rpschamp

I decided to go with Vanadies and Arch Mage. Dark Carlie would work too, but I prefer Angela. If Hawk's jutsus worked against MDef I'd consider the Ninja Master, but Duran will have enough good weapons to choose from to justify sacrificing his equipment slots to max out his final weapon. Planning this team also got me thinking more about the Dragon Master. Propagating weakness to Moon Saber would be great for fighters to keep their HP up against bosses, though this would probably work better overall with God Hand.

So one quick question, because I've yet to try these: do SPI and INT weapons hit against magical or physical defense? This could be a way around monsters with high physical defense, especially for characters like Hawk who's magic hits against physical defense.

Yeah, upon rethinking, Vanadies should be his essential teammate. (Are there any purchaseable physical items she can make use of apart from darts, hand axes, and pumpkin bombs?) The third would be either Ninja Master for all debuffs, Analyze, and strong saberable fighting or Arch Mage for Power/Mind Down, Antimagic, and strong elemental magic damage. Hawk would be great with the sabers, but Angela would help a lot with damage type variety since all of Hawks spells go against physical defense.... (With Arch Mage's final weapon casting against weakness the buff and saber boosts are essentially doubled!)

Sounds good. One more technical question, this time about spells that hit with multiple elements, like Rainbow Dust. How do those multiple elements interact with enemy resistances and weaknesses? Do the multipliers stack? For instance, if the enemy happens to be weak against one element and strong against another, will the multiplier be 1.5 x 0.5 = 0.75? Or if the enemy is weak against all four elements after a Dragon Master hits them with an empowered Anti-Magic, will the multiplier be 1.5^4 = 5.065? This would be an absolutely killer combination.

So before I decide on Duran's final light class, I'd like to ask what kind of non-elemental damage Turn Undead does with the Paladin's final weapon. Spell level? Fixed? (I can't imagine it's 999.) Also, what's the max bonus damage for the Lord's final weapon? It looks like it would be great for boss battles.

Also, can self-target spells, like the Magus's Mind Up or the Rogue's Speed Up, be upgraded to multitarget?

That's interesting, I seemed to get a 10% damage boost with and only with Fireball when I equipped the fire-element one I got from the Dwarf Village. I will test in more detail later.

Are the accessories that grant weapon element function the same as saber spells, i.e. do they increase damage of spells cast from that element? (I tested this and it seems to work.)

What does "spell upgrade: curse" do? I apologize if I missed this somewhere in the documentation.

Just an update, I ended up scrapping those teams and simplifying my approach with just two teams I think have more creative potential: 1) Paladin/Lord, Wanderer, Necromancer: I'm really intrigued by the damage potential of the Necromancer. Her skills are generally high MP, but Paladin can support that with Magic Shield, or Lord with Speed Up in case I decide to give her Rune Earrings. Necromancer also supplies Paladin's missing Tinkle Rain and gives another saber option. Wanderer can support Necromancer with Mind Up and Paladin/Lord with Aura Wave. If it looks like I'll need extra physical damage, Aura Wave will work great with the Lord's final weapon and level 2/3 techs. Power Up is missing but Paladin/Lord can use seeds. Also, both Wanderer and Necromancer have Half Vanish for high MP defense battles. 2a) Vanadis, Dervish, Arch Mage: This team has everything except elemental sabers: healing, all buffs/debuffs, Anti-Magic, Aura Wave, strong physical attack, strong magical attack with element diversity. I was never a fan of Vanadis's summon, but if Chibikko gives you experience now, it might actually be useful. In fact, this team may be TOO good, in which case I may go with: 2b) Dragon Master/Fenrir Knight, God Hand/Warrior Monk, Rune Master: Angela would have better sniping ability here and elemental sabers to support the team. Kevin would get Heal Light at the first class change. Dragon Master may be the better choice here for Anti-Magic, but Rune Master may be able to snipe most enemies that need it, and Fenrir Knight's final weapon looks amazing for support. God Hand for Tinkle Rain or Warrior Monk for Mind Up, whichever seems more useful by my second class change. (I also considered a strategy based around Death Hand's final weapon and Lise's debuffs, but in the end it seemed impractical and maybe a little slow when Kevin could just be using his Power Up'ed/sabered level 1 tech instead.) The disadvantages here would be no Protect Up or Speed Up and no Aura Wave, but I can buy seeds for the buffs if necessary and Kevin in general seems fine with his level 1 tech. Also, no Pink Typhoon. In the end, this team has more holes than the previous, but it may have better damage potential and may ultimately be more fun to play. Thanks for your helpful responses and insight. Hopefully by the first class change I'll have decided which 2) to go with.

Thanks for the advice! What is the Dervish's Berserker wolf form, by the way? Is it a buffed version of his normal wolf form, or is it an entirely new color palette? Is it on automatic attack or no spells or techs?

So, I'm nearing my first class change and I need to make a decision. My plans for my final two teams are pretty set, but my first team of Duran, Hawk, and Angela has some options. Please rank and/or let me know what you think about these potential teams: 1) Paladin, Ninja Master, Grand Divina: Two healers, two MT buffs, all debuffs with Anti-Magic to support them, and two instant casters with Level 1 MT spells, one hitting physical defense and the other magical defense. The strategy would be to spam these spells. No Aura Wave to support the Paladin though, and Speed Up ends up being be wasted on my two instant casters, except for Double Spell. 2) Lord, Ninja Master, Arch Mage: Similar to previous with one less healer and same buffs and debuffs, but now Speed Up will better serve Arch Mage with her Level 2 spells. Arch Mage can support Lord with Aura Wave on bosses, but her time might be better spent casting damage spells. Ninja Master and Arch Mage MT casting now staggered which may be better (or worse) to keep enemies back. No Turn Undead on non-undead enemies but I never loved the over-level strategies anyways. 3) Paladin, Wanderer, Arch Mage: One healer, no debuffs before the second class change, and no instant MT support, but now the two most important buffs and debuffs that don't need Anti-Magic support, including Mind Up to support Arch Mage, and two classes with Aura Wave to support Paladin so the more important damage spell caster can keep at her task. Also two classes with Anti-Magic for more caster options or group treatment if necessary. The ability to inflict poison status should also be useful in several situations. 4) Lord, Wanderer, Arch Mage: Similar to previous but now three buffs and three debuffs. Speed Up will serve both Arch Mage and Wanderer well. Aura Wave on Lord will be less useful for groups but more useful on bosses and single enemies I'd prefer to snipe. There is a lot of skill overlap here but the skills are all good, and the team synergy seems strong. Right now, my preference leans towards 2) or 4), with 1) behind and 3) in the rear. The immediate decision I have to make is whether to make Hawk light or dark at the first class change. I'm intrigued by the Wanderer's potential, and Mind Up would be great, but losing the debuffs at the first class change and MT Shuriken at the second seems like a lot to give up.

You are right about Duelist (there is still a chance I may choose him for my first team with dark Hawk and light Angela, especially now that I see that Grand Divina's final weapon can give me Saint Saber via Holy Ball). Duran in general is much more fun in your mod with strong and weak slash options and counter attacks, though I haven't played far enough to see how much more useful Level 3 techs have become. For light Hawk, I've been thinking that throwing Moon and Leaf sabers on the Ranger would give him an attractive early niche (HP and MP recovery) to balance against the Ninja's (debuff options). It would also fit with light Hawk's Moon/Leaf theme. Dark Kevin is more difficult, but perhaps more buffs or debuffs is the way to go. SD3 delivered on it's basic battle engine and overall design ideas; it's the details and execution that were underdeveloped or rushed. Which is why your mod is so exciting! (Unfortunately there's not much at this point that can be done to fix the stories, which could have been MUCH more interesting in terms dark/light branching or character interactions.)

You're right that not everyone needs to cover the fundamentals. It just seems that with so many fundamentals to cover, including healing, buffs/debuffs, physical damage, magic damage, elemental damage, and dark/light damage, it's rarely the case that two party members cover enough of them to completely free up the third. I actually see this as more of a problem with Duran and Kevin than with Hawk: in how many cases is going dark with either of them a better option than going light, seeing that their light classes get healing (at the first class change!) and (in general) better buffs? Going light with these guys frees up other would-be healers to go dark, often enabling them to cover more of the fundamentals like magic damage or debuffs. I'm not suggesting that it's never beneficial for Duran or Kevin to go dark, or for Hawk to go light, it just seems that there are fewer groups for which, considering the entire course of the game, this actually makes sense. I'm just thinking about this from a design perspective. How does the game entice players to explore other options? And I also get that choosing the best strategy is not always the main point: Duelist, Dervish, and Rogue just look like fun classes to play. Mostly, I want you to know that I appreciate your work and vision with this mod. I loved Secret of Mana as a teenager, and the sequel always held so much promise in terms of gameplay and mechanics. Getting a chance to play this and talk theory with the (re)designer is a total thrill for me :-)

So I switched up my teams one last time, one team per quest: Quest 1: Team Sass - Duran, Hawk, Angela. This team is rocking big attitudes and big hair. Duran and Angela will go light, Hawk will go dark. The light classes will give me some options for heal and support at the second class change, but I'd love to pair Grand Divina with Ninja Master and just spam low MP sudden cast spells all day. Paladin or Arch Mage may be required though for Anti-magic to support Hawk's jutsus. Quest 2: Team Spirit - Kevin, Lise, Carlie. This team holds it together with strong fundamentals. Kevin and Lise will go light, Carlie will go dark. Again the light classes will give me options for heal and support. Carlie will almost certainly go Necromancer to pair with Lise's stat-up spells, so I'm thinking God Hand for Kevin for the missing Saint Saber (especially if I can multi-target it plus Heal Light with the Whitelight Ring). Quest 3: The Dream Team: Lise, Kevin, Angela. This team is the team I've always wanted to try but never had the motivation until this mod. Kevin will go light, Lise and Angela will go dark. I'm thinking Dragon Master, Warrior Monk, and Rune Master. This team will be very strong in the elements and excel in both physical and magical damage, with Lise having the option to work as more of a caster. One question: Did you ever consider giving the Wanderer single-target Heal Light and Tinkle Rain? Or Moon and Leaf Sabers? All of the other characters have at least one Heal Light option: Duran, Kevin, and Carlie at the first class change, and Lise and Angela at the second. This would add Hawk to that second group with a limited healing option at the second class change and make him stronger in terms of basic support. It seems that the Wanderer, even spamming Half Vanish with his final weapon at a 320 damage cap, may have difficulty excelling in terms of damage, and his support options, while useful in many situations, don't cover the fundamentals: healing, stat recovery, buffs/debuffs, and sabers. Increasing his viability as a support character would make him much more useful on many teams, as you wouldn't need to make room for an extra healer.

That would be it. I don't remember that spell being so powerful in the original. Looks like Paladin has it too. I was thinking of casting it on a Necromancer since her most powerful spells cost so much MP. It will be a choice between Paladin and Lord for her partner on Duran's quest; I was initially leaning Lord but now I'm leaning Paladin. What would you suggest between Paladin/Wanderer/Necromancer and Lord/Wanderer/Necromancer? With Paladin casting Anti-Magic I could go Rogue instead for extra damage, but I would lose the Poison and Mind Up. I know Bishop is always a great choice but I want to try Dark Carlie on this team. I switched my initial plan to three groups, one for each final area, and my plan is to run the above group, Dervish/Arch Mage/Sage, and Dragon Master/Warrior Monk/Rune Master. All of these groups are pretty magic intensive but that's my preferred play style. One of the things I love about your mod is that more class combinations at least appear on paper to be more viable. From these groups, I get to try 9 of the 12 first class changes. I'm missing only Dark Duran, Light Lise, and Dark Hawk, which I know is a classic team itself and considered running for a fourth group, but in this mod it seems that buffs are not enough and I'd be hurting for healing and a way to deal with high physical defense.

Thanks for all your responses so far. I also noticed in one of the previous posts a reference to Carlie's "energy shields" which increase max MP by 10 and double MP regen, but I couldn't find anything like this in the documentation. These would be greatly helpful in the team I'm planning. What items were the poster referring to and do they exist in the current version of the mod?

So for physical spells like jutsus or traps, does Power Up or Mind Up affect their strength? I would assume that any spell that worked against physical defense would be enhanced by modifiers that increase physical attack.

I noticed when reading through the forums that Hawk's jutsu spells hit against physical defense. Are all of Hawk's spells like this, i.e. trap spells or breath spells, or is this something specific to jutsu spells? What about Carlie's summon spells? Also, does LVL damage for consumable spell items imply that the strength of these spells is stat-independent?

Sorry for the flood of posts, I'm new to forum-ing and still learning the decorum. I will edit in the future. Since I can't delete the previous posts, I combine them here: 1) Vanadis's final weapon is described as giving her non-elemental spells the element of her saber, but her only non-elemental spell is Freya (besides Heal Light). This would imply the purpose of the weapon is to enhance Freya. But this spell reduces enemies to Chibikko state. What would be then be the purpose of having this spell do more damage, unless just for boss fights or enemies with immunity? (Forgive my ignorance, I've never played Vanadis since Star Lancer seemed so much better in the original, so I may not understand exactly how Freya works.) 2) Can dark-path Duran equip shields in this mod? 3) On the Wanderer topic, I watched some of the hardtype playthrough on YT and saw him regularly dealing much more than 320 with Half Vanish. Unless this was an older version of the mod, it seems that the 320 damage cap must be applied before other multipliers. Can you confirm this is still valid for the current version? 4) I think your formula for the double spell damage chance from the Rogue's final weapon may be backwards in the mechanics. You have it listed as "if RNG[0..127] > LUCK+3: damage×2", but this would imply that greater luck leads to less of a chance for double damage. Unless this is the point? If you can and wish to delete the previous posts, please go right ahead.

I'm also wondering about the Rogue's final weapon. Doubling his spell damage with luck could be a lot of fun. And it turns landmine into a MT shuriken? I previously shied away from this class but it's looking more attractive now. I suppose it's weakness relative to Hawk's other classes is that it lacks any debuffs or support for other characters.

I could be wrong but I'm guessing that 320 damage means a lot more on the hardest difficulty level than it does on normal, where other characters might be able to melee that damage more easily or cast it more quickly, meaning that Hawk's Wanderer is a class that scales favorably with difficulty relative to other classes.

3) This will be only true for the highest difficulty though, correct? Or does that 320 cap scale with the player damage bonus of lower difficulty levels?

Hi Praetarius, I'm having a great time with this. I tested out a few teams and decided to restart with a new approach to team building. I'm finding balance and multiple options to be much more important in this mod than in the original. I have some questions about a few of the final classes as I restart: 1) Swordmaster: His final weapon being dependent on critical hits, does he rank among Duran's final classes in terms of damage per time? 2) Duelist: You mentioned that his final weapon runs on MP - in what way? I could not find any note on this in the documentation. 3) Wanderer: I'm not seeing much of an endgame for this class, unless his Half Vanish becomes close to instant. It seems that his abilities have been spread out to other classes with better damage or support options. 4) More generally, do you have any summary of the strengths, weaknesses, or changes for each of the classes in this mod? This might be useful for someone just getting into this mod, with or without experience from the previous game. Thanks!

I repatched it in Windows Vista/7 in case Windows 8 was giving me problems with one of the programs. I ended up choosing these four teams to give me all of the classes by the first class change: Quest 1: D/L, A/D, C/D Quest 2: K/D, H/L, C/L Quest 3-1: H/D, L/L, A/L Quest 3-2: L/D, D/D, K/L I spread out the Heal Lights, Anti-Magics, and Buff/Debuffs as much as possible without reusing classes while giving each team a focus. These will also allow me to test out some different strategies in your mod. I definitely have ideas for most of the second class changes but am leaving them open for now; I may test a few at that point. I just got started this week and am excited to make some progress. Great job on this, it has really made me rethink this game!