rpschamp

I agree; I was thinking a Vanadis/Star Lancer split on recovery spells and sabres would be a great way to distinguish Lise's light classes. I just think the class with the elemental final weapon should be the class that gets the sabres. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by her kit being too complete, but If you think Vanadis is overpowered, just remove Tinkle Rain; she would have recovery options on par with Paladin and Warrior Monk. I also agree that Magic Shield is a bit of a hodgepodge, but the MP recovery effect is very useful and enables some low intelligence builds. If anything, the spell should be renamed (and its effects maybe reoriented) but I don't think that's possible. On Lise equipping shields, I will defer to the judgment of players who have completed the game multiple times with Lise and Duran. As a novice player on this mod, shields represent an area where Duran has increased adaptability over Lise. Giving Lise extra options, especially options that change her role, would make me even less likely to choose Duran (unless he gets his Level 1 tech fixed!).

I would not give her shields, and I would remove Tinkle Rain. Vanadis would be a solution for minimal functionality in healing and sabers, only excelling in buffs, kind of a catch-all for support. Paladin would have the advantage with aggro shields, Anti-Magic, and Magic Shield, making him more useful for magic-oriented teams. Saint Saber is not as good as all four basic elemental sabers, but it's better than any single one of them. I would see these two classes as reasonably well balanced. I agree though that there's no real need to improve Vanadis. I was offering an alternate take on the class, the elemental warrior or magic knight. My main point was that giving her shields would distract from her role as master cheerleader and conflate her role with Duran's.

I guess what I would want to avoid is Duran and Lise becoming too similar. As physical damage dealers, Hawk and Kevin are different enough due to their different approaches, Hawk with multi-target options and Kevin focusing on the rushdown. As magical damage dealers, Angela and Carlie are different enough through their focus on pure offense vs. mixed offense/defense. As tanks, Duran functions as a traditional tank with his aggro shields, while Lise increases the tank-ability of all characters through her buffs. If you start giving her shields then I'm afraid their roles would blur together.

Yes, it would bring Vanadis closer to Bishop and Sage as well. Bishop and Sage have Holy Ball though, one of the best damage spells in the game and acquired early, so light Carlie still has a niche. Also, depending on which final light class light Carlie chooses, she will either become a better melee fighter or caster than Lise and still end up with a direct damage advantage. Because of Vanadis's increased buffing power, it might be better to rebalance Lise's final class stats, trading Vanadis's max strength with Dragon Master's (and maybe Star Lancer's with Fenrir Knight's). The main purpose of giving Lise the basic sabers would be to create more options for team building (especially for magic-oriented teams), and making Vanadis self-sufficient in a limited way would be a nice bonus.

Also, on the Lise-shield topic: I feel like the shield is Duran's niche. Plus, spears are two-handed, and I'm thinking it would be difficult to program a shield onto Lise's sprite (though I could be wrong). One option that could be interesting for Vanadise would be sabers from the four basic elements (which would also make her self-sufficient for her final weapon). You could take away Tinkle Rain to balance this, giving her recovery options equivalent to the Paladin but with more buff spells as opposed to Paladin's shield options, Saint Saber (arguably the best saber), Anti Magic, and Magic Shield (which is an awesome spell). You could also make everything single-target if you think this overpowers her.

No need; I managed to pull 8 ??? seeds, 6 from farming Papa Potos and 2 just from fighting through the cave. From these 8 seeds I managed to pull all 6 class change items, which I consider pretty lucky since the RNG was harder to jostle than I anticipated. With a 1/10 chance to pull a ??? seed (wearing 2 Beastman Collars), I must have farmed about 60 Papa Potos, resetting between each to limit the exp gain. All in a night's work! The jazzy music helped. So, I am nearing my second class change and would like some input on final classes. I'm running dark Hawk, light Lise, and light Angela (the first two deathless; thanks Gorva). I probably can't choose wrong with this group, but I am thinking about two teams in particular: 1) Ninja Master, Vanadise, Arch Mage: This one seems obvious. Mind Up and Mind Down for Arch Mage already getting a 200% bonus on weaknesses with six elements, Anti Magic to support Ninja Master, and recovery spells on Vanadise. Multi-target Fire Jutsu followed by level 2 spells to clear screens. No sabers, though; attacking would be mainly to keep enemies occupied during casting. With two casters, though, this would be mostly up to Vanadise. 2) Nightblade, Star Lancer, Grand Divina: This one seems more fun and possibly more adaptable. All three characters have stronger attack to make use of Grand Divina's saber spells (60% attack bonus on weaknesses). Grand Divina does not get the extra 30% (extra 80% for weaknesses) spell boost from Arch Mage's level 2 spells, but she has Mind Up and Mind Down to support her; plus, her spells come out faster, and so she may be able to get twice as many spells out which would make up the damage. No Anti Magic to support Ninja Master, but the ignore physical immunity weapon and the spell level boost armor should help him get around this. Two options for silencing, one single-target and faster and one multi-target and slower, and Aura Wave as well to support the fighters. Grand Divina really stands out to me as a fun class on this team: every one of her spells is useful, and she gets 18! For this team, I could switch out Nightblade for Ninja Master to help with screen clearing (although Nightblade's upgraded multi-target Shuriken or FST plus Grand Divina's spells might be enough), and it's not clear to me which of these two classes has the better final weapon, although on paper Ninja Master's seems more interesting. I could also switch out Star Lancer for Vanadise if the extra recovery options, saber-able summon, and FST are worth sacrificing the multi-target silence, Aura Wave, and higher attack. Any advice from people with experience with these final classes would be appreciated!

I see... the balance is important. I was thinking the cooldown was so bad it must account for +strength, hit, crit. In general terms of combat, I don't think that swinging wildly around will result in critical hits. Critical hits are incisive and require concentration... a carefully aimed shot from a sniper is more likely to hit home than a shot fired hurriedly with the main purpose to outshoot the enemy. This is a minor criticism. I am loving every minute of this game, and of all the areas to enjoy I am spending the evening in Seaside Cave collecting ??? seeds and Poto junk. Four beers in and two ??? seeds to go. I think I can make it to three before I pass out?

Then just a minor criticism (extended pun ++): I would interpret strong attacks as a focused attack (a strike) and quick attacks as less focused (a fend). A focused attack should take more energy, and so should more likely result in the desired result, including a critical hit. Quicker attacks resulting in more critical hits implies that the extra damage somehow comes from less focus... then why focus? In the simplest sense, the strength of the attack should lie along one axis. And if a critical hit is harder to achieve, then it should not result from a cheaper swing.

Just for clarification, because I assumed it was a typo: Do strong attacks increase or decrease chance for critical hits? I assumed anything that would increase hit chance would not reduce critical hit chance. Or do I need to improve my critical reading?

For me, the basic difference is whether I want to generate damage with the attack or simply use knockback to control the field. I find quick attacks to be useful for keeping incoming enemies out of range for melee damage, for instance, if Angela is casting a spell that will kill the enemy and I just want to guard her and avoid taking damage while she gets the spell out (I find this works especially well with Hawk, who can basically keep his double swing going constantly). They can also be used to quickly build up points for a level 2/3 tech. Otherwise, I tend to use strong attacks for general damage purposes.

Yeah, undead armor is not really useful here due to the length of the battle and need to heal. Unless you have both Angela and Carlie spamming Holy Ball, I think the only way to win this battle completely deathless at this point in the game is to stack Red Moon Horns until Death Spell doesn't work. Instead, I just re-fought the battle until Death Spell landed on Angela, who should benefit least often from the deathless weapon melee enhancement. On a side note, I have come to appreciate my Chibikko bug. I happened to trigger it right before the boss fight, and I have to say, the psychedelic landscape of random flashing fluorescent characters made fighting a less challenging boss like Gorva much more exciting. It turns out that saving and resetting restores the game to normal, so as long as I'm willing to play with through the crazy visuals, I can keep my progress when it's important. In the future, I may use the Chibikko Hammer to intentionally trigger this effect during parts of the game that tend to drag. At some point I'll try to figure out how to record the effect so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

Gorva's Death Spell - Is there any way to avoid or resist this at this point in the game (Ghost Ship) apart from stacking Red Moon Horns?

It has always seemed weird to me that Duran and Angela only hit once with their level 1 techs. They both clearly take two swings, and either swing causes a hit, but both swings seem to count together as one extended swing, and an enemy will never take two hits from them. Angel's tech is even called Double Attack, I believe. From someone who has played with the code, is there any clue as to why this is? Are their techs bugged, or is the animation just a relic from some stage in the coding where Duran and Angela were intended to hit twice with their techs? If I were reprogramming this game, this is one of the first things I would try to fix, so it makes me suspect that it is not readily fixable.

Well, I always suspected that the missing second hit was unintended; otherwise, I could not understand the reason Kevin and Hawk would be designed for so much more melee damage, especially since both Duran and Kevin have similar spell utility on their light paths with Heal Light and Tinkle Rain, and Hawk can reach higher damage through his stat down spells. Giving Duran a second hit on his tech but not his normal attack would have put him on a middle ground where he reached his techs more slowly but then teched harder due to his higher strength stat, as he does with his level 2 and 3 techs.

I'm trying decide on final classes for light Lise and light Angela for two teams. Two questions: 1) Does Freya return full exp if you kill the enemy outright with it, rather than first inducing chibikko? 2) Is there a damage reduction for spells cast on your own team for sabers using Grand Divina's final weapon?

Hmm.... The problem for me with an evasion build is that if I don't pump up my physical defense, Bill & Ben's techs hit for over half my life, meaning that if they happen to target the same character, I'm done. Speed Up is an option, though Lise is way too slow at this point for the spell to be useful, especially with Earth Jutsu ready to negate it. I usually sell all my Bird's Scales for extra cash.... Maybe I'll start saving them for the early game next time!

I agree that Jewel Eater is tough for where he is. I think what makes him especially tough is that he can hit hard both magically and physically, so you have to be prepared for both. Similar to Bill & Ben, keeping your HP high is crucial. But with Bill & Ben it just seemed that those attacks come so much more quickly; I take my eyes off of Angela's HP for three seconds and lo and behold, she's down at 15%! You have to react almost instantly, and I think I ended up using at least three times as many items in my fight against Bill & Ben as with any previous boss. I would definitely rank Jewel Eater as a tough boss, though (my girlfriend lost it when I threw my controller down and yelled at the screen "This f---ing mole!"). The Genova fight can be made easier if you manage to time your MT spells and level 2 techs effectively. I usually try to control the character with a MT level 2 tech, and chain that with a MT Holy Ball when he summons a fresh batch of a-holes. As long as I keep up the attack between summons he usually goes down without too much of a problem. The nice thing about the Genova fight is that when he's putting his effort into summoning and buffing his minions, he's not focusing his attack directly on you, giving your characters not involved with the minions a chance to get some uncontested damage.

It's interesting that you thought Bill & Ben were easier than the prior bosses; I actually thought this was clearly the hardest boss battle up to this point, because of how hard and how frequently they hit (including their techs which they often end up chaining). I've never tried this, but I wonder if it's possible to silence them with the silence weapons?

Change of topic, but I just wanted to mention how much I love the first Bill & Ben fight in this remake. After the first class change, the stat bump and MT magic upgrades make it seem like the game just got a lot easier. Genova is a pushover if you have MT Holy Ball, but then come Bill & Ben with their incessant physical attacks, Thunder Jutsus, and powerful tech chaining. If you are attempting a deathless run, this fight becomes much more difficult as you basically need to keep your HP above 75% or so to avoid any surprises. I like the new dynamic for this fight in this remake. Previously, the ninjas could outrun and corner you, but now, you can run circles around them, which is a bit ironic in a fight against ninja bosses. I suppose this is the trick to keeping their physical attacks focused on just one teammate at a time. I've found the other most consistent way to mitigate their damage in a deathless run is physical defense armor to protect against their techs, their most powerful attacks, plus a ton of Stardust Herbs to cancel their Thunder Jutsu effects. Again ironically, Angela is my rock in this fight, as she can blast off consistent damage and keep the fight advancing at a regular pace. She is rather vulnerable during casting, but you can keep your other fighters on the other side of them and again avoid being crowded by their physical attacks, or lead or push them away if necessary. This is one of the fights that I believe would benefit most from having two or three human players to enhance your mobility and better control the space.

Playing light Lise for the first time on your remake. Just after the first class change, expected to learn Mind Up and Power Up with 12 and 13 Spirit, but did not happen. Level 22, 13 Spirit, no new spells after Protect Up and Speed Up (learned by Level 20). Are there other spell requirements not listed in the documentation?

Ah, I assumed because I learned Fireball and Ice Smash that I would learn the other spells from those spirits. Thanks for the clarification! By the way, I never solved that Chibikko bug where the screen freaks out when one of my team members is afflicted and then attacks. If I manage to cure their status before they attack, then there's no problem (Chibikko hammer, thank god), otherwise I have to reset. I tried several different sources for the original ROM and nothing seems to make a difference. I guess nobody else has reported this, I wonder if it's a problem with my specific hardware setup....

I have always kept demon statues in my storage rather than my active item ring, and the notes say there is a limit of 5 in your storage, so I have always sold down to 4 before beating new bosses. Out of curiosity, if I stored them in my active item ring instead, would I still need to sell down to 4, or could I collect 20 of them (plus extra in storage) just like any other item?

These seem like they would be great for item farming, but I'd like to clarify how they work: 1) Do the effects stack from multiple collars? 2) Do the effects only apply for the character opening the chest, or do collars on the other characters increase the effect? 3) Approximately how much of an increased chance do you get for a rare item drop per collar?

Tired of picking the Lord every time I play Duran, I would like to start a new group based around the Swordmaster, one of Duran's more interesting classes, and I am brainstorming potential partners. The Ninja Master should be able to help with the Swordmaster's final weapon, but what about a third teammate? Heal Light is conspicously missing. Among the early healers, Carlie or Kevin seem somehow redundant with sabers or attack power. Lise could provide the missing buffs and a later Heal Light, but I can't think of a use for her final weapon besides maybe spamming darts or other cheap consumables. Angela would also be fun here and make the team extremely offensive, but her only class with Heal Light would be largely redundant in terms of sabers and buffs. Has anybody built a successful or unsuccessful team around the Swordmaster? Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated!

Also, I may have caught an error in the documentation: do Dart and Hand Axe really do the same damage (1.5 × LVL), or does Hand Axe do more?