Barnacle_Ed

Definitely made a bad typo and that "Lise defeats the purpose of Light Carlie" should have read "Replacing Arch Mage with Dark Carlie's Evil Shaman" - I've edited my post. My bad. I fully agree that Bishop and Swordmaster don't belong in the same party though.

I'd also forgotten that Vanadise is now ST buffs only since I never use the class tbh; Star Lancer just feels so much better most of the time I'm considering a Light Lise in a party.

With all that said and taken into consideration: Sage does seem appealing for a caster party since, as you said, she brings much more to the table than her sabers. Mind Up is always helpful and Life Booster is quite good too. No Def Up in the party might be problematic however, but I guess the same would be true with any party featuring a light Kevin instead!

1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

Vanadis is a good pick, but yeah you have to manage without Heal Light until LV43, so unless grinding up to Gildervine at least, that's indeed quite brutal but at least Arch Mage mean you get Sorceress has a middle class which IMO is the best middle class in the game access to Holy Ball makes the Ghost Ship very easy, Holy Ball also makes this goddamn Cockabird more manageable and then Evil Gate make Bucca Island Cave a lot more easy due to almost everything in this cave being weak to Darkness, this Cave is an Evil Gate spam with Sorceress, and after Bucca Island early access to the Curse upgrade which makes mob fight a lot more easy.

Alternativly tough you could replace Arch Mage by Dark Carlie's Evil Shaman you lose Spell damage and Aura Wave but Evil Shaman has Power Down, Mind Down (through Ghost Road and Demon Breath) and Anti Magic also has spell of each element that Swordmaster can boost except Dark but ST Only outside of Holy Ball, Ghost Road and Demon Breath but she has Transshape (for Transshape + Shield combo with Duran), Protect Up and Lunatic, then by picking up Light Kevin you can get Mind Up (either directly with Warrior Monk or through God Hand's Counter Magic to get the defensive part of it) as well as Power Up and have a healer.

I fully agree that Sorceress is the best middle class, and farming Bucca Island for ??? Seeds (which Sorceress makes super easy thanks to Evil Gate) really helps with the second class change. Replacing Arch Mage with Dark Carlie's Evil Shaman kind of defeats the purpose of Swordsman here right? Since the main idea of "Arch Mage's elemental spells with Swordsman's elemental sabers" sounds most intriguing of the ideas here so far. So that effectively means one of Vanadise, Sage, or a Light Kevin for healing.

All of these can get pretty easy access to Mind Up, though of course Sage and Vanadise don't need to use items to MT it. And everything but Vanadise means some slight overlap in sabers, but Vanadise means not getting Heal Light until really late as discussed...

1 hour ago, praetarius5018 said:

this only applies to this mod, so you are excused

Hooray for me being exused!

59 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

Yes Saber increase the damage of the spells of the corresponding element as well, Arch Mage can therefore deal some serious damage if you combine her final weapon, Saber, Mind Up, Mind Down and Corresponding Day she can no joke almost hit the damage cap on bosses that has a weakness with such set up (Rogue can also get a similar set up with his Final Weapon).

It speaks volumes about the depth of the mechanics of this game and/or my own ignorance if I'm still learning things about it after all these years ^^

Given that sabers boost magic damage, Arch Mage with Swordsman seems like a great fit! Now what would make a good healer for this setup? Sage seems reasonable enough as discussed earlier. I still lean towards God Hand however. I also have to wonder if Vanadise would make sense; stat ups are always nice, even if not having Heal Light until second class change is kind of brutal.

1 hour ago, Nesouk said:

Leaf Saber isn't really needed you can replace it with Tree Spirit Ring or just use Rune Earrings once you get enough AGI and the Helm that reduce cast time, casting from HP is good cause managing your HP is just so much easier than managing MP, meanwhile having Saber for each element for +20% IIRC damage bonus on Angela's spell is always valuable, even better once you get Arch Mage's Final Weapon.

As for Light Carlie I think Sage is a better pair with Swordmaster than Bishop, Swordmaster just completly negate the need for Sage to wear a Whitelight Ring for making Sabers MT that is taken care of by Swordmaster, and with Saint Beam and Dark Force she has 2 spells that can be boost by Swordmaster, also Life Booster, Heal Light, Mind Up, Tinkle Rain and her very good final weapon.

Dragon Master I feel actually negate the purpose of having all sabers in the first place, with her weapon her Anti Magic make ennemies that have a weakness weak to everything, so technically you really only need 1 Saber (either works) with her for your physical fighters.

For Kevin I think Warrior Monk is a better choice just for the convenience of having Power Up and Mind Up without the need of Invert Armor Warrior Monk + Sword Master could go well with Dark Hawk (either tough I think I would choose Nightblade just for screen cleaning ability with MT Shuriken and Black Rain as well as his ability to reduce max HP, set Curse upgrade and inflict Silence on the troublesome mob that can use tech like the Knight type) if you want a manpower team.

Regarding Leaf Saber: The whole motivation for going with Warrior Monk on that playthrough is because I got frustrated relying on items for MP leech effects with an Angela-Duran-Hawk party  2 healers and a spell spammer with infinite mana makes bosses a lot easier when you're bad at this game like me. Do sabers affect spell damage as well? I was under the (likely incorrect) impression they only affected melee attacks.

Sage would definitely be better than Bishop for a Swordmaster party. I still think it'd be worse off than either of Kevin's light classes, but I do like the HP regen from the Sage's final weapon. Plus it would mean some badly-needed spell support and Mind Up.

Fair point on Dragon Master being better in a 1-saber party. Now that I think about it Arch Mage would probably be better as an Anti-Magic caster instead for spell support, Mind Down, and Power Down. And the elemental weakness damage bonus from her final weapon, as you said. Certainly seems more compelling than Wanderer to me.

Swordmaster, Warrior Monk, Nightblade seems like it would be a solid all-male team. Strong boss-fighting potential for sure.

VIT is going to be important for everyone in any class. I try and shoot for 25-ish by endgame on most characters, maybe a little more for anyone who's going to be using a shield and a target for monster hate.

Ninja Master: Your main debuffer so you want him to have fast cast time and to unlock his all jutsus asap. That means PIE (also improves magic defense) and AGI (also improves jutsu damage, chance to hit, and attack speed) respectively.

Vanadise: Your healer and buffer, so again you want her to have fast cast times and a big Heal Light. That means INT for the former, then LUCK and/or PIE for the latter. PIE is probably more important, however, since it also boosts magic defense and unlocks her spells.

Duelist: This is where things get interesting imo. Ideally you want him to cast Anti-Magic and a saber on himself then go attack which means high INT (or a Sage Stone but that'll deplete all his MP with one cast) for cast speed. As a strong attacker class he needs STR and AGI for damage and accuracy in melee. Then everyone needs some VIT and PIE to stay alive. I'd probably stop investing in INT at 18 once he gets Aura Wave, then focus AGI and defensive stats for a while. You only really "need" Anti-Magic in 2 or 3 boss battles so you can bring a few MP-restoring items for those fights.

On 1/11/2020 at 2:10 PM, Nesouk said:

-Swordmaster, Warrior Monk, Arch Mage

Needless to say Arch Mage enjoy the Sabers from Swordmaster to boost her spells, while Swordmaster enjoy her Aura Wave, Warrior Monk act as the main healer and bring Power Up and Mind Up the only buff lacking is again Protect Up. Arch Mage has Power Down and Mind Down so that's taken care of as well as Aura Wave and Anti Magic and strong magical damage.

FWIW the last Duran-Angela-Kevin party I went with was Lord, Warrior Monk, Archmage since I found that leaf saber from Warrior Monk was great for keeping everyone's MP topped off; I'm not sure if an Angela-focused party really "needs" another saber at all tbh. Plus, having 2 healers was useful in emergencies. Worked decently well but I'm sure it could be improved on!

I feel like a Swordmaster party is going to want light Kevin (probably as God Hand) since he can heal while still taking great advantage of the sabers. Carlie as a Bishop can also do a ton of damage with her final weapon, but then you have an overlap on all the elemental sabers which kind of defeats the purpose of going Swordmaster in the first place...I'm personally not a fan of going into Bucca Island without Heal Light, but Lise as Vanadise could also be an option and she also has stat magic.

If you really want Anti Magic in the team, Dragon Master seems like a strong choice from there as Lise is also a heavy hitter who also brings MT debuffs to the table. Alternatively you could go for one of Hawk's dark forms for an all-male party with Kevin healing, as Hawk also make good use of the sabers while still providing debuffs and spell support from his jutsus.

TLDR I think Swordmaster, God Hand, Dragon Master would be a decent party. Doesn't have much spellcasting power outside of Lise's summon but honestly I don't think it needs more than that. Throw sabers then power up on the team, MT def down enemies, and go ham!

Angela as a main character seems great since all of her classes have been changed up pretty significantly. I also like the Arch Mage since she gets a number of great spells.

If the goal of the LP is to show what's different in the mod I'm less enthusiastic about light Kevin and Duran though, to be honest. They still feel like "heal bots who can still throw a punch" to me, which is well and good but basically the same niche they were in during Vanilla SD3.

Light Carlie might be more interesting, especially as a Bishop where she becomes a powerful melee fighter herself! 

I did say it was a dumb question and that I probably missed something obvious, in my defense  thanks bossman.

Dumb question inbound.

I'm finally getting around to trying out some of the "converts buffs to debuffs and vice versa" items and I'm finding that I'm having issues with targeting now. I'm trying to cast Power Down on my allies with the reversing item equipped but it still says only "one/all enemies" as acceptable targets and I can't hit my allies with the spell even after cycling through all possible targets. It does cast Power Up on enemies when I use i however.

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here. Any advice?

Guess I'm just forgetting things in my old age then  320 max damage on bosses still seems reasonable enough for endgame tbh. Especially for a support-focused Wanderer.

Wait, Half Vanish does work on bosses? I've always heard that it does not but Lunatic works instead. That's how I remember it anyways...

Lise with a shield seems perfect for that setup. Good idea.

24 minutes ago, Nesouk said:

Must admit that Wanderer doesn't appeal to me most of his ability seems to situationnal, altough Half Vanish with his Final Weapon look crazy strong and he is one of the only 2 classes (other being Magus) that learn Poison Bubble the offensive Leaf Elemental spell.

I unfortunately have to agree that most of the Wanderer abilities are pretty low impact, especially since dark Lise can also bring anti magic in this party. The boosted half vanish is cool, but AFAIK still won't work on bosses and is only ST...

I was thinking of giving him a weapon that scales with spirit so he can do a decent autoattack after throwing out all his buffs; energy ball and sabres should help him do decent damage to a def-downed anti magic'ed boss after opening with Lunatic. Should.

On 7/6/2019 at 1:31 AM, Nesouk said:

Hawk as Rogue - Carlie as Evil Shaman - Kevin as Warrior Monk

Rogue and Evil Shaman get all debuff through their abilities (Def Down with Cutter Missile, Speed Down with Landmine, Power Down with Ghost Road and Mind Down with Demon Breath)
The team also get all buff (Speed Up with Rogue, Def Up with Evil Shaman and Power Up and Mind Up with Warrior Monk).
Anti-Magic with Evil Shaman. Reduce Max HP option with Rogue and Evil Shaman. Heal Light with Warrior Monk, Tinkle Rain with Evil Shaman.
Rogue also get MT Sleep Flower and Body Change which seems good for Crowd Control, also seems that by increasing his Luck, PIE and INT he could be a powerfull pseudo-mage (especially with his final weapon) boosting his Luck could also makes him valuable with weapon that inflict Statut Effect.
This team seems promising the only thing it misses are Saber spells, having only Leaf Saber (which admitadly is a good one tough).

What do you think ?

I've been thinking about doing a light Hawk playthrough at some point and this sounds like a neat team to try it out with  I always forget that Cutter Missile and Landmine have built-in debuffs. Makes Rogue even more appealing.

Although what I was currently thinking of for said party before your post was: Wanderer, Bishop, Fenrir Knight. Attacker party with elemental sabers, saint saber, moon saber, two Transshape casters, all debuffs, Def Up, and all of Wanderer's nifty tricks up his sleeve. It's too bad Wanderer no longer has Counter Magic, but he does have Mind Up...does Magic Shield stack with that? I forget. Also not having a FST to take advantage of aura wave kind of sucks, but MT Sleep Flower + Holy Ball and whacking things to death should be "fine" for crowds.

On 6/30/2019 at 1:02 PM, blackrabite said:

Anybody mind with a quick review of this setup (playing on Normal):

Duran - Lord (heals, buffs, energy ball)

Hawkeye - Ninja Master (crit damage, debuffs)

Angela - idk between Rune Master or Magus

I'm late in my reply but, FWIW, in my Angela + Duran playthrough i wound up doing Lord, Archmage, Nightblade. Archmage brings a lot of neat tools to the table (including the all powerful anti magic) and with the armor that turns debuffs into buffs, you have all 4 stat ups between her and Lord. Nightblade hits harder than ninja master so its a personal preference for me as I like bosses to go faster. Obviously thats a no-go if you made Angela a Delvar at first class change though.

EDIT: Regarding a Death Hand party, I usually struggle with making dark Kevin work since i usually like to make him a healer tbh. I'd think you would want light Duran (light Carlie makes less sense since you already have elemental sabres) and a strong debuffer. Maybe something like Paladin (heals, saint sabre, anti magic, and some buffs) with Necromancer (crowd control, TR, and the wonderful black curse)? Just spitballing ideas.

I'm glad to hear that Bishop is, apparently, crazy strong with her final weapon and her stat allocation is simple - makes me more confident in the Carlie+Kevin party.

For Angela+Duran I've decided on Carlie there as well. Arch Mage, Lord, and Sage (as per a suggestion in the old thread) seems neat...if a little lacking in raw damage. With mind up and down, though, both casters should hit pretty hard!

Finally I'm now trying to avoid Carlie in the final Lise+Hawk party since I'd prefer to avoid using her 3 times over. And I'd also like to have anti magic. I'm considering making hawk a Wanderer (since I've never tried it and it looks interesting) then adding in something like Dervish to change things up a bit. 

Clearly I need to re-review all the potential items for each character. Thanks for the explanation. I guess to make sure I'm being clear, I'm not hell-bent on having Kevin in the party nor am I dead set on having Angela as Arch Mage (though it does seem like a strong class). This is definitely some food for thought however.

12 minutes ago, praetarius5018 said:

can this typo finally die please? I've read my name wrong in exactly this way so many times, it ceased to be funny 3 years ago.

Whoops. My bad dude, edited original post to fix my typo 

I totally forgot to check the endgame gear for each character...good to know that God Hand's final armor and Bishop's final weapon do some interesting stuff. I'll have to check out the others as well. Thanks for the build feedback! Quick question on the Angela/Duran/Kevin party though: Will not having leaf saber for Angela be a liability in longer fights?

Hi folks, found out about this patch fairly recently and I'm finally getting around to trying it. Thanks Praetorius Praetarius for your hard work on it! I noticed that there was a party discussion thread on the InsaneDifficulty archives but I also understand that some of the character classes have changed since several of these party recommendations were made, so I was hoping to start a new thread of party ideas for my first couple of playthroughs here. I hope people are actually still reading this forum since it feels kind of quiet on here. 

I'm planning to do is 1 playthrough for each of the "plot pairs" for a total of 3 playthroughs (Angela+Duran+x, Carlie+Kevin+x, and Hawk+Lise+x), and I wanted to make sure that the parties I'm working with will at least be semi-viable for this goal. I think I have a party set for my first run but I'm not sure about the subsequent ones yet. Here's what I got so far but I greatly appreciate any constructive criticism:

Angela (main character) as Arch Mage, Duran as Lord, Kevin as Dervish.

Arch Mage brings a lot to the table with Anti-Magic, 2 debuffs, Aura Wave, and lots of AoEs. The Dervish seems to be a natural companion for it since it has the other 2 stat downs, leaf saber for MP, moon saber for HP, and the physical strength that Angela is lacking to keep the party more balanced. The Lord then acts as healer, has 2 of the 4 stat ups, Life Booster to keep Angela alive, and Energy Ball to help Kevin hit harder  - there's overlap on the Speed Down debuff but that's the only bit of overlap I could find for the party.

The big downsides here are no Power Up, Mind Up, elemental sabers, and Lunatic which means that bosses might take a while to kill...but otherwise I'm pretty happy with how this looks on paper. Plus I've never played through Angela's story before and I'm looking forward to it!

Carlie (main character) as Bishop, Kevin as God Hand, Lise as Dragon Master.

Bishop seems like the ultimate support class with MTHL, MT tinkle rain, MT elemental sabers, ST saint saber, Def Up, and - as an added bonus - the almighty Turn Undead spell which should be very useful in Carlie's quest. I'm not totally sure about making Kevin a God Hand but it means having an off-healer, Power Up, a second saint saber caster, and he's a pretty strong attacker to boot. Finally, the Dragon Master is strong defensively and another pretty good attacker who also has all the stat downs and anti-magic.

I'm really not sure about this party since Bishop and God Hand together feels kind of redundant. Suggestions appreciated!

Hawk (main character) as Ninja Master, Lise as Vanadise, Duran as Duelist

I think this is the party I'm least sure of; It's pretty hard to go wrong with the combination of Dark Hawk + Light Lise and Duelist hits like a freight train, but I worry that relying as Vanadise as a main healer is going to be tough. Especially since she only gets Heal Light and Tinkle Rain on the 2nd class change, and making both MT will take an item slot. Other than that though this has stat downs, stat ups, elemental sabers, Anti-Magic and really good attacking power.

Feedback and help greatly appreciated!