons of stam by nature. There is the bit of synergy in terms of "front row Strago needs more bulk", so I see that - but question for the need of that existing(Currently, at least, Rod-Strago feels like more of a gimmick).
If one just wants to make Odin a more exciting choice, HP+ is a valid option and surely, it is not as problematic as I made it out to be - which is why I wouldn't mind the change.

1 minute ago, SpoonyBard said:

I wouldn't mind that, honestly. All the other frail characters are insanely fast, which means that if they die and get ressed they don't take forever and a half to get their next turn. Also, Strago would gain access to HP ELs in one of the very last dungeons in the game (by difficulty). He'd still be plenty frail for the vast majority of the game, and he really wants his magic EL to shine so you can't just dump HP on him and call it a day. Unless you want a Holy Wind slave or something (which is arguably the worst MT heal when it comes to recovering from a strong AoE attack)

Not wrong. I, myself, am not really opposed to the idea. On the other hand, I see the reasons against giving him access to HP ELs quite clearly.
It would be nice if there'd be some way to open up an actual stam build for him - HP ELs won't help out too much in that regard.

14 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

My idea was HP +15 to match Golem (or +20, whatever it is that Golem is now). For someone like Strago, that's still enough for 3-5 ELs to be useful on any build, but it limits how tanky he can become. (Pure Odin would gut his attacking stat without being quite as rewarding as it would be with a stronger HP esper). He's definitely supposed to be tankier than Relm & Shadow, what, with that absurd stamina of his. And he'd still get absurd stamina, but also some a little more HP to boot.

Might still be an idea that works best of Strago has an actual defensive use for stamina, but at least it isn't purely dependent on such.

Being a useful dip for his mag build is also very important, considering how late Odin is "generally" gotten.

I see where you are going, but I believe just about 5 points would make him too tanky for his design. HP is kind of a stat that easily escalates in powerlevel, isn't it?
With just 5 +15 HP ELs and, say, a Red Cap... Strago wouldn't really feel fragile at all anymore. Not tanky, sure - but he wouldn't be at risk of dying very often. I think this is precisely why he cannot have HP ELs, sound as that idea may... sound on paper.

2 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

No, Strago has no business Covering allies, not with his low p.def and HP. Sides, he's got Refract for that. HP is because HP is an actual, you know, tanking stat.

But everything that has access to HP ends up bulky. Something that Strago simply is not meant to be.

4 hours ago, thzfunnymzn said:

OK, I'm emotionally conflicted, b/c I'm happy that my Odin = HP/Stam idea is catching on.

Guess the idea is to make C/C Strago viable and give him the HP to survive it. It is strange how unnecessary Stam+2 is on Strrago, though... My Strago has 79 Stam with just 10 Carbuncle lvls.

 

8 minutes ago, Shax said:

People that enjoy Shadow aren't fucked because Relm doesn't need Intercepter.  It's an Easter egg bonus that kinda makes up for missing an entire character and simply makes a strong character even stronger. Not to mention the potential "teleporting dog" issues that could arise from any solution that allows both characters to have the dog at the same time. I mean if you really like both characters it certainly lets you have your cake and eat it too, but I personally don't see the need.

The need only arises when you talk about a Relm build that needs Interceptor. Getting Interceptor on her sacrifices too much(Highest dps, best image/haste setter, arguably best rerise setter, dispell user).
So yeah, you are fucked if you want a Relm build that relies on Interceptor, but still want to have Shadow.
I just go my happy-go-buggy way, for the time being.

Edit: Basically what that funny guy said

4 hours ago, Mr. Ultima said:

I think the Espers and spells are fine the way they are. Merton damaging allies and being elemental ties into Celes being the more strategic of the two, and same with Ultima being Terra's best spell. I would be in favor of obtaining Ragnarok before Kefka's Tower and have the eighth dragon drop Excalibur instead. However, I don't think it should be the water dragon that drops it because you already get Odin in the sunken keep. Besides, limiting Merton to be used only for the warring triad/Kefka fight would make the spell far worse then what it already is. Also, most of your points are simply for flavor reasons rather than actual gameplay reasons.

Flavouris a fun thing, though.
Aside from that: With Brave New World especially, everything gotten in kefka's tower feels a bit.... too late. I never liked "super endgame"-stuff myself - If I get stuff, I wanna actually use it.

I'll probably never use any Ragnarok ELs, simply cause it would be a hassle to get out of KTs tower, respecc Terra and then get to the same point again. That thought is kind of... saddening.

22 minutes ago, Shax said:

Relm can already get Interceptor without using a relic slot. It's what I always do because I've never enjoyed Shadow.

People that enjoy Shadow shouldn't just fucked, though. Luckily, I have a bug that gives both Relm AND Shadow interceptor at the same time. Nice bug.


Force Robe sounds like a good idea. Stats are up for discussion there. I also really like the idea of Sabin's elemental Blitzes being stam-based. Not much of a reason to not let one of his builds be able to spec into them: They'll still do work when appropriate on Vig Sabin even.

I'd be in favor of the switch. It makes a lot of sense in terms of themes and Ultima even feels like a spell more appropriate for Celes(To me, at least).
Don't think a ton of balance troubles would be cause if you'd also swap ELs and equipment benefits along with the switch, as well as location. Also, a sword giving +physical feels really fitting anyway.

On 11.6.2018 at 10:57 PM, thzfunnymzn said:

This. This so much. I'm so glad that someone else sees this issue.

Sounds like the solution is a "global" nerf to healing, revival, item healing, and MP restoration capabilities?

Healing really gets ubiquitous later into the game.
Anything with Cure 3 can serve the purpose of a "strong" healer.
Anything with high mag and cure 2 can serve as a "strong" healer.
And basically anyone is decent enough at backup healing.

And Sabin tends to take a lot of damage from enemies, too(Surviving thanks to his HP)... Which means: He REALLY wants heals. But he can't heal himself... Very counter-intuitive. Basically: Whenever I need healing, Sabin is not a good choice. After big AoEs, he is oftentimes in the biggest need of healing. Aside from that, I have no use for a medium AoE heal if I need a big single target heal.

Main problem I see is, that you have to get Vigor AND Magic for those weapons.
Add to that that most characters(That have the access) also want MP and, especially, HP. Speed is also kind of a "must take" stat for anyone that gets a +2 Esper.
If the character also wants to use cover/counter+Proc blades(Say, Celes), they also want stamina.
This simply overloads it.

5 hours ago, praetarius5018 said:

I'd suggest stepping away from the fixed weak/resist/null/abosrb categories and instead using a "affinity score" as the next damage multiplier;
reasoning behind this being that I know a lot of games treating multi-element attacks as several smaller attacks with one element each and then adding the result.
Also with the current model, getting weakness damage is only possible if the target is weak to ALL included elements.

Basically the pokemon formula, correct?