Barnacle_Ed

On 3/12/2020 at 11:00 PM, Nesouk said:

Also for Angela and Dark Carlie actually how about Magus + Evil Shaman just these 2 give you the most important Buffs and Debuffs and elemental damage, all you need is a Heal Light user as a third member.

EDIT : OK I finally test the Dwarf Village's Armor that allow to deny counter on Bill and Ben with Angela and... goddamn this armor is really in that particular fight for Angela, she can finally be relevant in this fight as thanks to this armor she proc Shadow Dive a lot less, as a result she can bombard spell as ever and geez just having Angela being able to do that make this fight a LOT faster, best way for this fight is probably coming on Salamando Day use the Steel Armlet for the physical hitter and Fireball with Angela.

I honestly thought for a long while about making Angela a Magus for my current party, but decided the AoE status effects and sabers of Rune Master won out. I think it'd do best with a Lord or Paladin with dual shields to draw aggro off the casters.

I'll have to remember the counter-deny armor the next time I play a caster-heavy playthrough on Bill And Ben...Kevin carried my current party hard in that fight without said armor 

I honestly think that Dervish, Arch Mage, Bishop party is going to out-preform my current Warrior Monk, Rune Master, Evil Shaman team overall. This group isn't bad by any means - it really excels on boss fights since they start with a decent percentage of their health knocked away by Evil Shaman's final weapon and Lunatic before you blast them with elemental spells up the wazoo - but even though the team has sabers it's pretty lacking in physical damage. Warrior Monks is also honestly a weaker healer than I expected it to be...this isn't a huge deal for this particular team however.

On the other hand, Arch Mage is a plenty strong solo caster to support Dervish and Bishop smacking things to death while saber'd up.

On 2/27/2020 at 11:13 PM, rpschamp said:

Paladin/Grand Divina/Nightblade gives you three low- or no-damage status/reflect spells and plenty of damage options; I may keep this file around in case I decide to go back to it. Since I haven't played a Paladin to his final weapon, could someone tell me what kind of damage to expect out of Turn Undead? Is there a spell level associated with it? Is it on par with Black Rain? Is it controlled by spirit or intelligence (or both)?

I passed my defense today, so I'm rewarding myself with a couple of beer/video game days this weekend before they start to look around for me back in lab :-) Time to finally get this Duran/Angela/Carlie team going!

Congrats on the thesis defense and hopefully this party has treated you well this weekend!

If I'm ranking Angela's classes for myself...I'd put Grand Divina on the bottom, if only because I feel like its identity is all over the place whereas her other 3 classes have more clear-cut roles. Magus is a boss killer and heavy nuker who doesn't need to rely on hitting weaknesses. Rune Master is a crowd clearer with LV3 elemental spells and elemental saber support for the party. Archmage is a debuffer and weakness-exploiting spell nuker. Divina is kind of a healer but also gets lv1 spells but also can do sabers eventually, but honestly I find it really rare that I personally want/need all of these things on a single character in a party. I'd rather make her a Rune Master then have a light Duran/Kevin if I want a nuker who can saber, or make her an Archmage then pair her with dark Duran or light Carlie for saber support in a magic team. It's cool that she has the option to fill many roles but I honestly would much rather have a better defined individual Angela who focuses hard on spell damage and leave the healing to someone else.

22 hours ago, rpschamp said:

The first thing for me to figure out is which of Angela's status spells work best with Duran's shield resist/reflect armor. Sleep Flower has a lot of potential here since it works on a bunch of late game enemies (including dragons and werewolves), does no damage when self-cast, casts quickly, and should not accrue aggro/hate when reflected. Rune Master has Petrify, Silence, Snowman, and Poison, but all of these come with level 3 spell damage when self-cast, take time to cast, and might better be used directly on mobs. Nightblade gets Silence and Poison on low level spells, so he could be good to pair with Grand Divina for more status/reflect options. This is what I was thinking with my current Duran/Angela/Hawk group, but I ended up missing the Angela/Carlie dual-caster effect too much (Shuriken costs way too much for early game Hawk, and holding out half the game for Black Rain didn't feel optimal).

Ah, I forgot that you're planning on a reflect armor strategy. I don't think the Rune Master makes a lot of sense in that case, for the reasons you've listed - she's fantastic as a standalone caster who fires damage spells directly on mobs after buffing the party with sabers but I agree her spells set doesn't really lend itself to a reflection strategy.

Nightblade seems like it would be interesting for sure; Blow Needles can also get the Curse upgrade in addition to the silence it causes, making it seem like a very compelling option for this plan.

No heal light sounds extremely bold...good luck!

Paladin/Rune Master/Necromancer seems like a plenty safe fallback if the Grand Divina party falls apart, Rune Master is pretty great and her sabers will also benefit most of Carlie's summons. I also wonder if you could make Angela a Magus instead here - you'd only have Saint and Dark sabers, but you pick up Lunatic and Ancient and Deathspell. Not sure if they're comparable in terms of damage at end game (I still haven't made a Magus party I've been happy with yet) but Lunatic is always nice for boss fights.

Aaaaaaaand I totally didn't see there was a 13th page to the thread now so I missed all the great replies from Nesouk and rpschamp. Good job, Ed.

I'll agree that Dervish, Bishop, Archmage sounds like an outstanding party with lots going for it.

On 2/18/2020 at 6:28 PM, Iejirisk said:

I got the mana collection on the switch and was...more than disappointed that none of the bugs were fixed which prompted me to go on the hunt for the rom heh. Came across the sin of mana and have been loving it so far. Struggling with a party I want to try though after all of the research on the mod itself.  So far I really want to run a Dervish. Always used god hand in the base game, looking for something different.  Trying my best to avoid angela and charlotte, which limits my options a decent bit.  At first I was thinking Lord(or Paladin maybe)/Starlancer as partners for my Dervish run, though I'm wondering how much one would miss the stat debuffs aside what the dervish gets. Any suggestions?

Welcome to the game and the forum  it honestly makes sense to me personally that they'd leave the game in the Collection unedited to "preserve it as it was released" but yeah Praetarius' excellent work here really improves the game a lot.

Personally I consider Mind Down and Power Down necessities in any party; they really reduce the incoming damage on boss fights. Angela (for Arch Mage) or Carlie (Evil Shaman) would give the party all stat downs, moon and leaf sabers, anti magic, and solid magic damage support. I'd pick one of them and add in Lise as Vanadise if I was going to play a Dervish party without restrictions. You could, of course, add in Dark Hawk or Lise instead and avoid casting Dervish's stat down altogether, or give him the debuff reversing armor for Def Up and Speed Up...though I don't see that latter plan working out particularly well since Light Duran already has Def Up in either form.

If you really want to avoid Angela and Carlie, I'd strongly suggest Paladin for the party since Def Up and Magic Shield will help a lot defensively and he has anti magic for those annoying physical-immune enemies. not having Tinkle Rain is pretty do-able in my experience tbh. I'd probably look at Ninja Master to round the party out from there - sure there's some overlap in stat downs, but you get MT elemental spells and he's a strong physical attacker who makes good use of sabers. With leaf, moon, dark, and saint sabers you have a lot of options for offensive buffs too! If you can live without Anti Magic and/or really want Tinkle Rain you could go for Vanadise instead of Paladin but I think the first class change will be really difficult with that team personally.

4 hours ago, rpschamp said:

At this point I'm thinking Light Duran, Dark Angela, Dark Carlie for power casting and status/reflect effects or Light Duran, Archmage, Sage for power casting and extra support spells (Aura Wave, Leaf Saber; not having to choose between Mind Up and elemental sabers). I may try a few options and play around a bit.

It's pretty hard to go wrong with a party that has Archmage and Sage in it IMO - Lord kind of seems like the better choice to me since you already have anti magic and he is a pretty strong melee fighter, plus speed up and speed down.

Dark Angela and Carlie is more fun to think about imo, but I've used both Lord and Archmage a lot alread. Necromancer and Paladin complement each other pretty well, but you only have Magic Shield and no Mind Up between the two of them...Magus might fit that party better than Rune Master since she can Mind Up herself and has Lunatic in her large arsenal of damage spells. Plus she also has dark force so she can use Magatama if you can't spare an accessory slot for Carlie.

EDIT: I almost forgot to mention, good luck with the thesis! It took me a LOT of effort to finish mine (to say nothing of defending it) but it was well worth it in the end.

On 2/10/2020 at 11:01 PM, Nesouk said:

My best pick for Swordmaster would be Fill Tech Bar x3 weapon, his LV3 Tech isn't as strong as Duelist but still quite powerfull, I feel this is the most reliable way to deal damage with him, IMO Swordmaster VS Duelist is trading some raw power and better self substain, for Speed Up, Saint Saber, Moon Saber and naturally MT Flame, Diamond, Ice and Thunder Sabers.

Lv3 tech spam seems good to me, so I'll be sure to pick up the fill tech bar sword for him. Since the party is going to have Archmage as well for heavy damage dealing (Vanadise isn't exactly a wimp either) I feel like I'd rather go Swordsman here personally. Fast MT saber cast for him -> Mind Up from Vanadise with whitelight ring -> Archmage throwing out spell of choice to hit elemental weakness seems like it'll wipe screens with ease and there's honestly no doubt about the bossfighting potential of this party. Plus it can actually use Magatama thanks to the Dark Force of Archmage!

On 2/8/2020 at 4:49 AM, Nesouk said:

Having played Duelist, Arch Mage, Vanadis I can assure than Arch Mage works wonder with Duelist, this is maybe one of the most "Boss killer" party even without Protect Down or Fireblaze with Saber of corresponding weakness on corresponding Day and Power Up and his Final Weapon Duelist does insane damage even hitting the 999 cap on some bosses, same with Arch Mage Mind Up + Mind Down + Saber + Corresponding Day and Weakness + Final Weapon with this 2 you just destroy most God Beasts with both ridiculous Physical and Magical damage. But yeah I also think Swordmaster would be a good teammate for Arch Mage. 

So, I had my heart set on doing a Duelist + Bishop setup for my Dark Duran playthrough...but Duelist/Swordsmaster, Archmage, Vanadise seems pretty great and like something I'd rather try out honestly. Especially since I did a team with Bishop not too long ago and I just so happen to have a save with a Duran Angela Lise party already  I'm kind of leaning towards Swordsmaster here just to try it out honestly. He can buff Archmage and Vanadise more quickly before throwing Energy Ball on himself then diving into the fray. I'm not gonna bother with his final weapon though...maybe I'll use the "increased critical damage" weapon.

I've realized the only downside to the Evil Shaman, Warrior Monk, Rune Master party - no dark spells to proc Curse with. I had mistakenly thought that Demon Breath was able to. Clearly I should have read the manuals more carefully! Still though, this party is just murdering god beasts. Evil Shaman's final weapon might be my new favorite thing about this mod, the lovely elemental nukes at my disposal just tear everything to pieces after a quick Lunatic cast. Kevin even deals half decent damage by stacking sabers and power up too.

48 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I don't think Bishop can be really compared to Grand Divina in terms of damage spells; Grand Divina gets the six major elements, ST or MT, and can cast these instantly by the end game. Bishop gets one element, which is great for dark enemies, bad for holy ones, and missing the 50% weakness bonus for the other four types. Grand Divina also gets Transshape and Sleep Flower, which should work great with the Duelist carrying a shield (Sleep Flower self-cast with Dragon Shield and reflect armor should put all attackers to sleep immediately). Bishop's healing is more convenient as it's naturally MT, but Grand Divina's is just as powerful. Plus, since all her damage spells are instant, she's always free to heal.

The advantage I see to Bishop is Protect Up and Magic Shield, but not much else. But as an atheist, I might be biased ;-) More seriously, I've only played Bishop in one group, going for Sage in most other situations, so I could be missing something.

IMO Bishop and Grand Divina serve two different purposes at the end of the day. Divina is a "healer who can also rapid-fire off damage spells and sabers" while Bishop is a "healer with defensive stat ups, sabers, and turns into a melee DPS machine with her final weapon" . I tend to prefer Bishop as a dedicated healer since Protect Up and Magic Shield are fantastic at keeping a party alive, and again she gets Holy Light at first class change which really helps speed leveling up early on. FWIW in my upcoming Duelist party I plan on using Bishop as the team's dedicated healer, and Hawk as a Ninja Master to cover debuffs and elemental damage.

44 minutes ago, rpschamp said:

I agree with this too, and I've used Lise in almost every party so far because of this. I think I've just gotten bored of her and started looking for non-Lise solutions. If I find any good ones I'll be sure to let everyone know ;-)

That's fair, I used Lise in basically every team I ran in the base game and got sick of her as well for a while  the good news is it's much easier to build a functional party without her in this rom hack!

1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

I think Gran Divina in Duelist, Gran Divina, Evil Shaman team is mainly for Gran Divina being able to heal, and once you get her Final Weapon she can replace Duelist to buff with Sabers freeing Duelist from this duty (freeing an accessory slot cause Duelist need Whitelight Ring to make Saber MT) allowing to focus on physical damage, Aura Wave and Anti Magic if needed so IMO Gran Divina isn't a bad choice here.

IMO Angela can fit well with Duelist :
-Arch Mage : Give Aura Wave allowing to free Duelist from having to cast it and get boosted by Duelist's Saber (on top of her Final Weapon increasing the damage even further)
-Rune Master : Free Duelist from Sabers duty and can cripple the ennemies for Duelist (Silence preventing ennemies to counter Duelist's LV3, Snowman increasing the damage of the next incoming hits), IMO Rune Master is Angela most self-substain class.
-Magus : Give Power Up to Duelist to increase his damage even further, Lunatic to shorten the fight, Deathspell is still an option and good elemental damage overall, and potentially the best nuker with her Final Weapon.

Now, while I agree that Duelist is pretty self-sufficient, I still have to stick to my earlier point that it's tough to justify any Angela in a party with him over someone else. Unless, of course, you want a challenge.

Grand Divina: Yeah she gets HL, TR, speed up, decent casting of all LV1 damage spells, and eventually all sabers...but honestly Bishop does nearly all of the same things better and earlier. Divina has the edge in damage spells, sure, but Bishop still has Saint Beam and you can always make up for this with your final party member.

Rune Master: Again, Bishop does sabers better. I will agree that MT'ing silence or snowman is outstanding and that this class is pretty great - I'm getting some great mileage from her in my current team - but her complete lack of stat magic would probably make for a tough playthrough (or require a LOT of farming to compensate for)

Magus: Magus + Duelist is definitely a ballsy all-out damage team. Whatever healer you pick for the group will certainly have their hands full  I feel like this party would also struggle in the stat magic department, even with her Power Up.

Arch Mage, as I said earlier, I could at least see an argument for. Aura Wave and Anti Magic means Duelist doesn't have to waste his time casting them anymore. Useful stat downs for boss fights. Strong damage spells that, as you said, all benefit really from the Duelist's sabers - especially with her final weapon. However, I must wonder if Swordmaster would be a better partner for the Arch Mage in general!

51 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

Well Lise is more meant to be a jack of all trick, so definitly when you are looking for physical damage Dark Duran is the best pick of the 2, having all buffs on one party member is convenient tough, and while they are buyable, deep down it's easier to just have them directly than having to do extra grind for them even if the later is definitly possible.

By the way we are talking about Duelist but I think Swordmaster would fit even better in a Magical Oriented team, as he get absolutly all the Sabers and the 4 main one are naturally MT, if he can't get Duelist's raw power his LV3 is actually still pretty strong plus let's not forget that Speed Up also reduce the cast time, so this can be quite a good buff for spellcaster, Swordmaster, Arch Mage, Sage could work very well.

I fully agree with both of these points.

Lise is a strong and flexible character that, to me, is meant more as a "force multiplier" that makes a good party even better rather than necessarily hard-carrying the party by herself. She's the glue that can fill any cracks you might have in terms of stat magic or healing or Anti Magic in a team since she can spec into any of of these as needed. It's pretty tough for me to imagine a group she would seem out-of-place in.

I've actually toyed with the idea of doing a Swordmaster, Arch Mage, Vanadise run eventually. Vanadise's final weapon means that her Freya summon can do elemental damage when she gets the saber buff. Arch Mage, as discussed above, makes great use of sabers for her damage spells. Though I'm not a fan of Swordmaster's final weapon, there's plenty of other options for him at end game (ignore physical immunity, HP steal, increased counter damage, and faster tech bar all come to mind). Though you have to go through Bucca Island without heals, you'll at least have Evil Gate. The only other drawbacks of this party are no way to reduce enemy HP and no Protect Down, meaning boss fights might drag on, but other than that it's super straightforward.

15 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

I suspect that the event system wouldn't like that very much.

Any takers for 3x Kevin in that scenario?

Triple Death Hand party, easy 

On 2/6/2020 at 10:27 AM, rpschamp said:

So, I've decided to go with Duran/Angela/Carlie instead. I want to keep the concept of a magic-focus team, and Duran (especially dark Duran) seems like a good compromise between the physical damage of Hawk and the defensive tactics of Lise. I would love to run Duelist here; his tech damage should be able to compete with anything Hawk can put out.

So far I'm thinking:

1) Duelist, Grand Divina, Evil Shaman

Really not a fan of Grand Divina in this party. Honestly idk if having Angela in a Duelist party makes a lot of sense in the first place...maybe an argument could be made for Archmage as a debuffer but I'd honestly rather have someone that can Protect Down instead. I'd suggest replacing the Divina with Warrior Monk for Mind Up, Power Up, Speed Down, and a stronger Heal Light. Alternatively you could make Carlie a Bishop (Def Up, Magic Shield, and sabers are basically all the buffs you should need for Duelist honestly) and dark Hawk or Lise as a debuffer.

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2) Paladin, Rune Master, Necromancer

This is better than the party above. Necromancer's summons have elemental properties - except for Great Demon - so the sabers from Rune Master should let Carlie put out some decent damage after she casts Black Curse. Still, no Mind Up to help the casters deal even more damage kind of sucks...you could always farm up a bunch of Sahagin's Scales for bosses since Rune Master wipes crowds with ease I guess. Or consider making Angela a Magus instead, since she can Mind Up herself and you'll still have Saint Saber.

EDIT: Thinking about it a little more, Magus in this party seems really solid. She can Power Up Paladin's physical attacks, Lunatic bosses, and keep up her own MP with Poison Bubble while hurling out loads of strong damage spells. This does mean no sabers for Necromancer's summons...but really Carlie's primary use here is for Black Curse, Tinkle Rain, and applying the Curse debuff anyways!

21 hours ago, Nesouk said:

This one could work to :

-Paladin, Arch Mage, Sage : Sage and Paladin cover Mind Up and Protect Up, Paladin also has Magic Shield to strengthen Carlie's Heal Light, they are both great healer having 2 Healer can actually be usefull in some situation, or you are free to play one or the other more offensively, Paladin can do pretty good physical damage and FST LV3 (which Arch Mage can help with Aura Wave) or serious AoE Neural damage with Turn Undead and he is a really good tank, Sage can assist Arch Mage for more magical damage, also this team get the 5 out 6 main Sabers save for Dark Saber and Arch Mage get Anti Magic, Power and Mind Down and powerfull magic damage. 

I do like double-healer parties tbh; it adds an extra safety blanket in the event that things go horribly wrong or if you're bad at this game (like me!) - I did a Lord, Arch Mage, Warrior Monk playthrough fairly recently and it was smooth sailing through basically the whole game. Sage + Arch Mage is a good combo with a lot going for it. I still have to try out Paladin in this rom hack but his final weapon looks great, especially when the ladies in this party also have strong MT spells. If I wasn't already set on my next party I'd consider trying this one.

Nightblade is definitely the better boss fighter and double T3 spam with Aura Wave could be fun. I feel like this group is going to need the MT jutsus from Ninja Master more though since its spell support is otherwise pretty lacking. Plus, there's the potential option of giving Duelist the Fireblaze as Ninja Master hits elemental weaknesses with his final weapon to help this team pump out more damage.

I've got time to think about it for sure.

Gildervine dead in my Evil Shaman, Warrior Monk, Runemaster game. Smooth sailing so far...Bill And Ben were somewhat challenging (mostly because I'm a dummy and forgot casting on them was a bad idea) but everything else has been smooth sailing.

Thought about it a while longer and I think I'd rather go dark Duran instead of light Hawk for next run. Been doing a lot of caster parties recently. So with that in mind I'm now planning Duelist, Bishop, and Ninja Master. 

Duran is mostly going to use anti magic and aura wave (maybe leaf saver on Carlie at times) so the overlap on sabers isn't a big deal. Bishop turns into another strong attacker at end game, plus she has magic shield and def up in addition to magic support if needed. Dark Hawk does the usual dark Hawk thing of jutsus - Ninja Master means better AoE, which this party needs, and easier counter enabling for Fireblaze on bosses.

The group lacks power up but it does have sabers instead. It also lacks Lunatic so bosses may take a little longer than my current team. The play style seems super straightforwards though.

54 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

I feel Lord really gonna be interesting to play for counter base strategy as far as I tested there is to way to profit from his Final Weapon :

-You set him and the character you want to counter (in my case Hawk) on "don't use tech" setting, take control of character you want to counter, constantly check if Duran has his LV2/3 ready, when that's the case and your character is ready to throw his LV1 quickly switch to Duran for casting his LV2/3 then use your LV1 on the target.

-Take control of Duran, set your counter on "Using his LV1 Tech", when you can initiate the LV2/3 wait for the other character to have enough tech point or his LV1, as soon as he get access to LV1 throw the LV2/3 with Duran and let the CPU do the counter.

Really like that as you have to pay attention to use this weapon efficiently, this is gonna be fun, I think maybe I should buy for Hawk the weapon that increase Counter Damage when facing bosses where Hawk can't exploit weakness could give some interesting result.

Sounds like a lot of micromanagement to me personally  since I'm lazy I'll probably just have the AI use Duran and cast lv2 tech whenever it's ready, manually control Lise as FK to time counters more effectively, then have Wanderer casting in the background as much as possible in the meantime. Admittedly the Half-Vanish spam is still going to be micromanage-y with this setup however...

You know what maybe I'll wind up just doing Necromancer instead of FK after all!

10 hours ago, Nesouk said:

For Gorva when I was running Duran, Kevin and Hawk what I found the accessories that makes weapon elemental to be usefull when you don't have a solid spell caster (Hawk can work tough with either Shuriken or Arrow), you can pick up an accessory that make your physical attack elemental (Dwarf Village sells the one that make Element Fire and is quite cheap, the Merchant on the Ghost Ship sells the one that make element Wind), make sure to go on the Ship on the corresponding day of this accessory and your physical fighter will be able to do some decent damage against Gorva (especially if you debuff his defense), the main point is since you will have to use Stardust Herb to cancel Black Curse, Buffs and Sabers spell are useless but this accessories gives you element regardless of Stardust so you get a bonus damage from it, combine with Speed Down and physical fighter can actually perform reasonnably on this fight.

The ideal for mid game if you don't have AoE spells is to be good at Counter, try to regroup the mobs in one place and use a LV1 Tech to hit them all it is quite effective ^^, for Bucca Island maybe the Bunny Egg accessory from Dwarf Village could be usefull for physical fighter, never tried myself but since it give Shadow Element to your physical attack and most ennemies in Seashore Cave are weak to Dark this might be worth a try. Also casting Protect Up with Knight is definitly something to do, debuffing Speed is good on mob fight since they use a lot of physical.

Changing weapon element for Gorva is a good idea, in the case where one has to rely heavily on physical attackers for the fight. And yeah cancelling the black curse he does is a key part of the fight in any party IMHO! That's a good point about Bunny Egg for Bucca Island, I honestly forgot is existed...methinks I'll have to make use of that in my next playthrough.

Honestly, I briefly thought about it since Lord + FK is a party mix I've been wanting to try out for counterattack shenanigans. 

My big gripe with this party though is it won't have any AoE spells after first class change and needs to wait until Whitelight Rings at the absolute earliest, which is kind of annoying. Ranger at least has Spikes for Tzenker, but no holy balls for Gorva might be rough.

I'll agree that jt looks neat at end game but the group might struggle before the 2nd class change. And even then it doesn't really pick up until getting final weapons on everyone. So I'm a little hesitant on it.

I will say that my Delvar definitely maxed out on damage faster than Sorceress; pumping INT, AGI, and LCK first means she was able to pump out 200-ish level 1 AOE damage through bucca island even without Evil Gate. I'm a big fan of Monk as well (Kevin in the early game pumps out silly amounts of damage) and any Holy Ball caster helps out a ton with the annoying Gorva. I'm now right around the corner from second class change after really taking my time to get there - life's been busy and I haven't had much play time!

Currently for my run after this I want to do a playthrough with a light Hawk, since I somehow haven't yet used either of his light forms in this rom hack yet. Kind of leaning towards Wanderer since Half Vanish spam seems like a lazy way to quickly chip away at a boss. Which appeals to me 

I'm debating between 2 parties atm but I totally appreciate other suggestions:

1) Wanderer, Bishop, Fenrir Knight. More of an attacker party with Wanderer providing support. We don't need empowered anti magic since Bishop has all elemental sabers and saint saber, plus she does a lot of melee damage with her final weapon. FK is a mana battery in long fights with her final weapon and her summon puts whole screens to sleep (though I guess Sleep Flower kind of does the same thing but without any damage). We've got Def Up, Mind Up, Magic Shield, and all debuffs...but no Speed Up - I'm not sure if that's a problem for Wanderer at and game or if he can hit the cast speed threshold without Speed Up for maximum Half Vanish spam. 

2) Wanderer, Lord, Necromancer. More caster focused than the top party but the Lord is a reasonably decent melee combatant with a PIE-based weapon. This party has Speed Up which again might be important, but we do lose out on elemental sabers (dark saber is way less useful than a full elemental saber package, of course). Necro can still do elemental spells with her summons and they should hit pretty hard with Black Curse, Mind Up, and her final weapon. Plus she's a backup Tinkle Rain caster. Doesn't have the mana restore from a countering Fenrir Knight, but Tree Spirit rings and Poison Bubble exist.

It's worth noting that neither party has access to a FST so the Aura Wave from Wanderer isn't particularly well utilized. I don't see any particularly glaring weaknesses otherwise but I might have missed something obvious!

That's a fair point on deathspell "spam" (idk if I'd really call it spammable at a whopping 20MP cost) being the ultimate ez modo caster setup. Nice all-female team too.

I hit the first class change for my Evil Shaman-Warrior Monk-Rune Master playthrough and there's a very small part of me that wonders if I should have made Angela a Grand Divina instead...I forget how long level 2 spells take to cast at lower levels and the Divina still gets sabers, albiet much later than the Rune Master. It's a good reminder to me to pump Angela's AGI later on. Definitely before she gets to MT LV3 spells.

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

curse:
20% chance to suffer bonus damage for element of the day on any day even if normally not possible (e.g. light and dark spells). Additionally weapon damage is always shared with 100%.

pressure:
victim becomes harder to heal, useful e.g. to prevent silver knights from healing themselves to full every 2 seconds

Awesome. Thanks for the info boss, I can now see why Curse is now highly sought after.

Two quick questions that I'm sure have been addressed in the past (and I think are related) but I can't seem to find a definitive answer for.

First, what exactly is the "Curse" upgrade from  Magatama? It's my understanding that it debuffs enemies and is only applied to Dark element spells, but I cannot seem to find the specifics.

Second, similarly, what is the "Pressure" upgrade from  Cardinal Eye? Is it basically the Light spell equivalent of Curse?

That's true, Sage can do elemental sabers on Archmage in a worst case. Plus both of them also get Dark Force which tears the few holy enemies in game to pieces.

With that said, it of feels like a "lazier" version of the party I'm currently running (Evil Shaman, Warrior Monk, Rune Master) in that it would mostly be reliant on Saint Beam spam instead of picking the right element for the job. Plus no Lunatic or Evil Shaman final weapon means bosses will take a longer. Might be nice as a beginner caster party since it seems pretty forgiving though.

I'll need to try a more supportive tank Paladin build at some point, that sounds fun.

Maybe I'll use the newfound knowledge of sabres affecting spells to try and get a strong Saint Beam party going...Paladin Archmage Sage actually sounds half decent! I'm not sure if it needs the improved Anti Magic of Dragon master since not many enemies have Holy resistance right?

TBH I feel like Lord is more of a support class than Paladin, at least in the general case when not going for a counterattack party. Paladin gets FST and non-elemental Turn Undead with final weapon so Duran has a few nice attacks at end game. Lord when I pick him basically is "MTTR MTHL DefUp and SpeedUp" without much offensive upside. I'll admit that I haven't done any counter shenanigans using his final weapon however...I usually throw on a sword that uses PIE for damage calculation and call it a day.

If you want to go all-in on a counter strategy I feel like Fenrir Knight or God Hand are the most attractive options of the bunch listed here. Fenrir seems really interesting TBH - the buff overlap with Lord kind of sucks but between her final weapon counters and moon saber you probably won't need to heal too often. God Hand feels like it'll be less all-in on countering and jutsu->FST seems like a reasonable way to damage a screen full of enemies, plus he still has moon saber and power up. 

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'm now giving an Evil Shaman, Warrior Monk, Rune Master party a whirl on Carlie's quest. Should make great use of those elemental sabers!

On 1/15/2020 at 11:54 PM, Nesouk said:

Evil Shaman spells are also elemental so she also benefit from the Sword Master's Sabers, the difference being that she hit less harder than Arch Mage and her spell are ST only for the most part, however she get Protect Up, Transshape and Lunatic so between Arch Mage and Evil Shaman it's really a matter of losing some Raw Power for a little more utility, Evil Shaman also has a good Final Weapon that reduce ennemies stat even on boss independantly of buff (best benefit for bosses being reduce HP max by 12.5% which stack with Lunatic for a total of 30% HP Max reduction so a boss that has let say 10000HP Max will be reduce to 7000 just like that, to put even more on perspective with final boss Arch Demon has 31760 max HP so that would put him at 22232 almost 10000HP less so that's quite significant).

Now, I do like Evil Shaman especially for that final weapon of hers - even if I didn't realize how significant the stat and health reduction can be on bosses. I honestly don't see the class as being a high-damage spell caster though. Even with the effect of Sabers she seems more of like a supportive caster to me but she's a great supporter; Demon Breath, Ghost Road, Protect Up, and Transshape give her a lot of utility as you said.

I honestly feel like Angela as a Rune Master might be a better way to do sabers with Evil Shaman - then you have 2 really strong spell casters who can both take advantage of elemental sabers for spellcasting purposes. Add on a healer with Mind Up (eg: either Light Kevin, though God Hand has to use buff invert armor and both need whitelight ring) and you should basically be good right? That does mean having to use the honestly-inferior Delvar instead of Sorceress for Angela's first class change, but Enchantress still brings Holy Ball and Monk is just good period so that seems like a fine party. Even if it completely misses the initial point of "a swordsman party"